People vs McQueen; your thoughts?

Sampras1489

Active Member
Hey fellow mitten dwellers,

As the recent legislation changes are still being mulled over, we have arguably the biggest piece of the puzzle coming up with ruling on the people vs McQueen case coming up soon.

I just listened to the oral arguments, and to me, first and foremost, it seems McQueen was poorly represented, as his lawyer couldn't give direct rebuttals without some round about interpretation stemming from her personal opinion.

Secondly, with that being said, the justices didn't sound too optimistic for patient to patient transfers, or anything outside of the caregiver and his or her 5 patients for that matter.

Personally, I don't think it sounds too good for McQueen, what are your guys thoughts?
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
Current odds in my circle is 5-1 to 20-1 against.

That said, who cares. Currently the COA ruling is in effect, until such time as the SC overrules it that is what we live with. Without respect to the many lines of thought we could get going here, the bottom line is it is in their hands and they will decide when they are ready to do so, and then we deal with the aftermath.

Dr. Bob
 

Timmahh

Well-Known Member
the CoA is Law? REALLY Who Cares? REALLY? you are a Dumbass! Seriously. the CoA is UNDER the Authority of the Supreme Court. Not Over. Who Cares this dumbfuck says. Wow
 

McMedical

Active Member
As the defense stated. Patient to patient transfer/sale is not prohibited in the act therefor is legal. I think the best way she argued this was her analogy using the protection of tourists who are medical marijuana patients in other states. The law prevents non state citizens from gaining a Michigan medical marijuana card, therefore prevents them from attaining a Michigan caregiver. That is why patient to patient transfer is the only way a tourist can attain meds.

As a law student I feel she argued this very well, and it will be very difficult for the justices to ignore.
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
Are we talking about legislative law, such as LARA, or criminal law here? Can someone site a case of P2P criminal prosecution and those criminal charges successfully brought?

The "tourist" sited above would be protected under the Affirmative Defense in terms of criminal law correct?
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
I just don't get so many confusing LARA legislation with criminal law. IMO I do not see LARA's failure to address P2P in the "letter" of this "law" as creating criminal illegality of P2P transfers. Legitimate MJ patients ALL have protection under an Affirmative Defense and that has nothing to do with LARA standards.
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
the CoA is Law? REALLY Who Cares? REALLY? you are a Dumbass! Seriously. the CoA is UNDER the Authority of the Supreme Court. Not Over. Who Cares this dumbfuck says. Wow
Let me carefully explain this to you Tim.

The COA has ruled, their ruling is the current interpretation of the Law on that issue in Michigan. The SC has heard the case, and currently is working on a decision. They will either let the ruling stand, send it back for trial, or over rule it. When they speak, it is the final word. Until they do, the COA ruling is the way it is. We will see what they rule and deal with it. They are not looking at the forums for your guidance, or mine, they are deciding for themselves and aren't paying attention to you, or us.

Got it now?

Dr. Bob
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
As the defense stated. Patient to patient transfer/sale is not prohibited in the act therefor is legal. I think the best way she argued this was her analogy using the protection of tourists who are medical marijuana patients in other states. The law prevents non state citizens from gaining a Michigan medical marijuana card, therefore prevents them from attaining a Michigan caregiver. That is why patient to patient transfer is the only way a tourist can attain meds.

As a law student I feel she argued this very well, and it will be very difficult for the justices to ignore.
So are you saying that if something is not specifically made illegal, it is legal?

I suppose that could be an argument in a vacuum but you neglect to consider the fact you are working from a basis of something that is illegal, and giving specific examples of when it is legal. In that case, if it is not mentioned, it is still illegal.

As for your analogy to the tourists, there is no requirement they obtain medications in Michigan. They can bring them with them and USE them in Michigan. The argument is easily refuted by suggesting an alternative that will clearly comply with the law.

Recall that the entire basis for the MMMA is that no citizen is required to participate in the program, no are they required to use marijuana once they do. There is also no block to federal prosecution, and the states are not required to enforce federal law. That is how it got past supremacy. You can't pass a state law that forces people to break federal law, nor can you prevent the federal authorities from enforcing federal law.

Just some thoughts.

Dr. Bob
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
Politicians hang out on banking forums where they can find advice ($) they seek.

I bet these clowns would sit down and chat with me if I owned a pharmaceutical company ;-)
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
Politicians hang out on banking forums where they can find advice ($) they seek.

I bet these clowns would sit down and chat with me if I owned a pharmaceutical company ;-)
Bet they would too.

How can cannabis patients make themselves as valuable as pharmaceutical company owners? That is a question I ask myself every day.

Dr. Bob
 

McMedical

Active Member
So are you saying that if something is not specifically made illegal, it is legal?

I suppose that could be an argument in a vacuum but you neglect to consider the fact you are working from a basis of something that is illegal, and giving specific examples of when it is legal. In that case, if it is not mentioned, it is still illegal.

As for your analogy to the tourists, there is no requirement they obtain medications in Michigan. They can bring them with them and USE them in Michigan. The argument is easily refuted by suggesting an alternative that will clearly comply with the law.

Recall that the entire basis for the MMMA is that no citizen is required to participate in the program, no are they required to use marijuana once they do. There is also no block to federal prosecution, and the states are not required to enforce federal law. That is how it got past supremacy. You can't pass a state law that forces people to break federal law, nor can you prevent the federal authorities from enforcing federal law.

Just some thoughts.

Dr. Bob



It was not my analogy. It was the analogy that McQueen's lawyer used.

Now for the Law

"Medical use" means the acquisition, possession, cultivation, manufacture, use, internal possession, delivery, transfer, or transportation of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the administration of marihuana to treat or alleviate a registered qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition.


4. Protections for the Medical Use of Marihuana.
Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the qualifying patient possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana, and, if the qualifying patient has not specified that a primary caregiver will be allowed under state law to cultivate marihuana for the qualifying patient, 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility. Any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots shall also be allowed under state law and shall not be included in this amount.

"Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act,"

McQueen's argument is that patient to patient transfer is protected in Sec.4. (a) in the act.

The use of "a qualifying patient" rather than "the qualifying patient" in the legal definition of medical use and in Sec.4. (a) is what should protect P2P transfer under the law.

Now I think its fair to say that a caregiver who is not also a patient could not engage in patient to patient transfers...obviously

You are 100% correct when it comes to the COA ruling, but McQueen's lawyer argued these points well enough that I feel that the Justices will rule in favor of P2P transfer. Of course it could go either way.

I just think we should stay calm until the ruling comes out. It is the responsibility of these judges to question every angle of this act, and we should not react irrationally when listening to questioning that sounds like they may have a pro or negative position when it comes to patient to patient. Almost every type of Supreme Court case will be filled with questioning that leads you to believe they have a pro or negative opinion. Just look at Justice Roberts with "Obamacare"...

Very exciting!




 

The Growery

Active Member
I think p2p would be fantastic. benefits the patient with more choices and cheaper prices, benefits the caregiver with a safe outlet to get rid of any overages, forces dispensaries to bring it better meds and more competitive pricing to match the individual caregiver with minimal overhead. I say bring it on!
 

hockey4848

Well-Known Member
So will we know by the 1st of the year if P2P is allowed or not? If it is NOT allowed will the clubs close? Will they find a way around it?
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
I do believe this MMMP has to have a start point regardless of the "letter of the law" specifically leaving it out. Furthermore, it is my belief that the "spirit of the law" to be medication for patients from patients ...
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
Ok, so it comes down to the use of 'a' or 'their'. Given that the section is discussing the registry connection between patient and caregiver, do you believe the court will use the 'a' to mean any patient, or the patient to which the caregiver is associated though the registry? If it is to any patient, what is to stop a caregiver from servicing 100 'a' patients? Why is a registry connection needed at all, especially if it limited a caregiver to just servicing 5 patients? The answer is compensation. That is what requires a registry connection.

The argument that transferring marijuana is part of 'medical use' has also been explored. McQueen did that in the COA. Part of that argument concerned the difference between 'transfer' and 'sale'. Again, it came down to compensation. Transfer was covered under the Act as medical use. Sale was not. This was confirmed in several non-binding district court cases, most notably in Barry Co. In that case, criminal charges were dismissed because the transfer of an amount of cannabis (2.5 oz or less) was an amount both transferring and receiving patient were allowed to possess, and the transfer SPECIFICALLY did not involve compensation. The lack of compensation was the main reason the charges were dismissed (see transcript).

The analogy that selling a patient cannabis and calling it 'assisting with medical use' is the same as selling someone gasoline (a product) and claiming it is 'assisting' the patient in the use of their car. Compare that to the old days when we had self serve and full serve gas- while the full serve (they pump) cost more than self serve (you pump), if you were handicapped the attendant would pump your gas for you at the self serve pump. This is 'assisting' the handicapped customer to purchase gas at the self serve price (there was no compensation for the 'assistance').

I really believe the court is not going to buy the 'a' vs 'their' argument as somehow giving people extra benefits for not participating in the registry over those that do (who are limited to 5 patients). To do so would encourage people not to register their patients/caregivers and quite frankly would be against public policy. I also don't think that the 'transfer is medical use' argument will fly either if compensation is involved.

If I were a betting man, my money would be on the following: Compensation is limited to transfers between a caregiver and their 5 registered patients. Transfer as medical use between those legally allowed to possess (patients) without any direct or indirect compensation on a compassionate basis only. By that I mean if you are a patient and have medication, and the elderly patient on chemo next door is barfing their brains out and is out of meds, you will be able out of the kindness of your nature give them a little to get through the episode, expecting nothing in return. I believe that commercial sales of cannabis between non-registry associated patients, caregivers, or counter people will not be allowed.

In any event I think the 'a' vs 'their' and 'medical use' arguments will be settled one way or the other when they rule. I for one think that once it is settled, either way, patients will be safer because they know what is expected of them, they will clearly know the rules. And it will quiet the folks on the net that come up with wild legal theories, present them as fact, and encourage patients and caregivers to engage in activity that might result in those patients and caregivers having to fight for their freedom in court at great emotional and financial expense.

Dr. Bob
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
One elegant and simple way to deal with this potential result which has some support in Lansing and would help patients and the state would be to allow caregivers to purchase tax stamps for their overages (a stamp an ounce). The tax stamp acts kind of like the 'on the spot' permit you get from the cop that allows you to possess and process the deer that just took out the front end of your car. With the stamp, you become the 'temporary caregiver' of any patient or caregiver that wishes to buy that measured amount of cannabis at a farmers market.

Dr. Bob
 
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