P toxity- Help recovery program

Hi, I am using Canna Aqua series I did switch too early to Aqua flores(12 days after flip) ,thats not the real problem , but the thing that I added AN Big Bud PK product + AN b52 , the flowers started to form nicely but for the past 2 weeks the lower leaves been dying , drying ,yellowing with burned half of the leafs etc. AND ITS BEEN CREEPING UPWARDS
so...learning don't mix brands unless you know they are compatible..

I did empty tanks once all ready but I did add the Big Bud back ,because the flower production slowed down..

Anyway now I did decide to empty the other tank and go with the proper almost plain water for the other tank because seems the yellowing and leaves dying is progressing...so now after few days of mild like 0.6 EC should I add the Aqua Vega for them for few days to get some N back in the mix, because if I add now only first half strength and then later more just the Aqua Flores it mainly contain again just PK with very low N , and it might be good for recover from the excess shock of high PK to get some N too...I don't have the plain N and nobody sells it either...at least not this fast...

I would re flush for three days... then add the highest N with the lowest pk you have..
Don't use any more bloom nutes.. they're what's killing your plant..

Nitrogen Fertilization in Hydroponics

It is a common mistake in hydroponic gardening to assume that the chemical forms of nitrogen that can be used in hydroponics are the same that can be used in regular soil gardening. Don’t get me wrong, plants in soil and plants in hydroponic media use the exact same chemical forms of nitrogen as nutrients, what changes dramatically from hydroponics to soil gardening is the environment in which the plant is.
Let us talk about the available forms of nitrogen first. Plants absorb nitrogen either as NO3(-) (nitrate) or NH4(+)(ammonium) ions. Both of these ions supply nitrogen to the plant but they have dramatic differences inside the plant’s metabolic pathways. Nitrate is absorbed by the plant slowly and provides the materials needed for the synthesis of amino acids and other structures while ammonia is absorbed rapidly and causes immediate plant toxicity if present in highly enough concentrations.


This is the main difference between soil and hydroponic gardening. In hydroponics, most of the nitrogen must be supplied as NO3(-) because the hydroponic media allows ammonium ions to become toxic exceedingly fast. For example, hydroponic plants can withstand concentrations of nitrogen (as nitrate) up to about 250 ppm while concentrations of nitrogen as ammonium are only withstood up until about 30 ppm. This is the reason why urea cannot be used as a nutrient salt in hydroponic gardening to supply all the nitrogen needed by the plants.

So if plants in soil and hydroponic media assimilate the same nutrients, why can plants in soil be fed nitrogen as ammonium but hydroponic plants cannot ? The answer is quiet simple. Bacteria present within the soil are able to efficiently convert ammonium ions into nitrate ions, effectively reducing the amount of ammonium the plant “sees”. In fact, plants in soil also absorb nitrate, the only difference is that there are bacteria that can convert ammonium to nitrate, reason why nitrogen can be supplied as ammonium to plants present in soil.

So next time you are searching for a nitrogen nutrient for your hydroponic plants, remember to search for nitrate salts as more than 90% of your total nitrogen source. The most important salts for providing nitrogen as nitrate in hydroponic gardening are potassium nitrate and calcium nitrate. This is important to remember, as using ammonium salts to provide your plant’s nitrogen will ultimately kill them in hydroponic media

Cut'n'pasted from some site on hydroponic nutrients v soil nutrients in their respective growing media hope it helps Rudi

Hydroponic Nutrient Availability : What “Pushing Out an Element” Really Means

Plants need a very large variety of elements in order to grow successfully. In hydroponic crops we intend to provide all these elements in their different forms dissolved within our nutrient solutions. However the mechanisms by which plants absorb these elements is complex and there are many different factors that determine which elements are absorbed and which elements are not. On today’s post I will write a little bit about the problem of nutrient availability, what factors determine how ions are absorbed and what does it mean to “push an element out” when talking about a hydroponic system. First we will talk about the nature of the elements dissolved in hydroponics solutions followed by the importance of environmental conditions and nutrient interactions that finally determine the actual availability of nutrients for plant growth.

The first important thing we need to understand is that plants can absorb many different forms of the elements we need to provide and that these elements are not absorbed in their pure state but forming ionic entities dissolved within our solutions. For example nitrogen is absorbed by plants as the NO3(-) ion (nitrate) or as the NH4(+) ion (ammonium), both of these ions supply the plant with nitrogen but their overall effect is different and the ratio of their concentration has an important effect on plant growth and development. The second thing we need to understand is that plants can only absorb things that are dissolved in solution and that plants cannot absorb materials that are above a certain size. Although studies have shown that plants can take large particulate aggregates (such as polyoxometalates) it is true that large bulk solid materials of a few microns in diameter are already beyond the cellular absorption capacity of most plants. In order for something to get into a plant it needs to be dissolved in water, it needs to form the ionic entities which are assimilable by the plants.


The third and also probably least understood aspect of nutrient absorption is that the chemistry that leads to the entering of a nutrient within the plant cells must be favorable. What this means is that different conditions must be met so that plants can get their nutrients. There are many things that can cause this process to fail which may not be related with the nutrient itself but with the presence or absence of another nutrient. In plants there is an agonist/antagonist relationship between the different ionic species such that the excess or absence of one specie affects the absorption of another. For example iron is absorbed by plants as either Fe(2+) or Fe(3+) while phosphorous is generally absorbed as H2PO4(-) or HPO4(2-), when there is an excess of phosphate species the formation of iron-phosphate crystals can happen within the plant’s nutrient transport system causing what seems to appear as an iron deficiency. The problem is not caused by a lack of iron but by an excess of phosphate that hinders the mechanisms of absorption. Increasing iron concentration when this happens merely makes the problem worse as when phosphate concentrations lower an excessive iron concentration – now causing iron toxicity – is present.

The key to have a healthy plant with adequate absorption of nutrients is therefore to make all the necessary above mentioned conditions adequate. The first thing we need to do is guarantee that the nutrients we provide are in the adequate form (ionic species) and the second is that the conditions are adequate so that these species do not change but instead are absorbed. This leads us to the problem of “nutrient push-out” which is mentioned a lot within the hydroponic community. There are several environmental conditions that can cause the assimilable ionic forms of nutrients to change to something else therefore being “pushed out” of a solution. For example if you have high carbonate ion concentrations within your water the addition of your hydroponic nutrients can cause iron carbonate precipitation. This means that the previously dissolved iron (available as Fe(2+)) now becomes bound to carbonate ions forming a solid (FeCO3). This solid is very stable and hence doesn’t form aqueous ions but instead stays undissolved in the bottom of your nutrient solution. Other things such as an increase in pH (which precipitates metal oxides like Fe(OH)2) can also dramatically affect nutrient availability.

Many people tend to believe that calcium and sulfate precipitate easily but a careful analysis of the solubility behavior of calcium sulfate reveals that you would need a concentration of sulfur as sulfate of more than 400 ppm before any precipitation actually happens. In most cases precipitation can happen if concentrated solutions are mixed too quickly one after another – without adequate dissolution – or if a mix of solid nutrients is added to the reservoir. However this precipitate formed is often later dissolved with time as the aqueous solution reaches equilibrium.

In general when people refer to an element being “pushed out” they talk about the element being made unavailable to the plant through some mechanism generally involving the formation of a stable solid that cannot be used by the plants. The solid “drops out” of the hydroponic solution and therefore the term “pushed out” was born as a way to refer to this phenomena. Nonetheless it is always important to remember that other things can cause elements to become unavailable, such as temperature and the concentration level of other elements. In hydroponics we are dealing with a very complex interaction between ions and plants and our main goal is to keep the different nutrients balanced in such a way that most interactions are beneficial. Keeping an eye on temperature, pH, nutrient ratios and water quality is vital to achieve this desirable outcome.
This may also be of some help. Rudi

Whaaat...that's a too academic answer to my question, basically I did my second reservoir change and kept it 24 hours low nutrients then upped a bit with the Aqua Flores and also Aqua Vega to get a bit N in to the mix....now I even have a bottle of Cannas Nitrogen only which I can poor in to my reservoir....the main question is that does the roots of my plants be still in some "lock out" mode or will they start to absorb things in a healthy way...the growing media is clay pebbles and its Atami Wilma system...I really wouldn't want to waist more nutes and start emptying reservoir again...I am afraid the bud formant will stagnant and remain as poor result...there might had been some answer in your text, but simplify it to a few sentences in layman's terms...and yep of course the nutrients I am using are particularly made for hydroponic usage !

HydoDan said:

I would re flush for three days... then add the highest N with the lowest pk you have..
Don't use any more bloom nutes.. they're what's killing your plant..

Click to expand...

Cheers, dam I hate to start emptying my 60 liter reservoir again...the other one is doing ok and plants drinking quite well, the other one is having this ph going down shit even it is supposed to be ph stable fertilizer...(ok actually both get that ph going down shit now..damit!)

R U growing just one strain or several?

One strain..moby dick from dinafem...fuck..the yellowing just contiues to proceed...now I am emptying the tank again and going to put just ph water for few days...

High Phytium Hater

Going from strong nutes to pH water only can cause a reverse osmosis kind of thing where your plants go limp like they are dehydrating and die quick. If it happens get at least 300ppm of nutes in there and mist the leaves with lots of water a couple times/day and it will hopefully come back like mine did when it happened.

I've used the AN 3-part with Big Bud for 15 years and recently got fresh gallon jugs of it to grow lot this winter.

Are the leaves going hard and crispy as they yellow or limp? Toxic salts buildup in the older leaves first makes them "taco" and go crispy. Yellow and limp with burned parts would likely be multiple nute lockouts from too much of something. Could be related to mixing brands but I doubt BB would do it.

Good luck.

It looks like autumn ,bottom leaves have dropped first turning yellow with crispy burned parts, NOW THERE IS NO BOTTOM LEAVES, and fucking autumn is creeping up to the sugar leaves YELLOW leaves coming big time , I couldn't empty tank 100 % because of water pumps would have burned ..too difficult to reach for the correct cords for them so little bit of feeding water remained at the bottom..so after fresh water the EC is now 0.8 , I thought that shouldn't be too much...FUCK ,HEEELP ! ,
so plain water misting on the remaining leaves without any nutes ? should it PH'ed ?

No taco leaves !

I made a foliar feed mixture for tomorrow , 1 ml/liter magnesium , 1ml/liter calcium , and 5ml/liter nitrozyme (kelp extract)
is that a good idea..?

A lot of the time this is either

N- deff
cal/mag - deff
K - deff
P - deff

or its a P lockout calcium phosphate can build up it`s a cunt partly why I use potassium sulphate and not potassium phosphate anymore

You know how much you`ve fed normally when I have yellowing lower leaves its due to under feeding or bugs... but I aint the one that`s been feeding your plants...... nice 1-2-3 bumper crop powder with 3mg + TM

I use some of that I don`t always use A+B foods and stuff but I have noticed a lil bumper crop or all bumper crop and I get less yellowing fan leaves early on

plus I go 1000ppm into bloom maxing out at 2000ppm sometimes as high as 3000ppm during bloom finishing with 1000 to 2000ppm of potassium sulphate.... if the leaves arent yellow and the buds arent ripe by then I give aspirin and K and wait for a week that always finish`s them

but sounds like there not getting enough N or P/K sometimes it is actually both and sometimes its just bugs killing your leaves

Nope, it is switching from Aqua Vega to Aqua Bloom before stretching ended + loaded AN Big Bud + AN b52 to my CANNA feeding programme, Canna Aqua bloom is already more PK less N , and I wen't and loaded different brand extra PK from beginning of bloom. so lock out caused by too much P ,
but , lets talk about how to fix it , read my post above , is it going to do the job or not , low nutes and the calmag kelp spray...?

HydoDan said:

I would re flush for three days... then add the highest N with the lowest pk you have..
Don't use any more bloom nutes.. they're what's killing your plant..

Click to expand...

By bloom nutes you mean Pk products....my program should be Canna Aqua range , that one is meant to be using the Canna Aqua Flores a+b at this point, you don't mean that I shouldn't use that...you mean the PK stuff (the earlier Canna Aqua Vega is higher in N )

or should I start using Canna Coco A+B that one has extra calcium and regular balance in NPK , I have used it before with great results in hydro....come on guys throw me a bone here my plants are fucked !!!
Its my first try with Canna Aqua series, my water is soft 0.2 , and I forgot to add extra calcium from the start....but thats a different story...now I just need the ultimate 911 recovery treatment...artificial respiration and blood transfusion ...defibrillator anybody to borrow ?!

Haven't heard about this yet. How are the roots?

When lockouts occur just correcting the mix by flushing or draining then feeding a lower dose of balanced nutes will turn them around. Not sure what's going on here.

When doing DWC I leave my veg nutes in and add a bunch of Bloom with a half dose of Big Bud about a week before flipping. A week after flipping a booster dose of GMB in equal amounts and a full dose of BB. Will have Bud Ignitor in a week and will be experimenting with that. After the stretch fresh batch of Bloom formulated nutes with BB. I use CalMag sparingly.

AN makes a product called Revive for situations like this. I've never used it but it's said to really work. 250ml bottle on the way next week too.

Could you get a picture or 5 up here? Might help a lot.

The thing is that I need to wait until lights go off tomorrow, too hard to start pulling plugs right now, I will do the calmag & Nitrozyme spray tomorrow 15 min, before lights go out, then take some pics, not sure if the foliar thing is wise to do in flowering ?

Drastic last resort and I don't think it has much chance of helping. Try to just get the undersides of the bigger leaves and leave the top of the plant alone if you can. Hold something in one hand to catche the overspray as much as possible. That's not nasty stuff like mite sprays so shouldn't have a permanent effect on the buds. Let it sit in the dark for a good hour after spraying with fans off to have time to absorb. One or two small drops of Dawn or other dish detergent will act as a surfactant so the liquid spreads on the leaves and sticks. Very little tho.

Good luck.

Pics,

Sound advise IMHO Rudi

Fuckit I didn't go and try to spray..they have to make it whit the low feeding water recovery....I am going to try continue after 3 days with Canna Coco nutrient instead...because of the N and extra calcium it provides...I have used it before with great results in hydro too..