Rand Paul Wins!!!
- Thread starter Dolce Vita
- Start date
Do you think it is even fathomable that there would come a time when no person would want a loan for anything anymore? I Mean seriously, every time the government spends one more dime than it has is just that much more money that YOU have to finance and pay interest on through taxation. The government is not us, the government are those people in suits who eat at the finest restaurants everyday, who think up schemes to control you in every way possible. Who plan to kill lots of people who do not bow down to them and their mighty war machine. Who make plans to capture other sovereign nations for their resources, decimate its population, assassinate its political enemies. This is not us the citizens of this great nation, this is the people who hold high office who do these things. They could care less about what you and I want, they have us by the Balls. All they have to do is deny credit and the interest that is ever compounding will eventually grow to where it cannot be serviced anymore. Because you see han, the interest is never created therefore the debt can never be paid off. Do you understand what this does to we the people? It makes us slaves to the whims of a few powerful people.
Pay off the principle on all the loans everywhere and you will still owe the interest, but there will be no money because the system works in reverse right? But who created the interest that is due? No one, therefore you will always owe and can never pay it off.
People WILL and MUST take out new loans to service the debt that exists. Because the interest is never created. What part of this aren't you understanding? If no one took out loans ( including Government) but continued to spend for necessities, eventually the USA would run out of money, but the interest would still be due.
In reality, no one engaging in commerce in any country in the world today is actually paying for purchases, that is to say, there is no any actual settlement of any debt. All individuals, corporations and government entities are merely shuffling debts (payable in nothing) between themselves, in the form of either paper bills or digital banking money, whether in dollars or any other currency in the world.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
So you think that when you work and get your paycheck that you are not receiving anything? I am trying to wrap my brain around what you are saying.
When I work, I am creating wealth period.
I would assume since you are a gold fan, that you would at least agree that someone working in a gold mine that pulls out a chunk of gold has at the very least created wealth.
And maybe you would see that anything that helped them to do their job more efficiently to be able to concentrate on pulling gold out of the ground is helping to increase the amount of wealth building.
So if someone is operating a truck to get food to that gold diggers neighborhood so that they can eat and not have to farm on top of digging for gold, they are helping to create wealth, on and on. And in reality any activity that someone is willing to pay for, is a wealth building enterprise, because they are providing something that someone wants and that person is willing to trade some of the value they have received from their labor in order to benefit from another person's labor. Be it them digging for gold, or them working in a call center trying to generate sales for a company.
And people do not HAVE to take out loans to service debts, and what does interest is never created mean? Do you literally mean that the interest should be calculated and the treasury should be printing money based on it? What is the point of that? We spend our cash all the time, we don't need it in currency form to benefit from it, I can have a checking account and those numbers are very real, if I choose to I can pull it out in currency form, I can even trade those numbers for a cow, or a piece of gold, it doesn't matter, all it is is a unit of account.
Money really truly is just an idea. It is the value of our work on this planet. Placed into a form that is countable and divisible so that we don't have to try to barter for everything or carry around heavy object for trade, it was the most efficient thing they had for the last few hundred years, and it has worked very well. But since we can now have technology track what the amounts are, we don't need to rely on paper or objects as much as we did in the past.
When I work, I am creating wealth period.
I would assume since you are a gold fan, that you would at least agree that someone working in a gold mine that pulls out a chunk of gold has at the very least created wealth.
And maybe you would see that anything that helped them to do their job more efficiently to be able to concentrate on pulling gold out of the ground is helping to increase the amount of wealth building.
So if someone is operating a truck to get food to that gold diggers neighborhood so that they can eat and not have to farm on top of digging for gold, they are helping to create wealth, on and on. And in reality any activity that someone is willing to pay for, is a wealth building enterprise, because they are providing something that someone wants and that person is willing to trade some of the value they have received from their labor in order to benefit from another person's labor. Be it them digging for gold, or them working in a call center trying to generate sales for a company.
And people do not HAVE to take out loans to service debts, and what does interest is never created mean? Do you literally mean that the interest should be calculated and the treasury should be printing money based on it? What is the point of that? We spend our cash all the time, we don't need it in currency form to benefit from it, I can have a checking account and those numbers are very real, if I choose to I can pull it out in currency form, I can even trade those numbers for a cow, or a piece of gold, it doesn't matter, all it is is a unit of account.
Money really truly is just an idea. It is the value of our work on this planet. Placed into a form that is countable and divisible so that we don't have to try to barter for everything or carry around heavy object for trade, it was the most efficient thing they had for the last few hundred years, and it has worked very well. But since we can now have technology track what the amounts are, we don't need to rely on paper or objects as much as we did in the past.
So if the government hires you to dig a hole 3 feet wide and 2 feet deep by 3 feet long and once that is done they have you fill the hole back in and you receive a paycheck for that, please explain to me what wealth was created?
when you get a mortgage(for example), by the time you have paid for 30 years you have actually paid MORE than twice the sum that the house originally cost. this is the interest. When you go get a home loan for 100K they dont give you all the money PLUS whatever interest is going to be due, no they just lend the principal, you are responsible for paying the interest, but since the system never created the interest there is no way it can be paid. Debt Slavery.
Dude believe me, its hard to wrap your brain around it and I don't have any magical words that will light the CFL in your head.
"We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar
we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous;
if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important
subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present
civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."
--Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
Every Dollar was borrowed into existence. But the Interest is NOT borrowed.
This is kinda hard to explain if you don't grasp the money creation process. Ok you know how the money destruction process works right? People pay off their loans and treasuries are sold back and that money is taken out of the system right? Eventually you will pay off the pricipal of every loan, but when you do that there will no longer be any money left with which to pay the interest.
when you get a mortgage(for example), by the time you have paid for 30 years you have actually paid MORE than twice the sum that the house originally cost. this is the interest. When you go get a home loan for 100K they dont give you all the money PLUS whatever interest is going to be due, no they just lend the principal, you are responsible for paying the interest, but since the system never created the interest there is no way it can be paid. Debt Slavery.
Dude believe me, its hard to wrap your brain around it and I don't have any magical words that will light the CFL in your head.
"We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar
we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous;
if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important
subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present
civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."
--Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
Every Dollar was borrowed into existence. But the Interest is NOT borrowed.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Yeah this example is a good one for you, this is not creating anything, and is retarded, why they did this back then was because they had no clue what they were doing and somehow thought that when the economists where telling them to put people to work, they would just waste peoples time. It was retarded, and a waste.
But if instead they were building a road, there is a ton of wealth created. Not only does it connect communities making it easier for say farmers to get their goods to market, but also workers able to get to a wider array of jobs, which helps to create a more diverse workforce and that is a big wealth builder.
You are going off of the belief that to pay something back you need to physically hold the currency though. That is not the case is it? I can write a check out of my checking account and pay off my home with it, which means I have wiped out that debt and never need to touch a bit of cash to do so right?
And even further, if you are paying off your account, that money is just going back to the bank and increasing their reserves again.
"Calling in a loan" is a term that the banks use to describe why this is not what you think it is. Yes we all are chasing a finite amount of dollars, but as we pay back our loans, that money is going back into the system right.
So as you pay off your loan (plus the interest) that money is freed up from the bank and they can either lend it again, the depositors can withdraw their funds, the bank can use it to increase their excess reserves and whatnot.
The currency is just being exchanged around the system. It actually flows in rates that can be calculated called the velocity of money:
The shaded areas are recessions, they are pointing out how during times of recession, the velocity of money is decreasing. This is because people are usually slowing their consumption and trying to save their money. This causes a contraction in GDP and businesses suffer, meaning they lay off people and GDP slumps further. This is another reason that they try to increase the money supply during recessions, so that people can get their hands on more money and spend it again so that businesses start to hire again, which after employment stabilizes they withdraw the money they injected into the system so that inflation doesn't get out of hand.
I am more a metal halidite bulb!
I am trying to find the full speech when and where this took place. But am now very curious.
The only thing more I can find of this is :On January 24, 1939, Robert H. Hemphill, credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta stated: a date.
Which is during the great depression. And we both know that I am not one to jump to believe quotes from this time, as many of these people did not have a clue about how the monetary system actually worked. And it showed as they were throwing everything at the wall and trying to find something that would stick. Like the idiotic practice of digging a hole and filling it back up as some kind of government spending.
I can agree with this, but I would add that every dollar of interest paid back was simply the forfeiture of wages the person had agreed to in order to get the loan in the first place. It is not going to stop the ability to pay it back though since you don't actually need the currency for more than a few moments if you were determined to pay back the loan in cash. Otherwise you would not even need it.
sigh, If money is borrowed into existence then it was "Created" from nothing.
money destruction. Didn't they cover this in Macro? Or did they forget that part?
http://books.google.com/books?id=A-cS74iX0UYC&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=how+money+destruction+process+works&source=bl&ots=20VR5xzzI4&sig=x1wLq8kwNMafvQxUeQPolG69y_w&hl=en&ei=rL0aTJaQMo_sNIj3ydAF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=how%20money%20destruction%20process%20works&f=false
When you pay your loan off only the interest is left, the principal pays the liability on the banks Balance sheet. Loans are liabilities to a bank. Debt can only be paid or discharged it doesn't exist after it is paid. All US dollars are debt, they represent NOTHING becasue they are backed by nothing, only by official decree are they accepted as payment. If you are a business and refuse to accept dollars, the law will throw you in jail. Thats the only reason we use dollars, otherwise most people would prefer a commodity of some kind, of which gold and silver are the best and so much better than paper becasue they are fungible, durable and have intrinsic value, of which paper does not. paper only weighs less and is therefore easier to carry. Thats pretty much the only reason why someone would want to carry paper. And paper works as long as it is able to be exchanged for something with intrinsic value to everyone.
Han are you under the assumption that the US Dollar is backed by gold in Fort Knox?
money destruction. Didn't they cover this in Macro? Or did they forget that part?
http://books.google.com/books?id=A-cS74iX0UYC&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=how+money+destruction+process+works&source=bl&ots=20VR5xzzI4&sig=x1wLq8kwNMafvQxUeQPolG69y_w&hl=en&ei=rL0aTJaQMo_sNIj3ydAF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=how%20money%20destruction%20process%20works&f=false
When you pay your loan off only the interest is left, the principal pays the liability on the banks Balance sheet. Loans are liabilities to a bank. Debt can only be paid or discharged it doesn't exist after it is paid. All US dollars are debt, they represent NOTHING becasue they are backed by nothing, only by official decree are they accepted as payment. If you are a business and refuse to accept dollars, the law will throw you in jail. Thats the only reason we use dollars, otherwise most people would prefer a commodity of some kind, of which gold and silver are the best and so much better than paper becasue they are fungible, durable and have intrinsic value, of which paper does not. paper only weighs less and is therefore easier to carry. Thats pretty much the only reason why someone would want to carry paper. And paper works as long as it is able to be exchanged for something with intrinsic value to everyone.
Han are you under the assumption that the US Dollar is backed by gold in Fort Knox?
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I can direct you to a post a few days ago I had made that talked about open market operations where the Fed sells treasuries they have if you wish.
That money was not 'created' from nothing. It is a portion of the unused reserves the banks are holding.
Did you even bother to read this?
Nothing is left, you had paid it off right, interest and all, if I pay a car loan off for example, and if I kept my own balance sheet, I would no longer have that loan payable on it right? It is done.
Asset, deposits are the liability.
Right.
Actually this is not always the case, like fast food places not taking 100 dollar bills, or Apple not taking cash for the ipads due to theft. But they are more than willing to take the electronic equivalent.
Like pretty much anything we wish to buy, which is why almost everyone would choose to carry cash over metal bits.
God no, it is just a unit of measure, our time is what is actually worth the money we get in wages.
Really I think of money more as a concept, not something that has to be one certain thing for all eternity. It is just a way to put a pricetag on everything from a hour of work to a stick of gum.
And your price tag keeps increasing, in 10 years how much do you think a candy bar will cost? Did you know that 40 years ago you could buy them for 5 cents? How much do they cost today? Can you walk into any convenience store and get a Hershey bar for a nickle? Why not?
Why does the average person make less than he did in 1970? ( After adjusting for real inflation)
Do you believe the economy is recovering? Do you think we already hit bottom? Did the stimulus help you or anyone you personally know?
If you price everything in gold it reveals many things about the economy.
If gold isn't money then why do they mine for it?
If time is what we are really dealing in, then can you give me 20 years please? Why can't you give me your time? What would facilitate you giving me your time?
Adjusted for inflation why is the market at the same place it was 10 years ago?
Actually it is the case 100% of the time too, McDonald's cannot say that it will only accept silver or gold as a payment, EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS/ENTITY in the USA MUST accept Dollars as money. It matters not in what form. Apple cannot sell its iPad in the US and demand they get paid in Yuan instead of dollars. You get it?
If you order $99.50 of food at McDonalds are you telling me they won't take a hundred dollar bill for payment?