organic autos on gas lantern lighting

grapefruitmarmalade said:

what lights are those?

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cheap chinese COB LEDs, 2 x "cold white (6000-6500K)" (that was all the specs they had haha) and 1 x "warm white (3000-3500K)" - a friend had them lying about so I used them to solve my initial heat problem.
I'm building the fixture for the 4 CXB3590 3500K as we speak though, it'll be interesting to see whether they do better (I sure hope so haha)

calliandra said:

cheap chinese COB LEDs, 2 x "cold white (6000-6500K)" (that was all the specs they had haha) and 1 x "warm white (3000-3500K)" - a friend had them lying about so I used them to solve my initial heat problem.
I'm building the fixture for the 4 CXB3590 3500K as we speak though, it'll be interesting to see whether they do better (I sure hope so haha)

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Noice. Are those 36V CXBs? Are you getting them from China?

grapefruitmarmalade said:

Noice. Are those 36V CXBs? Are you getting them from China?

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yep - and no I got them from Australia lmao (from cutter, the growmau5 type buildup with passive heatsinks, just with my own drivers)

calliandra said:

yep - and no I got them from Australia lmao (from cutter, the growmau5 type buildup with passive heatsinks, just with my own drivers)

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Cool I'd love to get my hands on those but it just seems like such a hassle to import them from a different country. Plus the importer tax/markup and unusual delivery delays. Good luck with your build

calliandra said:

Absolutely
What got me to want to try this GLR with autos nonetheless were other advantages the GLR brings with it: resource savings and plant health. I touched on that a bit further up in this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/t/organic-autos-on-gas-lantern-lighting.911646/#post-12672591
Here's my reasoning:

On the one hand, I got reading about how indoor cannabis grows are total energy wasters.
We use inefficient lights in terms of the wattage we pull and the relatively small amount of it that gets converted to light that is actually usable for the plant.
And we run them for very long times. Light times we see NOwhere on Earth where cannabis grows naturally.

On the other, photosynthesis has a light and a dark phase, and both are necessary for the complete process.
I have this "oh not sure that's really good?" gut feeling about running lights 24/0 or even 20/4 as is very common for autos, or even the "usual" veg 18/6 for that matter. (and yes, I have been meaning to refresh my memory on the exact steps in photosynthesis to confirm or reject this gut feeling, just haven't gotten round to it )
Juxtapose this to the mention of plants getting visibly "tired" in the course of long light times, which I've stumbled over a few times on my reading sprees, and the reports of people using the GLR (photoperiodically and not) as to how alive and healthy their plants are.
So somewhere in there is a "scientific" explanation as to why plants would be more vital when run on the GLR (which gives the plant plenty of dark phase in comparison to our usual schedules).
For now however I am just relying on my intuition, allowing myself to be impatiently curious, and trying it out

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With all due respect calliandra this is just incorrect. In the case of carbon 3 plants, photosynthesis does not have a dark phase. Carbon 3 based plants like cannabis complete the Calvin cycle without the need for a dark cycle. As far as autos go, ruderalis is native to the far northern latitudes that commonly have periods of 24 hour light or near 24 hour light and is the reason they have adapted to flower without a dark period. Photosensitive plants do not require a dark period for photosynthesis whatsoever, in their case it's required to build a hormone called ethylene. This hormone is required for flowering in photosensitive plants. Autos do not have this need.
While I can see the desire to run reduced light cycles to reduce energy consumption, in autos case it can be counter productive.

All my autos grow from seed to harvest under 24hour light. If darkness was required for them to complete the photosynthesis process, then clearly they would not survive to harvest.

%95 of plants on earth are classified as C3 plants, the fact is plants have adapted to COPE with dark periods. The small percentage of Carbon 4/CAM plants have adapted to use dark periods for growth and cannot flourish without them.

Resinhound said:

With all due respect calliandra this is just incorrect. In the case of carbon 3 plants, photosynthesis does not have a dark phase. Carbon 3 based plants like cannabis complete the Calvin cycle without the need for a dark cycle. As far as autos go, ruderalis is native to the far northern latitudes that commonly have periods of 24 hour light or near 24 hour light and is the reason they have adapted to flower without a dark period. Photosensitive plants do not require a dark period for photosynthesis whatsoever, in their case it's required to build a hormone called ethylene. This hormone is required for flowering in photosensitive plants. Autos do not have this need.
While I can see the desire to run reduced light cycles to reduce energy consumption, in autos case it can be counter productive.

All my autos grow from seed to harvest under 24hour light. If darkness was required for them to complete the photosynthesis process, then clearly they would not survive to harvest.

%95 of plants on earth are classified as C3 plants, the fact is plants have adapted to COPE with dark periods. The small percentage of Carbon 4 plants have adapted to use dark periods for growth and cannot flourish without them.

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Thanks so much for this!
When I started reading that the "dark phase" doesn't necessarily require darkness it made me wonder why the 2 phases of photosynthesis are called "light" and "dark" phase in the first place :/
Then I got stuck trying to understand the difference between C3 & C4 plants -- there was this humongous chemical formula in the way, so I dropped it for another day and here we are!

Sooo my reasoning is wrong and what's really going on in my closet is just something like, "oh I can't see anything!" -- "how about you turn the light on?"
o.m.g. lol

But, ethylene? I thought it was florigen? http://www.biology-pages.info/P/Photoperiodism.html#mechanism
(trying to wrap my head around that one at the mo - and that one is a link worth sharing, it's good and clear! ) ethylene's for fruiting I think?

But back to the lights. I wonder if it's strain dependent then whether the GLR will inhibit the plant from full expression. The video I posted at the beginning of this thread was GLR on autos -- and they did fine. Something having to do with the % of ruderalis - the more of it is in there, the more light they will need?

In any case, noted! This could be yet another reason for my grow going so mini - thanks for that!

Florigen is responsible for initiating flowering at the apical tips of shoots. Ethylene is a hormone responsible for female expression and the initiation of flowering. This is why some plants won't show sex until dark periods are introduced. And the same way plants can be reversed with collidiol silver, it blocks production of these hormones. Autos have adapted to their environment to create these hormones naturally without needing darkness. And it's the reason for their short life cycle and why cloning isn't useful for them.
A photosensitive plant can be kept alive pretty much indefinitely under 24 hour light without flowering. An auto cannot it will flower according to its internal processes regardless of light cycles.

At least these are the ways I've come to understand it.

Irregardless of complicated hormonal factors, it's pretty well established cannabis and other c3 plants can flourish under 24hour light. And some species don't need it at all to carry out senescence.

Hey up Calli, any updates, have you chopped em yet?

and I thought 'the gas lantern routine' was just for photo periodic cannabis...?

good luck

vostok said:

and I thought 'the gas lantern routine' was just for photo periodic cannabis...?
good luck

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haha yeah, if the 2nd run with my new lights doesn't show any better results, that's the way I'll use it in future again - never mind the grow wizards out there who may have documented amazing results LOL
Cheers!

TheStickMan said:

Hey up Calli, any updates, have you chopped em yet?

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Indeed, the Pineapple Express is chopped and drying, looks like she may outperform the expected 5 grams by a gram or two haha
She ended up getting a bit of the CXB light - though it was too late to make a difference for her - because I was getting anxious to get the better light to the young ones asap
It's been a chaotic transition lol - the closet before chop (five days ago) with new AND old lights:

So I finally got my COB LED 2.0 going yesterday eve.

Originally, I wanted to build a fully modular system in which I have the COBs+heatsink+driver on independent trays I can hook up in any combo I may need. What that would've looked like:

BTW I took the reflectors & diffusers off straight away and am letting them run naked.

Having built that prototype, I changed my mind about modularity and went back to an all wood construction. If I really do want to reconfigure, it's really hardly any work to disassemble and rearrange them. So not worth the pain of working with aluminium parts, which I found isn't my favorite material at all!

So here we are today, the wood fixture still needs some work (and the modular prototype replacing), but at least all my plants are now getting the Cree light.
The closet garden, with the Pineapple Express hung up to dry and the tomato still doing crazy stuff in the middle (seriously time to chop it sheez!):



When I chopped the Pineapple Express, I noticed the leaves were really thick, like leathery, and when crumbled up they were brittle and literally "broke" like shards of glass - a really weird consistency I haven't seen to now - which I am attributing to the somehow-kinda-off spectrum of the chinese COBs.
Along the same lines, the calendula's flowers had a really weird structure as compared to their outdoor siblings.

So I'm really excited to see how her next flowers will look like and if the change in lights will make a difference!

Meanwhile, the Berry Bomb is actually showing signs of draining her leaves to finish off (which the PE never did).


She also started foxtailing, a bit more than the PE, so I'm giving her another few days under the new lights, who knows? Her main cola:

A lower bud, foxtailing away:

And the next generation Pineapple Express!
I pulled out "Righty", the weaker of the seedlings, today (and still feel bad about it - argh I hate killing plants!)
- so sorry and RIP!



"Lefty" is at day 14 and beginning to grow her 4th tier:

She's slightly further ahead than her predecessor at the mo.

I must've brought in some pests with the mulching - leaves are getting chewed but I can't see who's doing it.
Also the fungus gnats drama continues on and on (though they're not doing any damage) ... steinernema feltiae nematodes don't do it for me at all I've done multiple runs (and yes, they were alive, I checked under the microscope) only to find the fungus gnat population exploding LOL.
I may take that mulch out and let the topsoil dry out/cover with sand to get rid of them...

In future, I definitely want to get a nice wormcast cycle going in my system and run all additives through it before they go in the closet - in fact, it's the very next thing I'm going to build as I am really missing having good compost to work with!!!
I would sooo like to give Lefty some compost tea just about now, especially as foliar to build a good protective barrier against whatever is living in the mulch and snacking off her leaves.
Ah patience!

Oh, and it may be bad for the comparison, but I'm tending towards NOT topping her (which I would have to do today to give her the same treatment as her predecessor). Since she's growing very much off-center, I think it'll be better use of the space if I just LST her sideways across the pot
Cheers!

calliandra said:

And the next generation Pineapple Express!
I pulled out "Righty", the weaker of the seedlings, today (and still feel bad about it - argh I hate killing plants!)
- so sorry and RIP!
View attachment 3759416


"Lefty" is at day 14 and beginning to grow her 4th tier:
View attachment 3759415
She's slightly further ahead than her predecessor at the mo.

I must've brought in some pests with the mulching - leaves are getting chewed but I can't see who's doing it.
Also the fungus gnats drama continues on and on (though they're not doing any damage) ... steinernema feltiae nematodes don't do it for me at all I've done multiple runs (and yes, they were alive, I checked under the microscope) only to find the fungus gnat population exploding LOL.
I may take that mulch out and let the topsoil dry out/cover with sand to get rid of them...

In future, I definitely want to get a nice wormcast cycle going in my system and run all additives through it before they go in the closet - in fact, it's the very next thing I'm going to build as I am really missing having good compost to work with!!!
I would sooo like to give Lefty some compost tea just about now, especially as foliar to build a good protective barrier against whatever is living in the mulch and snacking off her leaves.
Ah patience!

Oh, and it may be bad for the comparison, but I'm tending towards NOT topping her (which I would have to do today to give her the same treatment as her predecessor). Since she's growing very much off-center, I think it'll be better use of the space if I just LST her sideways across the pot
Cheers!

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Could you not get hold of some castings online, to make your aact with? The fising bait industry has caught on to the fact that gardeners can use thier castings and they're available quite cheap now over here. Quality's not as good as homemade, but my plants still liked it

DonBrennon said:

Could you not get hold of some castings online, to make your aact with? The fising bait industry has caught on to the fact that gardeners can use thier castings and they're available quite cheap now over here. Quality's not as good as homemade, but my plants still liked it

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Yeah definitely better than nothing - I may end up sourcing some externally for this round...
I did think of that friend of mine whose bin I fixed over the winter, but I don't like the way she continues to mismanage her worms - she's always on the brink of falling into total anaerobicity (is that even a word? haha) - so her mircoherd is probably not where I would want it...
It's somewhat of a curse being able to check that sort of stuff, gets me all "oh I can't use that" LMAO

I didn't read all this thread, just the first part, but from that my advice would be to not bother with the hour of light in the middle of the 12 hour dark period because it's completely pointless. That's intended to PREVENT flowering of short day plants, meaning it would have an effect if you were growing photoperiod strains. Since it's autos, it has no effect whatsoever, aside from an extra hour of light per day, like if you just used a 13/11 cycle.

I would advise an 18/6 cycle. Some people recommend 20/4 but that's actually the cycle which will keep photoperiod Cannabis plants in a vegetative state indefinitely, rather than the cycle which produces highest growth. It was shown long ago that 18 hour days are most effective. I doubt if that suddenly changed when auto plants were originated. My guess is that people confused the two and now they think 20/4 is better than 18/6. So where's the evidence for that? I haven't seen any.

It's possible that 12/12 would work also work well. I recommend the longer days because that's the only advantage to growing autos indoors, you can get more weight per area because you're pumping more light into them per day. At 12/12 or 12/5.5/1/5.5 there's no advantage over regular photoperiod strains so why pay the extra expense of seeds for every crop when you could clone photoperiods?

You also probably have too much light wattage for the small space and you probably shouldn't have the drivers inside the grow space. It's just extra heat.

BobCajun said:

I didn't read all this thread, just the first part, but from that my advice would be to not bother with the hour of light in the middle of the 12 hour dark period because it's completely pointless. That's intended to PREVENT flowering of short day plants, meaning it would have an effect if you were growing photoperiod strains. Since it's autos, it has no effect whatsoever, aside from an extra hour of light per day, like if you just used a 13/11 cycle.

I would advise an 18/6 cycle. Some people recommend 20/4 but that's actually the cycle which will keep photoperiod Cannabis plants in a vegetative state indefinitely, rather than the cycle which produces highest growth. It was shown long ago that 18 hour days are most effective. I doubt if that suddenly changed when auto plants were originated. My guess is that people confused the two and now they think 20/4 is better than 18/6. So where's the evidence for that? I haven't seen any.

It's possible that 12/12 would work also work well. I recommend the longer days because that's the only advantage to growing autos indoors, you can get more weight per area because you're pumping more light into them per day. At 12/12 or 12/5.5/1/5.5 there's no advantage over regular photoperiod strains so why pay the extra expense of seeds for every crop when you could clone photoperiods?

You also probably have too much light wattage for the small space and you probably shouldn't have the drivers inside the grow space. It's just extra heat.

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Hey Bob, thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts!

I'm totally with you in that automatics will probably do better on 18/6, due to the fact that with ruderalis mixed in, these plants hereditarily tend to expect a short but light intense lifespan - like in the south siberian region they apparently originated from.
The only reason I am following up my experiment with another GLR-lighted automatic anyway is to see whether the improved spectrum from the Crees I just switched to will provide better results than the borrowed cheap chinese cobs I used to get the temps down.

I actually already am an autoperiod person, looking to go regular seeded in the long term, infrastructure allowing, haha This experimenting with autos comes from an idea to have quick auto grows interspacing long-ass photoperiod scrogs (big sativas in little closet haha), so by the end of veg I'd have a little harvest on the side. If I can get a feel for these autos, which indeed are a different creature.

As for the gas lantern routine itself, it does have advantages beyond just preventing flowering. There's the aspect of plant health and vitality too, which is just as beneficial for an automatic as for a photoperiodic strain. I still need to wrap my mind around the science of that, so details pending (unless you want to browse through the links I posted in the GLR post, which I wish I had been more specific about now )

Cheers!

BobCajun talking nonsense again unfortunately, 18/6 has never been proven to provide the best growth for autos...

On the other hand a 24hour light schedule HAS been shown to provide up to 33% more growth over the life of the plant.

It's basic biology that photosynthesis cannot continue during the dark period in carbon 3 plants. Therefore anything that keeps this process active will provide more net growth over the life of the plant.

Photosensitive plants use the dark period for hormonal processes only, these processes are not required in automatics.

Even for photosensitive plants the most hours of light you can use, the more growth you are going to see. This is WHY we see things like Far red before lights off, it extends photosynthesis.

http://www.dutch-passion.com/en/news-and-development/Dutch-passion-think-different-and-autoxtreme-grow-review-under-24-hours-of-daily-light/

Well, the easiest way to resolve this is that you guys link us to the science behind what you're saying
I for one would appreciate it immensely, as I really want to get to the bottom of this!

Link the science? I didn't think the science of photosynthesis was up for dispute. If someone has proof that photosynthesis can continue in complete darkness, then ya I'd like to see that as well. But somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

The fact that photosynthesis can only happen in the presence of light is not in dispute.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/phoc.html