ORGANICS vs SYNTHS i couldn't said it better myself

Weedoozie said:

Beneficial MICRO BACTERIA is your friend in organics people.

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Exactly!

Several years ago I became interested in compost making and picked up a couple books on the matter. Check out: "The Vegetable Gardeners Bible" and "Rodale's Ultimate Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening".
It's incredibly interesting reading and researching about micro-organisms and the complexities of natural organic soil. There is a true symbiotic relationship between plants grown in soil and the micro-organisms that live there. Synthetic fertilizers basically kill all the organisms in the soil and basically create what is known as "Dead Soil".

Im not going to say that these synthetic nutrients do not work, they actually work really well but the problems they cause outweigh any kind of benefits in my opinion.

And does it not bother some people that these synthetic nutes cause pollution, contaminate ground water, cause algae blooms that kill wildlife, etc.???

IMO the point I think he was trying to make, between the 5,000 "you knows", is that hydro optimizes the whole grow function that Mother Nature (or yen, yoda, mao, whoever you believe in) created and that Consistent light,temp and nutes in a near pest-free environment brings out the best in a plant. I find growing in coco (with synthetic nutes) results in a better yielding and better tasting product than utilizing traditional inert media and it tastes equally pleasant and smooth to that of organic soil grows.

Weedoozie said:

Organic wins outdoors with organic soils, compost, beneficial micro bacteria, and sunlight.

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i totaly agree. He wants to talk about big yeilds. Id like him to compare his outcome with my outdoor outcome lol. I bet mine taste just as good if not better as well.

I love to smoke organic herb very much but when it comes to growing for me i like synths because it is more cost effective it has a longer shelf life its easier to get and i can finnish MUCH faster and with a proper flush i can get very tasty herb. I also feel that i can get more potent marijuana with synthetics

Weedoozie said:

Hydro is without soil and without micro bacteria

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That isn't exactly right. I run Great White Shark with my House & Garden nutrients and can tell you from long personal experience that you can cultivate a wonderful little bacteria community atached to the roots like a slimy coating. I go over this in my current journal, so I'll spare you all the explanation here, but bacteria in hydro is not only possible, it's an enormous benefit to the overall health and yield of my plants...you just have to get used to your roots looking different.

thank you for speaking because we need more people that know what their talking about not just blowing smoke out of their ass. beneficial bacteria is not only possible but works well in hydro systems.

SouthernWeed said:

That isn't exactly right. I run Great White Shark with my House & Garden nutrients and can tell you from long personal experience that you can cultivate a wonderful little bacteria community atached to the roots like a slimy coating. I go over this in my current journal, so I'll spare you all the explanation here, but bacteria in hydro is not only possible, it's an enormous benefit to the overall health and yield of my plants...you just have to get used to your roots looking different.

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Did some more research and found you are right to an extent. I don't grow hydro myself but here is what I found:
For hydroponic systems – Mycorrhizae does not do well in hydroponic systems as it is sensitive to the nutrients that are used for hydroponics. For hydroponic systems it is best to use Subculture or Hydroguard. Both these products contain bacillus strains which are well suited to hydroponics even in systems that have high salt contents. Subculture should be applied at a rate of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water/nutrient solution (1 pouch per 50 gallons). The first application of Hydroguard should be 15ml per gallon and maintenance applications at 5-10ml per gallon of nutrient solution. For coco fiber, rockwool and Ready-Gro mediums, both Hydroguard and Subculture should be reapplied 21 days after first application and thereafter every 21 days. For hydroponic systems that use Hydroton rocks, perlite, NFT or aeroponics, the Subculture and Hydroguard should be reapplied every 7 days.

The problem with this is that these products can quickly become very expensive/difficult to maintain. If you're not a hydro grower extraordinaire, it'll be a real challenge. If a hydro grower does manage to get a beneficial bacteria colony attached to the root system, the problem is that there isn't any Mycorrhizae, one of the MOST beneficial micro bacteria out there.

The naturalistic association of soil with bacteria provides the mycorrhizae with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose supplied by the plant. The carbohydrates are trans-located from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycorrhizae's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients (due to comparatively large surface area of mycorrhizae:root ratio), thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities immensely.
Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available to the plants they colonize.

Over all, growing hydro is a constant job that many people cannot dedicate all their time to. And that is what it takes, careful observation to make sure everything is running smoothly as things can turn on you very quickly with hydro. To me, it's too much of a time-consuming pain to deal with. Soil works just fine for me and it's a lot cheaper and easier to deal with IMO

Ive seen a lot of subs vids he is very helpful and straight to the point. I am also starting to take up his growing style with coco. And honestly I don't have much experience yet with growing, but working my way up. Quite frankly I don't see a point in arguing about mother nature. Yes in a way he is right about that mother nature is relatively flawed in the way that the climate change presents itself. However there are some climates that do actually offer almost perfect weather almost all the time. Now as far as organics and synths are concerend. I couldn't care less that I put synths into my plants considering that they won't be in the buds when I'm smoking it. Even with organics you still need to flush because regardless of the nutrients you can still get somewhat nasty tasting shit with organics if you don't flush. The only real difference I notice between organics and synths is that if not flush properly you can definately taste the synths more than the organics however either one is still gonna taste relatively nasty when not flushed. Just my .2 cents.

caseyg2007 said:

Ive seen a lot of subs vids he is very helpful and straight to the point. I am also starting to take up his growing style with coco. And honestly I don't have much experience yet with growing, but working my way up. Quite frankly I don't see a point in arguing about mother nature. Yes in a way he is right about that mother nature is relatively flawed in the way that the climate change presents itself. However there are some climates that do actually offer almost perfect weather almost all the time. Now as far as organics and synths are concerend. I couldn't care less that I put synths into my plants considering that they won't be in the buds when I'm smoking it. Even with organics you still need to flush because regardless of the nutrients you can still get somewhat nasty tasting shit with organics if you don't flush. The only real difference I notice between organics and synths is that if not flush properly you can definately taste the synths more than the organics however either one is still gonna taste relatively nasty when not flushed. Just my .2 cents.

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Hey, did you happen to read the discussion we were having on this thread about growing with soil using snythetics vs. organics? Because you'd probably have better luck with soil growing organic...once again: beneficial micro bacteria are "the little elves that come in where you're not looking and fix all the problems and make everything better." This analogy is in regards to soils with beneficial bacteria such as mycorrhizae (the main beneficial bacteria) promoting nutrient uptake for your plant and better root/overall growth

Weedoozie said:

Did some more research and found you are right to an extent. I don't grow hydro myself but here is what I found:
For hydroponic systems – Mycorrhizae does not do well in hydroponic systems as it is sensitive to the nutrients that are used for hydroponics. For hydroponic systems it is best to use Subculture or Hydroguard. Both these products contain bacillus strains which are well suited to hydroponics even in systems that have high salt contents. Subculture should be applied at a rate of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water/nutrient solution (1 pouch per 50 gallons). The first application of Hydroguard should be 15ml per gallon and maintenance applications at 5-10ml per gallon of nutrient solution. For coco fiber, rockwool and Ready-Gro mediums, both Hydroguard and Subculture should be reapplied 21 days after first application and thereafter every 21 days. For hydroponic systems that use Hydroton rocks, perlite, NFT or aeroponics, the Subculture and Hydroguard should be reapplied every 7 days.

The problem with this is that these products can quickly become very expensive/difficult to maintain. If you're not a hydro grower extraordinaire, it'll be a real challenge. If a hydro grower does manage to get a beneficial bacteria colony attached to the root system, the problem is that there isn't any Mycorrhizae, one of the MOST beneficial micro bacteria out there.

The naturalistic association of soil with bacteria provides the mycorrhizae with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose supplied by the plant. The carbohydrates are trans-located from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycorrhizae's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients (due to comparatively large surface area of mycorrhizae:root ratio), thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities immensely.
Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available to the plants they colonize.

Over all, growing hydro is a constant job that many people cannot dedicate all their time to. And that is what it takes, careful observation to make sure everything is running smoothly as things can turn on you very quickly with hydro. To me, it's too much of a time-consuming pain to deal with. Soil works just fine for me and it's a lot cheaper and easier to deal with IMO

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Your information on mychrorozoo is in direct conflict with my personal experience. House & Garden recomends GWS, since they cannot import their own version into the US...or anywhere outside of the EU. If you'll check my current grow, I give pictoral evidence of the root coating, and disapearance once the combination of GWS/Root Excelurature/Algen Extract is discontinued, as per instruction (actually, I drop it a week sooner than the calculator says with Violator Kush...personal experience has shown that it's really not needed after the second week of flower.

Now, I'll say that I'm no "hydro grower extrodinaire"...just pretty damn good, but the extent of maintaining the mix involves putting measured amounts of the three above listed ingredients into the res. Setting right beside my tub, is a a Purple Wreck in soil...my man, I grow every method out there to keep from getting to bored...and it's been treated in exactly the same manner.

Growing is changing fast, for example, the use of H&G's Drip Clean (compatible with any nutrient program) forms an ionic bond with salts and keeps them completely out of the equation.

I'm really not trying to be a wise ass, but I know what I'm talking about, I've been doing this for awhile, and the idea that you can't generate and maintain a mycorozoo in hydroponic applications is laughable, just go take a look at my stuff...and keep an eye out on my next grow from beginning to end, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Weedoozie said:

Hey, did you happen to read the discussion we were having on this thread about growing with soil using snythetics vs. organics? Because you'd probably have better luck with soil growing organic...once again: beneficial micro bacteria are "the little elves that come in where you're not looking and fix all the problems and make everything better." This analogy is in regards to soils with beneficial bacteria such as mycorrhizae (the main beneficial bacteria) promoting nutrient uptake for your plant and better root/overall growth

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Indeed I believe that if your gonna do soil might as well do 100% organics and if your hydro then use synths w/organics. I personally like to mix it up a little between the 2. They both have there benefits and drawback.

Ok so what is the benefit of the mycorrhizae when minerals in synthetic nutes are all soluble and chelated, thus directly available to the plant ? My understanding is that the main benefit of these symbiotic live zones is to increase the efficiency of the conversion of organic substances to soluble form for plant uptake, in particular nitrates and phosphates. Another advantage of the myco is drought tolerance, which is not an issue in hydro, so are there other advantages beside these that would justify creating this "live" culture in an inert media? Or maybe this is the best of 2 worlds, a myco zone with mineralized ferts?

vs.

Synthetics win

HomeGrown&Smoked said:

vs.

Synthetics win

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LOL
coming from the guy watering his dead plants with BRAWNDO-THE THIRST MUTILATOR!!!
hahahahaha I love the avatar

Weedoozie said:

LOL
coming from the guy watering his dead plants with BRAWNDO-THE THIRST MUTILATOR!!!
hahahahaha I love the avatar

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"Yeah, it's got electrolytes."
"What are electrolytes? Do you even know?"
"It's what they use to make Brawndo."
"Yeah, but why do they use them to make Brawndo?"
"Cause Brawndo's got electrolytes."

I love that movie so much, but I can see where it is within the realm of possibility. I actually had to search google images for almost an hour to find that damn thing. To this day I have no idea what it tastes like.

Thanks for noticing, by the way.

HomeGrown&Smoked said:

"It's made with electrolytes."
"Yeah, but why is it made with electrolytes?"
"Because that's whats in Brawndo."

I love that movie so much, but I can see where it is within the realm of possibility. I actually had to search google images for almost an hour to find that damn thing. To this day I have no idea what it tastes like.

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Oh it's my worst fear that it will come true...I feel we are fast approaching that kind of future
The intelligent need to have more sex n babies...
Oh god, I was hoping they don't actually make that stuff but it is real!! I saw it at 7-11 a while back and literally said quite loudy, "What the FUCK they actually make this stuff?!?" Luckily for me, everyone around me either ignored me or just giggled. Lol I was too surprised to actually buy it and try it. Plus, I don't think I'd like it, sounds disgusting.

Weedoozie said:

Oh it's my worst fear that it will come true...I feel we are fast approaching that kind of future
The intelligent need to have more sex n babies...
Oh god, I was hoping they don't actually make that stuff but it is real!! I saw it at 7-11 a while back and literally said quite loudy, "What the FUCK they actually make this stuff?!?" Luckily for me, everyone around me either ignored me or just giggled. Lol I was too surprised to actually buy it and try it. Plus, I don't think I'd like it, sounds disgusting.

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Yeah, from what I was looking at online it looks like a carbonated energy drink. I got the impression from the movie it was more or less gatorade, which I'm cool with. Not so much so with the energy drinks.

The movie is fucking sweet and sour. It is one of the funniest movies out there, but every time I watch it I think- It is already happening.

HomeGrown&Smoked said:

Yeah, from what I was looking at online it looks like a carbonated energy drink. I got the impression from the movie it was more or less gatorade, which I'm cool with. Not so much so with the energy drinks.

The movie is fucking sweet and sour. It is one of the funniest movies out there, but every time I watch it I think- It is already happening.

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It really is happening and it's scary...

Oh no, Gatorade is so much better than Brawndo

but neither is what plants crave

patlpp said:

Ok so what is the benefit of the mycorrhizae when minerals in synthetic nutes are all soluble and chelated, thus directly available to the plant ? My understanding is that the main benefit of these symbiotic live zones is to increase the efficiency of the conversion of organic substances to soluble form for plant uptake, in particular nitrates and phosphates. Another advantage of the myco is drought tolerance, which is not an issue in hydro, so are there other advantages beside these that would justify creating this "live" culture in an inert media? Or maybe this is the best of 2 worlds, a myco zone with mineralized ferts?

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Myco serves a number of purposes, some exclusive to soil, others that cross into hydro. In hydro, the primary benefit isn't nutrient absorption, although there is benefit there, it's an inoculate for your root zone, preventing numerous problems, mostly tied to sub-optimal nutrient solution temp. Res temps over 72 are a breeding ground for root illness, which will have an extreme effect on the health of your plants. Obviously, every hydro grower does what they can to ensure the temp of their res, but equipment failures/power outages and the like can throw you a curve ball. Also, one must account for people like me...people who use a combination of chemical and organic/organic based nutes. I use the complete H&G line, mostly chemical, but several components are organic (Algen Extract) or organic based (Root Excelurator), and at this point myco begins to act a bit like it's in soil, assisting with the breakdown and absorption of the organics. Best of both worlds may not be exactly right, but it's pretty close.