Progressives: Is this what you have in mind?

Stoney McFried · Sep 3, 2009

I found this on yahoo answers, can't vouch for the accuracy.

Well in the UK, the main taxes we have to pay are the Income Tax, which as in America is a progressive system, the amount you pay is dependent on how much you earn. The more you earn, the more you pay, theoretically. We also pay something called National Insurance which pays for the pensions of today's retirees and pensioners.

We also get a personal allowance, a fixed amount that is tax free, ie. it isn't included in tax calculations. Currently, a single person has a personal allowance of £5,435.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CALCULATIONS ARE FOR A SINGLE PERSON IN PAID EMPLOYMENT

The current income tax brackets are:

Starting rate (£0-£36,000) - 20%
Higher rate (over £36,000) - 40%

People earning:

£10,000 - £913 paid in tax (9% tax rate)
£15,000 - £1,913 paid in tax (13% tax rate)
£20,000 - £2,913 paid in tax (19.5% tax rate)
£40,000 - £6,913 paid in tax (17.25% tax rate)
£100,000 - £30,626 paid in tax (30.5% tax rate)

So there is a slight discrepancy with people earning £40,000 a year in that they pay a slightly less proportion of their income in income tax and I think the recent abolition of the starting rate of 10% was the cause of that.

National Insurance is far more complicated to calculate as it is based off your weekly income. I've done the calculations for you here as follows:

People earning:

£10,000 - £585 paid in NI
£15,000 - £1,135 paid in NI
£20,000 - £1,685 paid in NI
£40,000 - £3,885 paid in NI
£100,000 - £4,490 paid in NI

Thus the basic taxes, the ones you see on your payslip each month are as follows, in total:

People earning:

£10,000 - £1,498 paid in tax (15% tax rate)
£15,000 - £3,048 paid in tax (20% tax rate)
£20,000 - £4,598 paid in tax (23% tax rate)
£40,000 - £10,798 paid in tax (27% tax rate)
£100,000 - £35,116 paid in tax (35% tax rate)

So that's the amount we pay in basic taxes, but we pay a lot more taxes in the forms of a Sales Tax we call Value Added Tax which is applied to all non-essential items, which is at 17.5%. Then we have a petrol tax (Fuel Duty), then we also have duty to pay on cigarettes, cigars, alcohol etc. Depending on how you spend your money and what you spend it on, you could end up pay up more in tax.
Source(s):

HMRC Website and mathematical know how :-)

1 year ago

Anjinsan said:
In their system...nobody. But what to do? They've already paid into the system through high taxes...they absolutely do not have enough to go to a private doctor.

Anjinsan · Sep 3, 2009

Stoney McFried said:
Well in the UK, the main taxes we have to pay are the Income Tax, which as in America is a progressive system, the amount you pay is dependent on how much you earn. The more you earn, the more you pay, theoretically. We also pay something called National Insurance which pays for the pensions of today's retirees and pensioners.

We also get a personal allowance, a fixed amount that is tax free, ie. it isn't included in tax calculations. Currently, a single person has a personal allowance of £5,435.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CALCULATIONS ARE FOR A SINGLE PERSON IN PAID EMPLOYMENT

The current income tax brackets are:

Starting rate (£0-£36,000) - 20%
Higher rate (over £36,000) - 40%

People earning:

£10,000 - £913 paid in tax (9% tax rate)
£15,000 - £1,913 paid in tax (13% tax rate)
£20,000 - £2,913 paid in tax (19.5% tax rate)
£40,000 - £6,913 paid in tax (17.25% tax rate)
£100,000 - £30,626 paid in tax (30.5% tax rate)

So there is a slight discrepancy with people earning £40,000 a year in that they pay a slightly less proportion of their income in income tax and I think the recent abolition of the starting rate of 10% was the cause of that.

National Insurance is far more complicated to calculate as it is based off your weekly income. I've done the calculations for you here as follows:

People earning:

£10,000 - £585 paid in NI
£15,000 - £1,135 paid in NI
£20,000 - £1,685 paid in NI
£40,000 - £3,885 paid in NI
£100,000 - £4,490 paid in NI

Thus the basic taxes, the ones you see on your payslip each month are as follows, in total:

People earning:

£10,000 - £1,498 paid in tax (15% tax rate)
£15,000 - £3,048 paid in tax (20% tax rate)
£20,000 - £4,598 paid in tax (23% tax rate)
£40,000 - £10,798 paid in tax (27% tax rate)
£100,000 - £35,116 paid in tax (35% tax rate)

So that's the amount we pay in basic taxes, but we pay a lot more taxes in the forms of a Sales Tax we call Value Added Tax which is applied to all non-essential items, which is at 17.5%. Then we have a petrol tax (Fuel Duty), then we also have duty to pay on cigarettes, cigars, alcohol etc. Depending on how you spend your money and what you spend it on, you could end up pay up more in tax.
Source(s):

HMRC Website and mathematical know how

1 year ago

I'm not sure I understand your point. You quoted me so I'm assuming it's for my benefit that you google searched.

For example that petrol tax...well their gas winds up being about $7 a gallon.

The VAT (value added tax) is about triple our nationally averaged sales tax.

They really have a 20% tax bracket and a 40% tax bracket.

The National Insurance tax is the new tax that you wish to add to America...yes? The same taxes the English for decades have complained are just additional income taxes with a pretty name. I should know 3/4 of my family is English. Most of them still are in the country.

The tack on taxes of England are where our government gets their ideas! Inheritance taxes, stamp duty taxes, excise duties... shit tax wise England is the KING. They invented the income tax don't you know. Guess what for? If you guessed war funding/weapons funding you win a prize.

I live by a simple motto:

Big government is worse...always.

I am correct.

Stoney McFried · Sep 3, 2009

Just giving you some numbers to look at. :leaf:

Anjinsan said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. You quoted me so I'm assuming it's for my benefit that you google searched.

For example that petrol tax...well their gas winds up being about $7 a gallon.

The VAT (value added tax) is about triple our nationally averaged sales tax.

They really have a 20% tax bracket and a 40% tax bracket.

The National Insurance tax is the new tax that you wish to add to America...yes? The same taxes the English for decades have complained are just additional income taxes with a pretty name. I should know 3/4 of my family is English. Most of them still are in the country.

The tack on taxes of England are where our government gets their ideas! Inheritance taxes, stamp duty taxes, excise duties... shit tax wise England is the KING. They invented the income tax don't you know. Guess what for? If you guessed war funding/weapons funding you win a prize.

I live by a simple motto:

Big government is worse...always.

I am correct.

ChChoda · Sep 5, 2009

jrh72582 said:
Nope. Not what I have in mind. Just because the NHS has these problems in no way determines our system. Like the article said, the problem was a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have already concluded that our system will end up EXACTLY the same as the NHS, but that's a bit obtuse. We could learn from their mistakes and make our healthcare system more efficient, effective, and self-sustaining.

More people (way more), with a bigger budget (way bigger), with a much bigger deficit

idea

, equals a bigger mistake

wall

, on a much bigger scale

clap

, with much worse consequences

fire

. Yep.

jrh72582 said:
I refuse to believe that we are determined by what others have done. We're the most ingenious and productive nation on the planet. We can make anything work. Fuck the NHS - we'll do it differently.

What made us, U.S., great, is self determination, not bigger government with ever expanding control over us. That is exactly what MAKES US different. That we do it differently, i.e., on our own, our own way, always.

jrh72582 said:
I simply don't understand the logic. Well, the NHS has these problems. If we do it, we'll have the SAME problems. So we better not do it. How defeatist. Why not just avoid those problems? We have HINDSIGHT! Come on man...

Why don't you move there and help them finish the dream then. To where the living is good, for you. In all seriousness.

ChChoda · Sep 5, 2009

fdd2blk said:
if the government didn't take care of them, who would?

They themselves would have. If the government hadn't lied to them by promising them "life long" medical care, stole their savings through taxation to fund the lie of "life long" medical care, and then letting them, the oldsters, die realizing they've been had because "life long" was a term devised by bureaucrats.

fdd2blk · Sep 5, 2009

ChChoda said:
They themselves would have. If the government hadn't lied to them by promising them "life long" medical care, stole their savings through taxation to fund the lie of "life long" medical care, and then letting them, the oldsters, die realizing they've been had because "life long" was a term devised by bureaucrats.

even i'm not that gullible. :roll:

hanimmal · Sep 5, 2009

What made us, U.S., great, is self determination, not bigger government with ever expanding control over us. That is exactly what MAKES US different. That we do it differently, i.e., on our own, our own way, always.

You don't think they have self determination in other countries?

What makes the US great is the fact that we have almost every economic natural resource advantage here, and great luck. When there are wars it is not here. We never have to pay the toll of damage of our actions.

It is like a party, when you have blow outs at someone elses house all the time, and your home is always so clean and tidy, if you decided to have those blowouts at your place, imagine how long it would be that way.

ViRedd · Sep 5, 2009

FlyLikeAnEagle said:
When some of you give up your Medicare and Social Security then I'll have some respect, otherwise you're just buying into the fear. You should also stop using the mail and use FEDEX instead, I'm sure you would rather pay $25 rather than 50 cents to send a letter to prevent communism.

I receive both Social Security and Medicare benefits. I've been paying into Social Security for 58 years and into Medicare for over 40 years.

Do you honestly think that I should just let the government keep that money before I can comment on our slide down the slippery slope of communism/fascism?

Do you think that by the very fact that I receive these benefits that I support socialism? WTF? It was the socialistic mindset that placed the gun at my freakin' head in order to extract the funds from my paychecks for over a half a century. I didn't volunteer for Social Security, nor did I volunteer for Medicare ... I was FORCED into it.

On the Post Office vs FED EX and UPS ... Neither FEDX nor UPS are allowed by law to deliver first class mail. I doubt either company would want to. After all, the post office will deliver a letter for 40 cents to the most remote outpost in the country. And why wouldn't they? They, unlike FEDX and UPS, are not concerned with efficiency, cost control, or making a profit.

I'd guess that if offered the chance to deliver first class mail, both FEDX and UPS would turn the opportunity down

Vi

hanimmal · Sep 5, 2009

I agree that they would turn it down. That is why I think that in the absence of another good option that it is good for the government to step up.

But it is moot point now, our technology has evolved to the point that the post office is irrelevant and can go away.

ChChoda · Sep 5, 2009

hanimmal said:
You don't think they have self determination in other countries?

What makes the US great is the fact that we have almost every economic natural resource advantage here, and great luck. When there are wars it is not here. We never have to pay the toll of damage of our actions.

It is like a party, when you have blow outs at someone elses house all the time, and your home is always so clean and tidy, if you decided to have those blowouts at your place, imagine how long it would be that way.

I don't believe any other country has a founding document like ours. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Not, of the government, by the government, for the people, as is preached elsewhere/most everywhere else.

As for the resources, the USSR was extremely resource rich. What they lacked was ingenuity and efficiency. Taking the decision making process away from millions and millions of individuals and resting it in the hands of a government who always has the final say tends to do that to an economy. As for luck it tends to be random. Even if your "lucky", you still have to be able to endure the "luckless", or even "unlucky" bouts. Capitalism is a great buffer against "bad luck", and never receives credit for the periods of "good luck". Yet capitalists enjoy the best "luck" of all.

Our "clean and tidy" house will be the new permanent location of the "blowout" if we pass government run health care. Puke on the counters, people sleeping on the floors, shit smeared on the walls, people fighting and bleeding in the halls, and that will just be the E.R.

ChChoda · Sep 5, 2009

fdd2blk said:
even i'm not that gullible.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time :roll:

, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

hanimmal · Sep 5, 2009

I don't believe any other country has a founding document like ours. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Not, of the government, by the government, for the people, as is preached elsewhere/most everywhere else.

Lots of countries have documents like ours. I don't understand why people think that we are so unique, we just were the first.

As for the resources, the USSR was extremely resource rich. What they lacked was ingenuity and efficiency. Taking the decision making process away from millions and millions of individuals and resting it in the hands of a government who always has the final say tends to do that to an economy. As for luck it tends to be random. Even if your "lucky", you still have to be able to endure the "luckless", or even "unlucky" bouts. Capitalism is a great buffer against "bad luck", and never receives credit for the periods of "good luck". Yet capitalists enjoy the best "luck" of all.

Russia had lots of rebuilding to do after WWII, and they also had the equally hard time of fighting several wars to keep the "stolen" countries.

Add into that the fact that communism doesn't work and they were going to fail. Now they are rebuilding from the USSR days and still have not gotten to where they could have been.

I agree that Capitalism is the best way that we have in this world now. But that doesn't mean it is perfect.

Our "clean and tidy" house will be the new permanent location of the "blowout" if we pass government run health care. Puke on the counters, people sleeping on the floors, shit smeared on the walls, people fighting and bleeding in the halls, and that will just be the E.R.

I take it you have not ever been in a inner city emergency room. You don't seem to realize you just described our hosiptals as they have been for the last few decades.

ChChoda · Sep 6, 2009

hanimmal said:
Lots of countries have documents like ours. I don't understand why people think that we are so unique, we just were the first.

So being the first doesn't make us unique? And lots? Who else?

hanimmal said:
Russia had lots of rebuilding to do after WWII, and they also had the equally hard time of fighting several wars to keep the "stolen" countries.

So did Germany and Japan, and look at them now.

hanimmal said:
Add into that the fact that communism doesn't work and they were going to fail. Now they are rebuilding from the USSR days and still have not gotten to where they could have been.

I agree that Capitalism is the best way that we have in this world now. But that doesn't mean it is perfect.

The most perfect is as close as you can get to perfect. Of this I'm sure we can agree. This is why the government shouldn't get involved in business, period. They always swing fascist, no matter the "good intentions".

hanimmal said:
I take it you have not ever been in a inner city emergency room. You don't seem to realize you just described our hosiptals as they have been for the last few decades.

Hospitals financed in large part by government grants, I'm sure. Zero fiscal responsibility, just "good intentions". Just like public schools. Just like public anything.

ViRedd · Sep 6, 2009

hanimmal said:
Lots of countries have documents like ours. I don't understand why people think that we are so unique, we just were the first.

True, lots of countries have constitutions, in fact, I have a copy of the constitution and bill of rights for the old Soviet Union. They listed far more rights in their constitution than what we have listed in ours. The difference is, the Russian citizen's rights were bestowed upon them by their government officials. Our rights have been bestowed upon us by our Creator. The Russian constitution "gave" the citizens rights, our constitution restricts government from usurping natural rights from the citizens.

In the Soviet Union, the government officials were superior to the citizen and the citizen answered to the government officials.

In the U.S., we believe, or should believe in order to maintain our liberty, that The Creator came first, then created Man. Man created the Constitution. The Constitution is the framework that established our government. In order to have a government, government officials and bureaucrats had to be created.

So there you have the hierarchy. First, came God. Second, came Man. Third, came the Constitution. Fourth, came government and government officials.

This means that government officials in America answer to the citizen, not the other way around as it was in the Soviet Union.

Our government monopolized schools systems aren't teaching this stuff anymore, are they? :blsmoke:

Vi

macinnis · Sep 7, 2009

ChChoda said:
So being the first doesn't make us unique? And lots? Who else?

So did Germany and Japan, and look at them now.

The most perfect is as close as you can get to perfect. Of this I'm sure we can agree. This is why the government shouldn't get involved in business, period. They always swing fascist, no matter the "good intentions".

Hospitals financed in large part by government grants, I'm sure. Zero fiscal responsibility, just "good intentions". Just like public schools. Just like public anything.

Government shouldn't get involved in business? We should let the Insurance Co's continue to profit by denying care to it's members? We should let the Oil Co's continue to pollute the environment and make $14 billion in one quarter? We should have left child labor to be exploited? We should let our food be contaminated by rat shit, disease, and other crap because the Company makes more money that way? AIG should be left to destroy the economy with crap like subprime loans and derivitaves trading? And on the other hand, you want to see the government stop all subsidies? I wonder how many businesses would fail if that happened and how much inovation we would lose that way?

hanimmal · Sep 7, 2009

In the U.S., we believe, or should believe in order to maintain our liberty, that The Creator came first, then created Man. Man created the Constitution. The Constitution is the framework that established our government. In order to have a government, government officials and bureaucrats had to be created.

So there you have the hierarchy. First, came God. Second, came Man. Third, came the Constitution. Fourth, came government and government officials.

For me my creator is my parents. So in essence I scrap the first one but the rest sounds fine.

This means that government officials in America answer to the citizen, not the other way around as it was in the Soviet Union.

Our government monopolized schools systems aren't teaching this stuff anymore, are they?

And you would be hard pressed to find too many laws enacted that are not the direct cause of people lobbying them (even if those people are the businesses). The issue is that we do not agree with what should be done. So that is why we vote. It just happens that we have been voting in lawyers who instead of the people that understand the changes that are being made.

And no my high school did not go much into the Russian constitution.

I feel that freedoms should be taught by the parents, only they are going to know what they want their children to learn.

Let the schools teach the actual things that are teachable like math, science, economics, ect. And not get weighted down in political discussions that we cannot seem to agree on the best course of action.

doobnVA · Sep 7, 2009

Since he said "founding document", I'd assume he's NOT referring to the Constitution of the United States (as that was written a good 15 years after the founding of this country).

The "founding" document would refer to the Declaration of Independence.

Of course, this is just me thinking logically.

You can all continue your illogical banter now. =)

NoDrama · Sep 7, 2009

ViRedd said:
True, lots of countries have constitutions, in fact, I have a copy of the constitution and bill of rights for the old Soviet Union. They listed far more rights in their constitution than what we have listed in ours. The difference is, the Russian citizen's rights were bestowed upon them by their government officials. Our rights have been bestowed upon us by our Creator. The Russian constitution "gave" the citizens rights, our constitution restricts government from usurping natural rights from the citizens.

In the Soviet Union, the government officials were superior to the citizen and the citizen answered to the government officials.

In the U.S., we believe, or should believe in order to maintain our liberty, that The Creator came first, then created Man. Man created the Constitution. The Constitution is the framework that established our government. In order to have a government, government officials and bureaucrats had to be created.

So there you have the hierarchy. First, came God. Second, came Man. Third, came the Constitution. Fourth, came government and government officials.

This means that government officials in America answer to the citizen, not the other way around as it was in the Soviet Union.

Our government monopolized schools systems aren't teaching this stuff anymore, are they?

Vi

While I'm not quite as old as you are Vi, I think we had very similar upbringings and therefore share common beliefs.

The education system is basically run by the Federal government, so of course they do not teach children that they have rights at all. They teach them to be ethnocentric, racist, bigoted, to kow tow to authority, be part of the group and never an individual. The last thing they do is teach children to think for themselves.

Our education system could have been a world class leader, but the government got involved right away and now we pump out high school seniors that can barely read. Hell just yesterday I watched a young man struggle at the self service lane at the grocery store, he obviously was having difficulty reading the instructions made for a toddler. I had to hold his hand through the whole process just so I could get through myself. I mean when it says " Place item in bag" just why the fuck he thought that meant to place it on the floor is beyond me.

ViRedd · Sep 9, 2009

NoDrama said:
While I'm not quite as old as you are Vi, I think we had very similar upbringings and therefore share common beliefs.

The education system is basically run by the Federal government, so of course they do not teach children that they have rights at all. They teach them to be ethnocentric, racist, bigoted, to kow tow to authority, be part of the group and never an individual. The last thing they do is teach children to think for themselves.

Our education system could have been a world class leader, but the government got involved right away and now we pump out high school seniors that can barely read. Hell just yesterday I watched a young man struggle at the self service lane at the grocery store, he obviously was having difficulty reading the instructions made for a toddler. I had to hold his hand through the whole process just so I could get through myself. I mean when it says " Place item in bag" just why the fuck he thought that meant to place it on the floor is beyond me.

And when was the last time a clerk in any store counted change back to you? :lol:

Here's a good book that I have on my shelf written by Sheldon Richman that you may be interesed in reading, NoDrama. http://www.amazon.com/Separating-School-State-Liberate-Americas/dp/0964044722

Progressives: Is this what you have in mind?

Stoney McFried

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Anjinsan

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Stoney McFried

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ChChoda

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ChChoda

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fdd2blk

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hanimmal

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ViRedd

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hanimmal

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ChChoda

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hanimmal

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ChChoda

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macinnis

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