Possible light issue?

DirtyDogs446

Well-Known Member
1000002823.jpg2 weeks old had them on 75% light intensity about 550 ppf for a few days then turned ir to 50% intensity yesterday which was about 450 ppf and now 25% today which is about 300. Using a 400w led which is actual draw. Watered 2 days ago in happy frog soil 25% perlite. Ph 6.2 temp about 70 humidity about 60. Do you think this was a light issue or maybe an overwatering?
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
View attachment 53701892 weeks old had them on 75% light intensity about 550 ppf for a few days then turned ir to 50% intensity yesterday which was about 450 ppf and now 25% today which is about 300. Using a 400w led which is actual draw. Watered 2 days ago in happy frog soil 25% perlite. Ph 6.2 temp about 70 humidity about 60. Do you think this was a light issue or maybe an overwatering?
What nutes are you using and at what strength?
 

DirtyDogs446

Well-Known Member
I seem to be pretty good on that chart. It may of been overwatering and or light intensity I guess we will see these plants are gorilla glue #4 autos just trying not to waste the little time I have with them
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
View attachment 53701892 weeks old had them on 75% light intensity about 550 ppf for a few days then turned ir to 50% intensity yesterday which was about 450 ppf and now 25% today which is about 300. Using a 400w led which is actual draw. Watered 2 days ago in happy frog soil 25% perlite. Ph 6.2 temp about 70 humidity about 60. Do you think this was a light issue or maybe an overwatering?
550µmol is a lot for a two week old plant. I've never been able to get my plants to that level in that short a time and my approach to lighting is to get my plants to the light saturation point as soon as possible.

Having said that, unless you're using a light meter or software that has been calibrated, I take those values to be suspect. I say that because I've spent time testing Photone and trading emails with the programmer (I've been a software engineer for 30+ years, including three at Apple) and the only way I would use Photone, or any other app, is if it was one of the Phone + Photone combinations that growlightmeter.com will vouch for or if your phone+ Photone have been calibrated to a known good source.

I also have to question whether those values are correct because I push my plants to the light saturation point and, at day 14, my current grow was 300µmol and didn't get over 550 until day 26. I grow in hydro and am a fanatic about go to lengths to maintain my grow at optimal VPD and yet my plant was almost a month old before I got over 550.

All in all, my money (a very small amount) is that you're not hitting 550. My testing with Photone showed it to be 16% high across all dimmer settings and, in just that past few weeks, I've seen a couple of grow journals where the light levels looked to be similarly overstated.

At the other end of the scale, 300µmol, you're back in seedling territory. I would not run my plants at that light level now, for any reason. If your readings are 16% high, that puts you at 250±.

Early symptoms of excess light are light avoidance - tacoing/canoeing and leaves rotating around the petiole. I overloaded a cola a while back and it bent at the top. That was 1200µmol so I earned it. If a grower manages to damage the plant, the leaves "dry out" and have a brittle feeling, followed by tissue death. If you catch excess light before tissue death, my experience has been that the affected leaves will return to their normal orientation pretty quickly, 30 minutes or so.

Unless you've seen those symptoms, I wouldn't attribute this to excess light.

On the other hand, I do see signs of nutrient deficiency and, while increased light can result in a nutrient issue, I believe that is a result of the plants not being able to transpire adequately. And the first place I'd look is VPD.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Vapor Pressure Deficit is the difference in the pressure of the water in the leaf vs the pressure of the (water) vapor in the surrounding air.

For a seedling, the "optimal' VPD is 0.8, in veg it's 1.0, for flower 1.2-1.5.

How can we get our grow environment to "the right" VPD - by changing the temperature and/or RH.

The hardest thing to get your head around is that VPD is one number that define/expresses/is created by different combinations of temperature and RH (VPD also needs leaf surface temperature but I've left that out intentionally).

Check out temperatures and RH values that all result in a VPD of 1.0 in the image below. It's not just one set of temp and RH values, it's a range of temperatures and RH values.

Roll back to VPD is like the feels like temp for humans. Humans do really well in temp and RH values ranging from about 65° and 80% to 80° and 50%. Sure some folks live in more extreme ranges but I'm using these values just as an example.

It's the same thing for plants. They don't need just one temp + RH to thrive, they thrive over a range of temp+RH combinations. Fortunately, VPD allows us to use one number to "define" ("cover") all of those combinations of values.

VPD being "optimal" is a good thing to have because that allows a plant to transpire, which it needs to take up water, bringing in chemicals, and on the top side, the stomata of the leaves open, one reason being to expel water to cool the plant off.

When I started growing in 2021, I used a PulseGrow, an Inkbird controller, and a "reptile" humidifier. The Pulse could tell me the VPD and I would bump the RH value up and down on the Inkbird. Do that for one grow and you will sing praises to AC Infinity (like I did) because I was able to retire that equipment and get out of the RH controller business. The answer was the Controller 69 and their small humidifier. I've been running that for the last year and it's worked very, very well.

The C69 probe is tiny and everything updates on a one second interval. I run their app on an old iPhone (XS Mag) and on a MacBook Air and have a very high opinion of it(I've been a software engineer for 30+ years, including three for Apple.)

Why do VPD? Over the long term, you will get better outcomes.

It's especially helpful for grows where the temperature and/or RH change over the course of the day.

Pulse links to a document that says keeping VPD in range an improve yield by 20%. I don't have many more details that than because I drank the KoolAid on that along time ago and haven't looked back. If anyone's interested in learning more, the resources at their site are pretty good and their tech support is very helpful. Of course, there's other info available on the web but Pulse is the only source that I've dug into.

Pulse is moving away from the personal market and into the commercial market. Their new products came out about a year ago and it would not surprise me in the least if the new products from AC Infinity were a big driver in that change. I don't see the value proposition for a PulseGrow for the personal grower when the AC Infinity products are as extremely accurate (I calibrate the temp and RH values and they were spot on), they're very easy to use, they're cheap, and tech support is good.

</slobbering all over AC Infinity>

1707948450065.png
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Vapor Pressure Deficit is the difference in the pressure of the water in the leaf vs the pressure of the (water) vapor in the surrounding air.

For a seedling, the "optimal' VPD is 0.8, in veg it's 1.0, for flower 1.2-1.5.

How can we get our grow environment to "the right" VPD - by changing the temperature and/or RH.

The hardest thing to get your head around is that VPD is one number that define/expresses/is created by different combinations of temperature and RH (VPD also needs leaf surface temperature but I've left that out intentionally).

Check out temperatures and RH values that all result in a VPD of 1.0 in the image below. It's not just one set of temp and RH values, it's a range of temperatures and RH values.

Roll back to VPD is like the feels like temp for humans. Humans do really well in temp and RH values ranging from about 65° and 80% to 80° and 50%. Sure some folks live in more extreme ranges but I'm using these values just as an example.

It's the same thing for plants. They don't need just one temp + RH to thrive, they thrive over a range of temp+RH combinations. Fortunately, VPD allows us to use one number to "define" ("cover") all of those combinations of values.

VPD being "optimal" is a good thing to have because that allows a plant to transpire, which it needs to take up water, bringing in chemicals, and on the top side, the stomata of the leaves open, one reason being to expel water to cool the plant off.

When I started growing in 2021, I used a PulseGrow, an Inkbird controller, and a "reptile" humidifier. The Pulse could tell me the VPD and I would bump the RH value up and down on the Inkbird. Do that for one grow and you will sing praises to AC Infinity (like I did) because I was able to retire that equipment and get out of the RH controller business. The answer was the Controller 69 and their small humidifier. I've been running that for the last year and it's worked very, very well.

The C69 probe is tiny and everything updates on a one second interval. I run their app on an old iPhone (XS Mag) and on a MacBook Air and have a very high opinion of it(I've been a software engineer for 30+ years, including three for Apple.)

Why do VPD? Over the long term, you will get better outcomes.

It's especially helpful for grows where the temperature and/or RH change over the course of the day.

Pulse links to a document that says keeping VPD in range an improve yield by 20%. I don't have many more details that than because I drank the KoolAid on that along time ago and haven't looked back. If anyone's interested in learning more, the resources at their site are pretty good and their tech support is very helpful. Of course, there's other info available on the web but Pulse is the only source that I've dug into.

Pulse is moving away from the personal market and into the commercial market. Their new products came out about a year ago and it would not surprise me in the least if the new products from AC Infinity were a big driver in that change. I don't see the value proposition for a PulseGrow for the personal grower when the AC Infinity products are as extremely accurate (I calibrate the temp and RH values and they were spot on), they're very easy to use, they're cheap, and tech support is good.

</slobbering all over AC Infinity>

View attachment 5370330
What he said.... lol

And agree 100% on ac infinity. Even their oscillating fans are pretty decent, imo.

I use their cloud forge t7, and it's way too much for my 3x3. It's nice not having to refill the res daily anymore though.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
What he said.... lol

And agree 100% on ac infinity. Even their oscillating fans are pretty decent, imo.

I use their cloud forge t7, and it's way too much for my 3x3. It's nice not having to refill the res daily anymore though.
Yeh, yeh, I know.

I'm trying to avoid working but it's not working…
 

DirtyDogs446

Well-Known Member
Vapor Pressure Deficit is the difference in the pressure of the water in the leaf vs the pressure of the (water) vapor in the surrounding air.

For a seedling, the "optimal' VPD is 0.8, in veg it's 1.0, for flower 1.2-1.5.

How can we get our grow environment to "the right" VPD - by changing the temperature and/or RH.

The hardest thing to get your head around is that VPD is one number that define/expresses/is created by different combinations of temperature and RH (VPD also needs leaf surface temperature but I've left that out intentionally).

Check out temperatures and RH values that all result in a VPD of 1.0 in the image below. It's not just one set of temp and RH values, it's a range of temperatures and RH values.

Roll back to VPD is like the feels like temp for humans. Humans do really well in temp and RH values ranging from about 65° and 80% to 80° and 50%. Sure some folks live in more extreme ranges but I'm using these values just as an example.

It's the same thing for plants. They don't need just one temp + RH to thrive, they thrive over a range of temp+RH combinations. Fortunately, VPD allows us to use one number to "define" ("cover") all of those combinations of values.

VPD being "optimal" is a good thing to have because that allows a plant to transpire, which it needs to take up water, bringing in chemicals, and on the top side, the stomata of the leaves open, one reason being to expel water to cool the plant off.

When I started growing in 2021, I used a PulseGrow, an Inkbird controller, and a "reptile" humidifier. The Pulse could tell me the VPD and I would bump the RH value up and down on the Inkbird. Do that for one grow and you will sing praises to AC Infinity (like I did) because I was able to retire that equipment and get out of the RH controller business. The answer was the Controller 69 and their small humidifier. I've been running that for the last year and it's worked very, very well.

The C69 probe is tiny and everything updates on a one second interval. I run their app on an old iPhone (XS Mag) and on a MacBook Air and have a very high opinion of it(I've been a software engineer for 30+ years, including three for Apple.)

Why do VPD? Over the long term, you will get better outcomes.

It's especially helpful for grows where the temperature and/or RH change over the course of the day.

Pulse links to a document that says keeping VPD in range an improve yield by 20%. I don't have many more details that than because I drank the KoolAid on that along time ago and haven't looked back. If anyone's interested in learning more, the resources at their site are pretty good and their tech support is very helpful. Of course, there's other info available on the web but Pulse is the only source that I've dug into.

Pulse is moving away from the personal market and into the commercial market. Their new products came out about a year ago and it would not surprise me in the least if the new products from AC Infinity were a big driver in that change. I don't see the value proposition for a PulseGrow for the personal grower when the AC Infinity products are as extremely accurate (I calibrate the temp and RH values and they were spot on), they're very easy to use, they're cheap, and tech support is good.

</slobbering all over AC Infinity>

View attachment 5370330
Ty for all the info I will try to focus on this chart
 

DirtyDogs446

Well-Known Member
550µmol is a lot for a two week old plant. I've never been able to get my plants to that level in that short a time and my approach to lighting is to get my plants to the light saturation point as soon as possible.

Having said that, unless you're using a light meter or software that has been calibrated, I take those values to be suspect. I say that because I've spent time testing Photone and trading emails with the programmer (I've been a software engineer for 30+ years, including three at Apple) and the only way I would use Photone, or any other app, is if it was one of the Phone + Photone combinations that growlightmeter.com will vouch for or if your phone+ Photone have been calibrated to a known good source.

I also have to question whether those values are correct because I push my plants to the light saturation point and, at day 14, my current grow was 300µmol and didn't get over 550 until day 26. I grow in hydro and am a fanatic about go to lengths to maintain my grow at optimal VPD and yet my plant was almost a month old before I got over 550.

All in all, my money (a very small amount) is that you're not hitting 550. My testing with Photone showed it to be 16% high across all dimmer settings and, in just that past few weeks, I've seen a couple of grow journals where the light levels looked to be similarly overstated.

At the other end of the scale, 300µmol, you're back in seedling territory. I would not run my plants at that light level now, for any reason. If your readings are 16% high, that puts you at 250±.

Early symptoms of excess light are light avoidance - tacoing/canoeing and leaves rotating around the petiole. I overloaded a cola a while back and it bent at the top. That was 1200µmol so I earned it. If a grower manages to damage the plant, the leaves "dry out" and have a brittle feeling, followed by tissue death. If you catch excess light before tissue death, my experience has been that the affected leaves will return to their normal orientation pretty quickly, 30 minutes or so.

Unless you've seen those symptoms, I wouldn't attribute this to excess light.

On the other hand, I do see signs of nutrient deficiency and, while increased light can result in a nutrient issue, I believe that is a result of the plants not being able to transpire adequately. And the first place I'd look is VPD.
With using the app on my phone and comparing it to what the manufacturer has said the ppf should be at what distance it is very very close. I moved the light high as it could go yesterday haven't been home sense today I will go over the vpd scale you gave me
 

DanKiller

Well-Known Member
They seem to be overwatered from the RH
High RH needs high heat and high light intensity coupled in order to achieve optimal growth rates.
Make sure you are optimal not in the VPD chart, but in terms of phase of growth, you can start pushing them now as they have some leaf to absorb.
At this stage I set RH to 70-80%
And temp to 29-31c.
Intensity of lights always 100% but I use HIDs so in leds this might be different as different boards and diodes have different impacts at this and that heights and intensity.
 
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