ph issues in flowering

xristina

Member
Sup RIU

third week into flowering :D Buds starting to show more and more everyday.. Everything's going smoothly. first grow - nft with 2 girls (White Widow & Amnesia).
My only issues is Ph in flowering. While in veg, pH was allways stable to 5.7-5.9. By the time I switched to flowering nutes last week, Ph is allways 6.5, no matter how much Ph Down I add.
To be more specific: 1 week ago when I added the flowering nutes, I also added 10 drops of Ph down to my 40 litre tank (same as veg). At the beginning, ph dropped to 6.0, but after some hours it was back to 6.5. Same thing today. Ph was 6.5, I added 15 drops of ph down and ths time, it didnt even bother dropping... lol.
Anyways, I thought there is some problem with the meter - checked it with tap water - distilled water and tp water with ph down added (no nutrients). Ph dropped as it was supposed to. Conclusion: Ph meter works just fine and no probs with the ph down.
Next thought is that the flowering nutes (Canna Aqua Flores etc) are much more alkaline, thus this happens. Nevertheless, being my first grow, I'm a little worried and I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
Suggestions/thoughts/help will be much appreciated, (+rep)
Thanks in advance for any replies.

Cheers!
 

Bigz2277

Well-Known Member
Sup RIU

third week into flowering :D Buds starting to show more and more everyday.. Everything's going smoothly. first grow - nft with 2 girls (White Widow & Amnesia).
My only issues is Ph in flowering. While in veg, pH was allways stable to 5.7-5.9. By the time I switched to flowering nutes last week, Ph is allways 6.5, no matter how much Ph Down I add.
To be more specific: 1 week ago when I added the flowering nutes, I also added 10 drops of Ph down to my 40 litre tank (same as veg). At the beginning, ph dropped to 6.0, but after some hours it was back to 6.5. Same thing today. Ph was 6.5, I added 15 drops of ph down and ths time, it didnt even bother dropping... lol.
Anyways, I thought there is some problem with the meter - checked it with tap water - distilled water and tp water with ph down added (no nutrients). Ph dropped as it was supposed to. Conclusion: Ph meter works just fine and no probs with the ph down.
Next thought is that the flowering nutes (Canna Aqua Flores etc) are much more alkaline, thus this happens. Nevertheless, being my first grow, I'm a little worried and I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
Suggestions/thoughts/help will be much appreciated, (+rep)
Thanks in advance for any replies.

Cheers!
drop it to 5.6, plants drink more nutes in flowering and will continue to do so throughout. As the plants use the nutrients it will use it. Now that being said, thats a normal ph swing. if your ph is going from 6.0 to 6.5 in a matter of hours then that is a pretty good indicator you have bad things in your setup. Do you use any sort of root protection? teas/h202?
 

xristina

Member
no, i dont use anything apart from the nutes.. Apart from this issues, everything else seems to be going fine.. Roots (perfect colour), growth (tremendous in my eyes) and buds start to show..
I even did experiments, as I said, monitoring ph values of distilled water, ph values of tap water, tap water + nutes, tap water+nutes+ph down.. everything I could do...
In my last experiment, I put 300 ml of tap water (ph 7.1), 10ml of Aqua Flores A+B and 5 drops of ph down. Ph dropped to 2.5 and stayed there.. Next to this jug, I put 300 ml of the same tap water with only 5 drops of ph down and the ph againb dropped to 2.5.
Anyway, the only case is the tank.. 15 minutes after I added ph down, I monitored it and AGAIN 6.5...
You might be right in what ur saying, however I cant find the reason at the moment.
Attached are some pics of the girls.. If u have any other thoughts, I'd gladly hear them :)

P3221929.jpgP3221930.jpgP3221931.jpg


Cheers
 

Bigz2277

Well-Known Member
ya there is something bad in your setup. is there anything hitting the water besides the plants? any piece of tap dipping in, any water soluble tap / building glue etc... if not then i think you have something growing in parts where u cant see. mildew, mold etc.. if you dont have the time to read up and brew the teas of beneficial bacteria to combat it, then get a gallon of food grade h202 ~ 35$ at grow shops. I use 2 mL/gal every 3 days. normal ph swings for me, but im dwc. lets parts to get infected (pumps sprayers drip lines) i would take all the plumbing lines you have and boil them. and repeat the tests
 

xristina

Member
thought of that already.. nothing gets in touch with the water.. tank got cleaned a couple of days ago, changed the mat, cleaned the pump & the filter inside the pump. I used the 20 remaining litres in the tank (with the nutes), added another 20 litres of tap water and added the appropriate amount of nutes, I left it for 2-3 hours and then turned on the pump.
Dunno, dont think its a matter of something growing anywhere in the tank (cant be sure though).
My only concern is the RU, being lights on around 40-45% and light off around 50-55%. I know its elevated, but I really doubt that this also to be the reason...
Anyway, next weekend I'll fill the tank with new tap water & nutes, as I'm heading to the week of the PK 13/14 nute, and monitor it again...
Thanks for all the replies and help, m8 :)
I also saw your setup, nice job :clap:

cheers
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
Maybe your nutrients are to weak?

If your nutes are at 500ppm and two days later there at 350ppm you need to up your ppm! It works like this, change res set ppm at, say 600ppm ph 5.9 run for 24hrs, now if you ppm rise and ph drops nutes are too strong. If ppm drop and ph rises, nutes are too weak. But if your ppm and ph are basically stable then you have found the right mix for your plants.
 

xristina

Member
I hadnt thought of this :))
I'm going to test it :-o thanx for the info :)
By the way, TDS right now is 1100 ppm (dropped around 100-150 ppm from the time I changed the water and the nutes to Canna Flores & rest, aprox. 2 weeks after I switched to 12/12). At the moment, I'm at the second week of the first Generative period (according to the following guide)
I use the Canna Grow Guide ( http://www.cannagardening.ca/growguide )
Am I doing something wrong ?
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
I hadnt thought of this :))
I'm going to test it :-o thanx for the info :)
By the way, TDS right now is 1100 ppm (dropped around 100-150 ppm from the time I changed the water and the nutes to Canna Flores & rest, aprox. 2 weeks after I switched to 12/12). At the moment, I'm at the second week of the first Generative period (according to the following guide)
I use the Canna Grow Guide ( http://www.cannagardening.ca/growguide )
Am I doing something wrong ?

nope, if any company knows what their doing it's Canna, but remember it's a guide or a starting point, all plants take up different amounts of elements so your at 1100 and maybe you should be 1200 to 1400 than your pH swings should stop. When was the last time you changed you res out? What meter are you using? need the conversion factor, is it 5 or 7?
 

xristina

Member
Yeap, I know and I use it like a starting point, until I get more experienced :D.
TDS is not far off Canna's suggestions (1200 ppm around for normal feeding).I'm 1 month into flowering (first 2 weeks with mostly veg nutes, then changed to new water and added the flowering nutes for the first time. It's been two weeks now with the flowering nutes and some days ago I added water to the existing solution, adding the appropriate amount of nutes, so that the strength is the same.
I have to point out now that the issues with Ph appeared once I switched to the Flower nutes. With the veg nutes, ph was so stable that I never used ph down.
My ph meter is the ph-009 PH-009-2.jpg
Next weekend, I'll change the res, adding new water and nutrients (it'll be the week I'll use the Pk 13/14 nute). I think I'm gonna leave things as they are for now {I thought of adding more ph down,but I dont want to risk making any 'serious' mistakes}, and monitor ph levels again on the weekend..
I dont remember anything about the conversion factor, so please explain if you can :)

Cheers!
 

longroot

Well-Known Member
Yeap, I know and I use it like a starting point, until I get more experienced :D.
TDS is not far off Canna's suggestions (1200 ppm around for normal feeding).I'm 1 month into flowering (first 2 weeks with mostly veg nutes, then changed to new water and added the flowering nutes for the first time. It's been two weeks now with the flowering nutes and some days ago I added water to the existing solution, adding the appropriate amount of nutes, so that the strength is the same.
I have to point out now that the issues with Ph appeared once I switched to the Flower nutes. With the veg nutes, ph was so stable that I never used ph down.
My ph meter is the ph-009 View attachment 2085877
Next weekend, I'll change the res, adding new water and nutrients (it'll be the week I'll use the Pk 13/14 nute). I think I'm gonna leave things as they are for now {I thought of adding more ph down,but I dont want to risk making any 'serious' mistakes}, and monitor ph levels again on the weekend..
I dont remember anything about the conversion factor, so please explain if you can :)

Cheers!
Good idea. Just keep an eye on your plants. Theyll let you know when somethings wrong.
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
have a read, do you have a PPM meter?

http://www.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=592&yearVar=2010&issueVar=July&featureVar=true

What is the difference between ppm and EC?permalink
[HR][/HR]​
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) is the best measurement of the nutrient concentration of a hydroponic solution. To estimate TDS, one can use a meter that measures the Electric Conductivity (EC) of a solution, and convert the number to TDS in parts per million (ppm). Many meters will do this conversion.

Total dissolved solids (TDS) is typically expressed in parts per million (ppm). It is a measurement of mass and determined by weighing, called a gravimetric analysis. A solution of nutrients dissolved in water at a strength of 700 ppm means that there are 700 milligrams if dissolved solids present for every liter of water. To accurately calculate total dissolved solids (TDS), one would evaporate a measured filtered sample to dryness, and weigh the residue. This type of measurement requires accurate liquid measurement, glassware, a drying oven, and a milligram balance. Example: 50 mL of the 700ppm solution would leave 35 mg of salt at the bottom of a crucible after drying.

Electrical Conductivity (EC) is expressed in siemens per centimeter (s/cm) or milliseimens per centimeter(ms/cm). It can be determined with an inexpensive hand held meter. Nutrient ions have an electrical charge, a whole number, usually a positive or negative 1, 2, or 3. EC is a measurement of all those charges in the solution that conduct electricity. The greater the quantity of nutrient ions in a solution, the more electricity that will be conducted by that solution. A material has a conductance of one siemens if one ampere of electric current can pass through it per volt of electric potential. It is the reciprocal of the ohm, the standard unit of electrical resistance. A siemens is also called a mho (ohm backwards).

For convenience, EC measurements often are converted to TDS units (ppm) by the meter.

The meter cannot directly measure TDS as described above, and instead uses a linear conversion factor to calculate it. Everyone’s nutrient mix is different, so no factor will be exact. The meter uses an approximate conversion factor, because the exact composition of the mix is not known. Conversion factors range from .50 to .72, *depending on the meter manufacturer, which do a good job of approximating a TDS calculation from the meter’s measurement of EC.

* All ppm pens actually measure the value based on EC and then convert the EC value to display the ppm value, having different conversion factors between differing manufacturers is why we have this problem communicating nutrient measurments between one another.

EC is measured in millisiemens per centimeter (ms/cm) or microsiemens per centimeter (us/cm).

One millisiemen = 1000 microsiemens.

EC and CF (Conductivity Factor) are easily converted between each other.
1 ms/cm = 10 CF

"The communication problem"...
So again, the problem is that different ppm pen manufacturers use different conversion factors to calculate the ppm they display. All ppm (TDS, Total Dissolved Solids) pens actually measure in EC or CF and run a conversion program to display the reading in ppm's.

There are three conversion factors which various manufacturers use for displaying ppm's...

USA 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 500 ppm
European 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 640 ppm
Australian 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 700 ppm

For example,
Hanna, Milwaukee 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 500 ppm
Eutech 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 640 ppm
Truncheon 1 ms/cm (EC 1.0 or CF 10) = 700 ppm

Calculating the conversion factor
If your meter allows you to switch between EC and TDS units, your conversion factor can be easily determined by dividing one by the other.

Place the probe in the solution and read TDS in ppm. Change to EC on the meter and read EC in ms/cm.

Conversion factor = ppm / ec.
[Note: ms must be converted to us: One millisiemen = 1000 microsiemens (1.0 ms/cm = 1000.0 us/cm)

According to the chart below:
1.0 ms/cm = 500 ppm (USA Hanna)
1000 us/cm = 500 ppm

Conversion factor = ppm / (ms/cm * 1000)
.50 = 500ppm / (1000us/cm) ]

The answer is your meter's convertion factor and should be a number between 0.50 and 0.72 To improve accuracy, take ec and ppm readings from your res daily for about ten days. Average the conversion factors. The more data points that you use, the closer you will be to finding your true conversion factor.

When reporting your PPM in a thread, please give the conversion factor your meter uses. For example: 550 PPM @0.7 or give the reading in EC, which should be the same meter to meter.

It may also be advisable to give the starting value of your water; there is a huge difference between RO and distilled water with a PPM of approximately 0 and hard tap water of PPM 300 @.5 (notice the conversion factor so others can work out the EC) or well water with a conductance of 2.1 ms/cm.


A note to Organic Growers:
An EC meter has fewer applications for a soil grower because many organic nutrients are not electrically charged or are inert. Things like Superthrive or Fish Emulsion, blood meal, rock phosphate or green sand cannot be measured with a meter reliably when they are applied or in runoff. Meters can only measure electrically charged salts in solution.

"The solution"...
When reporting your PPM in a thread please give the conversion factor your meter uses for example 550 PPM @.7 or give the reading in EC (the EC shoul d be the same meter to meter).
 

xristina

Member
thanks for the trouble of posting this... I have the EZ digital TDS meter (if that helps you), but I also have an EC meter reading around 1100-1200 ms/cm (monitored it yesterday).

Thanks for all the help guyz..
 
Top