Paul Ryan's "Path to Prosperity"

mame

mame

Well-Known Member
So, it's available here for all to read here

Clearly, this proposal is quite ambitious... I'll start with what is likely going to end up as one of the most polarizing provisions

First, the privatization of Medicare by moving it over to a voucher program is bad idea. Now, I'm not saying privatization is always bad - just in this particular case. My philosophy on privatization is that it should only be done when the privatized task is easily definable (and therefore easy to measure performance, city trash services and Janatorial duties are good examples) and when the privatized task does not pit the interests of profit against the well being of society.

Not only this, but it includes "a permanent extension for...[the Bush] tax cuts, plus large permanent estate-tax cuts, a new business tax cut and a lower top income tax rate for the richest taxpayers. "

It also cuts energy subsidies for energy sources such as solar and wind but leaves the subsidies for big oil.

It also plans on getting discretionary spending down to ~3.5% of total spending by GDP. that includes cuts to education, scientific research, environmental preservation, investor protection, disease control, food safety, federal law enforcement, etc.

More cuts. $715 billion over 10 years to Federal retirement funds and Food Stamps.

So there is a plethora of cuts to programs that the poor and middle class depend on to varying degrees but there isn't a single increase in revenue..
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
You made many points but I want to comment on just the Estate Tax. I think the whole damn thing is robbery, pure and simple. If an individual paid taxes his entire life, why the hell should the government be able to take ANYTHING from his/her survivors? Where it is really atrocious is with our country's farming families. Many of the families are land rich and cash poor. They end up having to sell all or a majority of their family land, just to pay the estate tax bill, even though they've paid property tax on the land their entire lives.

Anyone in favor of property rights is gonna have a hard time justifying this theft. The land just gets taken from a family that should have every right to keep it and gets sold to some corporation or conglomerate.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
You made many points but I want to comment on just the Estate Tax. I think the whole damn thing is robbery, pure and simple. If an individual paid taxes his entire life, why the hell should the government be able to take ANYTHING from his/her survivors? Where it is really atrocious is with our country's farming families. Many of the families are land rich and cash poor. They end up having to sell all or a majority of their family land, just to pay the estate tax bill, even though they've paid property tax on the land their entire lives.

Anyone in favor of property rights is gonna have a hard time justifying this theft. The land just gets taken from a family that should have every right to keep it and gets sold to some corporation or conglomerate.
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That's a fair point but I think lawmakers already addressed this in the Bush years if I'm not mistaken? The whole land rich, money poor farm scenario is a story I've heard before. I'll have to poke around on google or something to see if there was actually any policy fixing this issue....

update: Oh yes, currently the estate tax is only applicable to estates worth over $5 million. There is also a provision specifically for family owned farms.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
I guess the conservatives can bash liberal policies but then cannot even defend what they would do instead as good policy?

All I'm seeing in the pages of this "path to prosperity" is more shit that helps out corporate profit margins at the expense of the rest of the nation... Just as their rhetoric of the "entire nation needing to pitch in a little" to get us out of debt more or less means tax cuts for the rich and job, wage, and benefits cuts for the rest of us.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
You made many points but I want to comment on just the Estate Tax. I think the whole damn thing is robbery, pure and simple. If an individual paid taxes his entire life, why the hell should the government be able to take ANYTHING from his/her survivors? Where it is really atrocious is with our country's farming families. Many of the families are land rich and cash poor. They end up having to sell all or a majority of their family land, just to pay the estate tax bill, even though they've paid property tax on the land their entire lives.

Anyone in favor of property rights is gonna have a hard time justifying this theft. The land just gets taken from a family that should have every right to keep it and gets sold to some corporation or conglomerate.
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99.7% of Americans are not effected by the estate tax.

as far as the reasons for its existence, why don't you ask the republican most responsible for championing the estate tax: teddy roosevelt.

ya know, the dude on mt rushmore. go ask him. tell me what you find.
 
M

mihjaro

Active Member
MuyLocoNC said:
You made many points but I want to comment on just the Estate Tax. I think the whole damn thing is robbery, pure and simple. If an individual paid taxes his entire life, why the hell should the government be able to take ANYTHING from his/her survivors? Where it is really atrocious is with our country's farming families. Many of the families are land rich and cash poor. They end up having to sell all or a majority of their family land, just to pay the estate tax bill, even though they've paid property tax on the land their entire lives.

Anyone in favor of property rights is gonna have a hard time justifying this theft. The land just gets taken from a family that should have every right to keep it and gets sold to some corporation or conglomerate.
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Given that a large majority of "family" farms were created out of land grants (where a society decides to give land, for free, to anyone willing to work it), I don't see a problem with society getting a cut during the intergenerational transfer process.

You will be hard pressed to find more than a few actual, true, instances of family farms being sold because of the estate tax. Estate taxes in closely held businesses, such as family farms, can be planned for and if not properly planned for can be amortized over something like 14 years. And, if the family keeps the business for 10 years after the transfer, the tax can be reduced upto 70%. The meme that the government is out to steal the wealth of inheritors and destroy family enterprises is a well debunked factoid.

You cannot sustain an economic system without an estate tax and a democracy at the same time. Wealth which is allowed to accrue indefinitely will always win.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
99.7% of Americans are not effected by the estate tax.

as far as the reasons for its existence, why don't you ask the republican most responsible for championing the estate tax: teddy roosevelt.

ya know, the dude on mt rushmore. go ask him. tell me what you find.
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Congratulations on quoting me and then completely ignoring the entire point I made, concern for America's farmers. It shouldn't matter if it only happens a couple of times a year, forcing a family to give up land it has owned and paid property taxes on for generations just to pay for some "dreamt up" estate tax is larceny and goes against personal property rights in even it's most narrow interpretation.

To mame, thanks for at least addressing my post rather than just using it as a chance to throw out some partisan, flaccid jab. Many families have land valued at well over the 5 million dollar figure you pointed out and I have read accounts of quite a few families that lost their land because of estate tax liabilities. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't hear about any changes or protections for families with huge tracts of land, but I did hear people saying it would force them to sell when "poppa" dies.
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
mihjaro said:
Given that a large majority of "family" farms were created out of land grants (where a society decides to give land, for free, to anyone willing to work it), I don't see a problem with society getting a cut during the intergenerational transfer process.

You will be hard pressed to find more than a few actual, true, instances of family farms being sold because of the estate tax. Estate taxes in closely held businesses, such as family farms, can be planned for and if not properly planned for can be amortized over something like 14 years. And, if the family keeps the business for 10 years after the transfer, the tax can be reduced upto 70%. The meme that the government is out to steal the wealth of inheritors and destroy family enterprises is a well debunked factoid.

You cannot sustain an economic system without an estate tax and a democracy at the same time. Wealth which is allowed to accrue indefinitely will always win.
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Wow, that is some straight up Socialist sh!t, dude.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Wow, that is some straight up Socialist sh!t, dude.
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after all that substantive, factual information debunking your lies, all you find noteworthy is a (failed) attempt to make a flaccid, partisan jab?

lame.

mihjaro is WINNING.
 
M

mihjaro

Active Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Wow, that is some straight up Socialist sh!t, dude.
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So, you complain about people not responding to your point, then, in the post which directly addresses your concerns about family farms you concern yourself with a paraphrasing of Toqueville.

What do you have to say about the rest of the post? I really tried to address your questions. I'm especially interested in what you think about the estate tax in light of the fact that most of the farmable land west of the Appalachians was granted to the owners. That is to say, we took it from the natives, or bought it from the French, or annexed it from the Spanish and Mexicans at the point of a gun, and GAVE it to the settlers.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
it smells like a lot of muy loco bullshit in here. let's clear the air.

The estates of only 0.24% of those who die in 2009 are expected to owe any estate tax. And only about 1.3% of the few estates that are still taxable are small businesses or farm estates. Tax Policy Institute estimates that only 80 small businesses and farm estates nationwide will owe any estate tax in 2009. This figure represents only .003% of all estates: that is, the estates of 3 out of every 100,000 people who die this year.

Furthermore, the minuscule number of small businesses and farm estates that do owe estate tax generally owe only a modest percentage of the estate's value in tax. The 80 small farm and business estates left by people who die in 2009 that owe any estate tax will owe the tax at an average rate of just 14%.

Indeed, the American Farm Bureau acknowledged several years ago that several years ago, when the estate tax was more expansive than it was today, that even then it could not cite even a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay the estate tax.

Of the 65 farm estates that would owe any estate tax after the $3.5 million dollar exemption, only 13 could potentially face liquidity constraints...this figure likely overestimates liquidity constraints...because of other important options available to them...such as spreading their tax payment over a 14 year period...that would allow them to pay the tax without having to sell off any of the farm assets.
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www.cbpp.org/estatetaxmyths.pdf
 
MuyLocoNC

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
mihjaro said:
So, you complain about people not responding to your point, then, in the post which directly addresses your concerns about family farms you concern yourself with a paraphrasing of Toqueville.

What do you have to say about the rest of the post? I really tried to address your questions. I'm especially interested in what you think about the estate tax in light of the fact that most of the farmable land west of the Appalachians was granted to the owners. That is to say, we took it from the natives, or bought it from the French, or annexed it from the Spanish and Mexicans at the point of a gun, and GAVE it to the settlers.
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Not at all, I was walking out the door to engage in the sweet, sweet practice of Capitalism, I only had time for a one line response.

I couldn't argue with any of you on how many property owners it effects. I'm sure I've seen and heard accounts of families losing farms due to the estate tax and a couple here recently stating they would if the estate tax was reinstated. Maybe it was all bunk, maybe there are protections in the new tax code that protects them. If so, then well done you and I concede (something rarely seen on this forum), which is why if you look at my earlier post I cleary wrote "Maybe I'm wrong".

However, and it's a big one. If you're wrong and any families are losing private property and family farm land or just family land, then I repeat, it's larceny. I saw your earlier post and couldn't disagree more with your statements.The fact they were "given" as grants, means nothing, they WERE given...and became personal property, that matters far more than HOW they became personal property. Also, what the hell is the basis for taxing an estate anyways? The government got whatever legal amount it was entitled to as any estate is created, why do they get to reach in and say gimmee some more, daddy's dead. That's where we aren't going to be able to agree, I just don't see the governments right to make a grab for it. They got theirs already, we gave at the office.

And for the record, I wasn't making a partisan comment at all, what you wrote smacked of it. At least to me.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
...they were "given" as grants...
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generally, people only put quotation marks around a word when it is dubious.

there is nothing dubious about this one though. they were GIVEN the land.

MuyLocoNC said:
Also, what the hell is the basis for taxing an estate anyways?
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basically as a means to protect against an oligarchy.

the estate tax was established by rebuplican teddy roosevelt. his words, not mine:

We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used. It is not even enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community … The really big fortune, the swollen fortune, by the mere fact of its size, acquires qualities which differentiate it in kind as well as in degree from what is possessed by men of relatively small means. Therefore, I believe in a graduated income tax on big fortunes, and … a graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion, and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate.
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basically, it is not enough that the massive fortune be earned honestly, it must also benefit the community rather than detriment it. i can't say i feel 100% on board with old teddy, however.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Congratulations on quoting me and then completely ignoring the entire point I made, concern for America's farmers. It shouldn't matter if it only happens a couple of times a year, forcing a family to give up land it has owned and paid property taxes on for generations just to pay for some "dreamt up" estate tax is larceny and goes against personal property rights in even it's most narrow interpretation.

To mame, thanks for at least addressing my post rather than just using it as a chance to throw out some partisan, flaccid jab. Many families have land valued at well over the 5 million dollar figure you pointed out and I have read accounts of quite a few families that lost their land because of estate tax liabilities. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't hear about any changes or protections for families with huge tracts of land, but I did hear people saying it would force them to sell when "poppa" dies.
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I call bs. I don't believe that is a significant problem.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
They weren't just "Given" the land, there were certain qualification that had to met and you HAD to make certain improvements to that land within a 5 year time limit. Can you imagine how much tax revenue has come from "Giving" all that land to people? As far as I know land does not have the means to pay taxes, nor be a legal entity.
 
ink the world

ink the world

Well-Known Member
LOl this thread started to go off on a tangent faster than normal, even for around here. We had a "class warfare"thread back a week or so ago. In that thread I said that I didnt believe there was class warfare going on. I have to say now that I was wrong. This budget is just the smoking gun I guess.

The more I hear of the plan the more I dislike it. Heres why:

"Neutral tax revenue" while dropping the rate 10% for the top bracket. Its doesnt take an economic genius to figure this part out. If the revenue remains neutral while dropping the revenue 10% from the top bracket then all of us not in the top bracket will be getting a tax hike. Thats right tax breaks for the richest and tax hikes for the middle and lower class. Good stuff there.

Most of the money being cut in deficit reduction is going right back out the door in the form of corporate and high income tax breaks. Take from the middle class and poor and give it right to the richest in our society.
There ya go Teabaggers, you gonna bitch about "redistribution of wealth" as hard as you have about Obamas so called "redistribution" policies?

This is basically gonna be turning over Medicare and Medicaid to private for profit insurance companies. All the bullshit talk of vouchers and block grants and all that means 1 thing: The profit based privatization of both programs is the goal here.
Grandma spent all her voucher $ on medication already for the year. Too fucking bad, this is America granny no free rides here. We all know how honest and caring for profit insurance companies are. Im sure they'll help granny out at the risk of losing some $ dont you?

Hmmm, kinda sounds like a "death panel" doesnt it? Just this that these one will be REAL not a bullshit sound byte swallowed up by angry ignorant people and propagated by even more ignorant and irresponsible "politicians.".
 
420Marine

420Marine

Well-Known Member
Well personally I'm a registered Moderate however I like to think of myself as an open minded Republican borderline Independent. I Enlisted in the Corps served a year and it took almost 7 years to finally get the VA to acknowledge anything. After I served in the service I got out and was hired by the Govt. to work on the newly formed TSA. I ended up having a panic attack on the job and was let go later on.

Now all that being said...I would think that anyone would (hopefully) think that I am as bi-partisan as one who identifies with any party can be. Although I certainly have no love loss for the Govt what I see happening today to our great country is tragic to say the least.

We are in debt..there's no doubt about that (unless you have EXTREME socialist views and think like Michael Moore and think that private weatlh should be factored in somewhere.) Now the only way to get this massive spending under control....keyword here is SPENDING then I think we can be a great nation within my lifetime again.

What needs to be done, well a few things..first a complete Overhaul of the Tax code as we know. Personally I would love to see a flat tax across the board..based on NET incomes vs Gross. I don't know how many brackets thier should be but thier should be at least a few anyone under X pays such and such between X-Y etc. Yes this is a bit of wealth distribution and I am aware of that ...realistically though the rich will always pay more based on percentages anyway.

The debt is climbing and has been under BOTH Bush and Obummer....Also two wars and a Military action..Libya have not helped matters..and I"m not saying their bad either way one way or another..it's the past and it can't be changed..so we move forward.

I have not read all of Ryans bill yet however I think that serious cuts NEED to happen sooner rather than later...the privatization of medicare I won't comment on b/c I really have to do more research...BUT if we don't change it it won't be around when people my age need it..not to sound greedy in any way...or entitled but I think if I've put money into something I should get it back.

Speaking of entitlement..that leads to the root cause (or at least a big chunk of it) as far as debt. What REALLY needs to have a strong examination of EVERYONE'S entitlement. Before I go any further I would like to say that yes I am on an entitlement program (SSDI and 30% disability from the VA) that does NOT mean I won't sacrifice (to an extent under rational of course) to help out this great land. I think their needs to be a system in place that audits anyone getting any entitlement program. See what they use the money for...if it's drugs (I"m not talking meds this is for people without cards or with that are buying hard core stuff.)

For that matter at least decriminalize Cannabis and tax it...just let people make their own decisions on growing and not try to strip away rights..perhaps a Govt run "Compassion Center" in any and all states that want it..or better still use the money that you were going to give to NPR (and yes I like NPR but I don't want to fund it either) or Planned Parenthood (again this agency needs nothing more than to privatize and will make out great) and put it into the legalization of Cannabis.

Some of you were semi down on the idea of bigger/more/maintaining tax cut. I would rather give money to businesses here in the US in the form of a tax break so that hopefully they can hire more American workers and start the economy at some point. People don't like rich people b/c their rich..personally I could care less as long as he or she pays a fair amount as described by law then more power too them for doing great and showing the world what American Capitalism is all about.
 
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