Recession over?

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
What do you guys think - when economists look back in hindsight, will they discover that the recession officially ended right about now? We've had 4 months of housing growth (with record growth last month), months of economic growth, and the market almost hit a volume of 10,000 three weeks ago. I'm not looking for a critique of the methods and/or means that allowed for this recovery. I'm just wondering what you guys think. Is the recession over?

NB - remember, they have clear criteria for defining a recession, so let's base our answers on those criteria (real personal income, real business sales, industrial production and employment).

And please, no flaming. Let's keep it civil.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Let's remember that the official rules for defining a recession, 3 consecutive quarters on negative growth, were thrown out the window when Bush was in office. Then the media was howling and calling it a depression when we had not yet had one quarter of negative growth. Now we are still deeply negative, still losing a half million jobs a month, and the same people want to declare a recovery.

The recession should be winding down, historically most recessions are no longer than this. They are prolonged by government intervention which is what is happening here. Our time in recession will end up being twice as long as it needed to be because of this administration. The real danger which many predicted last winter was that just when the economy began to recover (on its own) the inflation from all the deficit spending will hit and drive it back down.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
The stock market is not an indication of the economy, the stock market is a Casino.
The odds have always treated me better in the market, that's for sure. But if the market is thriving, it's usually an indicator of positive growth in the economy.
 
I think if you define a recession as three quarters of negitive growth than yes it is. However, I think the recession may have been slowned down for a bit due to the stimulus package but after that money runs out North American cI'mpanies will find that they have fallen far behind technologically and their profits will fall drastically as industries advance else where. I believe we are head for a depression that will take a long time to recover from stemming from our technological infurioity and overal lack of scientific education.
 

KaleoXxX

Well-Known Member
even if the recession is ending, i think we still have more shitty times ahead of our selves
 

Mr.Therapy Man

Well-Known Member
Are you kidding?I live in the south and theres not a new house under constrution nowhere plus thier raising my electric rates again for the second time in one year.TVA fucked up and had a big spill at the Kingston plant and we get an electric hike.Thats fucked up.(Out of a recession my ass)
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The odds have always treated me better in the market, that's for sure. But if the market is thriving, it's usually an indicator of positive growth in the economy.
Your right, it usually is, but this time its just all the tax payer money from the bail outs being forced to market so that the big banks can once again make a huge profit. Until the first month that they have good proof that 100's of thousands of jobs were created then I say its not over.

The Fed will Monetize $205 Billion of debt this next week when they buy treasuries. As long as the fed is turning the Bonds into debt the recession/depression is not over IMO.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
Instead of asking if the recession is over, what we should really be asking is, what has changed? What has given us our new lease on life?

Trillions in stimulus and bailout money may have helped in the short-run, but we are only trading short-term gain for long-term pain.

In reality, we have only made the speculative imbalances that lead to the housing bubble worse. We are only setting ourselves up for something much worse. If things do get better, and it appears they might(on the surface that is), it is only because we are in the eye of the storm.

The underlying fundamental problems with our economy still exist, and much of what the government is doing is making them worse. Basically, easy credit is what caused the housing bubble, and the dot com bubble before it. Artificial booms are inevitably followed by recession, in short, recessions correct the problems that caused the artificial boom. Interest rates were artificially low, and speculative imbalances caused home prices to soar beyond any value actually grounded in reality...so instead of letting interest rates rise, and letting the price of these over-valued homes drop, creating an equilibrium grounded in reality...the government's solution is to lower interest rates and prop up home prices. Sort of like those brilliant people who think you can cure a hangover by drinking alcohol.

Any attempt to resist letting the recession happen only furthers the speculative imbalances and malinvestment that lead to recession. Like with the dot com bubble, Greenspan responded by lowering interest rates, which flooded the economy with easy credit...which in turn lead to the the imbalances which caused the housing bubble.

Similar to the recssion after WWI, the Fed responded by flooding the economy with credit...which is of course is why it was 'the roaring twenties', but it also lead to the great depression. To quote Mr. Greenspan himself:
When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction
. . . the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of
forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. The “Fed” succeeded;
. . . but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in
the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the
economy spilled over into the stock market—triggering a fantastic
speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted
to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in
breaking the boom. But it was too late: . . . the speculative imbalances
had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated
a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business
confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed.
The
Besides sending these false signals to the economy, everything the Obama administration is doing is counter productive. Cap and trade, just adds burdensome tax and regulation, making everything more expensive...the overhaul of health care, should it pass, will only add to a growing budget deficit, which the the WH predicts will be $9 Trillion over the next decade. Creating liquidity('printing money') taxes an overburdened citizenry through inflation.

And then there are the fundamental problems with the economy that have been building for decades now. Foreign investors buying trillions in US debt for decades now has made us practically immune to normal market pressures...We have a negative savings rate, yet we are the largest consumers in the world. This lack of market pressure has allowed our economy to drastically change over the past few decades...At the peak of US economic power, we flooded the world with cheap manufactured goods, yet still paid the highest wages in the world, and we were the worlds largest creditor...now our economy has made a drastic shift to a mostly service based economy, which produces little exportable goods. The result is, we have become dependent on foreign manufactured goods, and run a trade deficit to the tune of a $1 trillion a year. We cannot continue to borrow and spend forever, and when we are cut off...our economy faces painful restructuring.

In short, with a public debt of over 11 trillion dollars, a figure closer to 60 trillion(or as high as 100 trillion depending on the source) if you include unfunded liabilities, a $9 trillion budget deficit over the next decade, a $1 trillion annual trade deficit, a negative saving rate, and ballooning credit card debt...it is becoming increasingly more evident that the US economy is in very big trouble. And no matter how much the government tries to outsmart the market, they just can't do it...and once it all comes crashing down,our perverse interpretation of Keynesian economics will be exposed for the sham it is.

As to whether or not the rescession is over...the answer is...we never let it happen, and that's the problem.
 

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
It appears Obama has turned the economy from a near depression to ending a recession in 6 months. If that turns out to be the case he will be looked on upon from future generations as an economic genius.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
The odds have always treated me better in the market, that's for sure. But if the market is thriving, it's usually an indicator of positive growth in the economy.
NoDrama is right, Stock market movements are not predictive of economic conditions. According to the gov't the recession started in december 2007, 2 months earlier the Dow and S&P 500 had hit record highs. Throughout 2008, even as the economy was contracting, many stock market strategists thought the recession could be avoided.
 

GanjaAL

Active Member
I mark the end of the recession when people start getting jobs back, money in their pocket and fucking gas prices go down. Until then fuck congress! Term limit those self serving bitches!
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
I mark the end of the recession when people start getting jobs back, money in their pocket and fucking gas prices go down. Until then fuck congress! Term limit those self serving bitches!
Is gas that high right now? I locked in my winter rate already and it's CHEAP where I live.

And the job market is improving. It will get better every day.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Instead of asking if the recession is over, what we should really be asking is, what has changed? What has given us our new lease on life?

Trillions in stimulus and bailout money may have helped in the short-run, but we are only trading short-term gain for long-term pain.

In reality, we have only made the speculative imbalances that lead to the housing bubble worse. We are only setting ourselves up for something much worse. If things do get better, and it appears they might(on the surface that is), it is only because we are in the eye of the storm.

The underlying fundamental problems with our economy still exist, and much of what the government is doing is making them worse. Basically, easy credit is what caused the housing bubble, and the dot com bubble before it. Artificial booms are inevitably followed by recession, in short, recessions correct the problems that caused the artificial boom. Interest rates were artificially low, and speculative imbalances caused home prices to soar beyond any value actually grounded in reality...so instead of letting interest rates rise, and letting the price of these over-valued homes drop, creating an equilibrium grounded in reality...the government's solution is to lower interest rates and prop up home prices. Sort of like those brilliant people who think you can cure a hangover by drinking alcohol.

Any attempt to resist letting the recession happen only furthers the speculative imbalances and malinvestment that lead to recession. Like with the dot com bubble, Greenspan responded by lowering interest rates, which flooded the economy with easy credit...which in turn lead to the the imbalances which caused the housing bubble.

Similar to the recssion after WWI, the Fed responded by flooding the economy with credit...which is of course is why it was 'the roaring twenties', but it also lead to the great depression. To quote Mr. Greenspan himself:


Besides sending these false signals to the economy, everything the Obama administration is doing is counter productive. Cap and trade, just adds burdensome tax and regulation, making everything more expensive...the overhaul of health care, should it pass, will only add to a growing budget deficit, which the the WH predicts will be $9 Trillion over the next decade. Creating liquidity('printing money') taxes an overburdened citizenry through inflation.

And then there are the fundamental problems with the economy that have been building for decades now. Foreign investors buying trillions in US debt for decades now has made us practically immune to normal market pressures...We have a negative savings rate, yet we are the largest consumers in the world. This lack of market pressure has allowed our economy to drastically change over the past few decades...At the peak of US economic power, we flooded the world with cheap manufactured goods, yet still paid the highest wages in the world, and we were the worlds largest creditor...now our economy has made a drastic shift to a mostly service based economy, which produces little exportable goods. The result is, we have become dependent on foreign manufactured goods, and run a trade deficit to the tune of a $1 trillion a year. We cannot continue to borrow and spend forever, and when we are cut off...our economy faces painful restructuring.

In short, with a public debt of over 11 trillion dollars, a figure closer to 60 trillion(or as high as 100 trillion depending on the source) if you include unfunded liabilities, a $9 trillion budget deficit over the next decade, a $1 trillion annual trade deficit, a negative saving rate, and ballooning credit card debt...it is becoming increasingly more evident that the US economy is in very big trouble. And no matter how much the government tries to outsmart the market, they just can't do it...and once it all comes crashing down,our perverse interpretation of Keynesian economics will be exposed for the sham it is.

As to whether or not the rescession is over...the answer is...we never let it happen, and that's the problem.
You bring up some very good points.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
It appears Obama has turned the economy from a near depression to ending a recession in 6 months. If that turns out to be the case he will be looked on upon from future generations as an economic genius.
Yes he's almost godlike isn't he?
Figured out how to spend his way out of being broke.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Like forest fires, recessions happen and they end. Invariably government actions prolong recessions and also invariably those same governments claim credit when recessions finally end in spite of their meddling.
 

klmmicro

Well-Known Member
Ain't over yet. Still going down in my area. Saving a bunch of government jobs has not done much to bring back the small businesses that disappeared over the last few years. I do not look forward to the other shoe, inflation and high interest rates. The government causes the problem, then we are supposed to laud them their genius for "fixing the problem". F 'em, it is the people that will fix it...not a bunch of corrupt lawyers.
 

poopmaster

Well-Known Member
The ship is sinking and the media are on deck playing the musical instruments trying to keep everyone calm.
 
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