Religion Has Done More Bad Than Good

styxxoo1 said:

Worse thing EVER thought up... nothing against belief.. believe whatever the hell you want... that's the point of freedom...
But when large groups of people come together and try to enforce this belief on others..... then religion is born and wars break out..

The thing is that most mainstream beliefs are rather selfish... in a "non-believers go to hell" kinda way...
Thus having these fanatics develop a hero complex and whist trying to save "souls" tend to do nothing but cause annoyance and conflict...

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Preach it, brother! Reps from me.

So, if I can find something about the Christian religion that isn't a lie, then will you be willing to reconsider your position? It sounds like your opinion is based solely on this statement. To be so all encompassing in your understanding of Christianity and what is the lie, you have to know a lot of stuff.

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All lies, all good lies have truth mixed up with them. Finding a truth in a religion doesn't make that religion correct by concept.

Take it. It's yours. Always was, always will be. Who is stopping you from learning from the Old Testament? The Christians? Bull shit! They have nothing to do with your life if you don't want them to. Or, have you personally been forced out of your home and persecuted for what you chose to read and believe? I didn't think so.

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It's not mine. I'm not Jewish.

It doesn't belong to Christians however. It is central to the lie however, in working to break the covenant with G*D.

Then why did they wander in the desert for 40 years instead of being guided directly to the promised land? I have a bible at home. I'm willing to dust it off if you have an old testament reference supporting this.

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I make no claims that the Old Testament is the word of G*D. I'm an atheist... Never the less it doesn't change the events of the Christian church maneuvering to cop the Jewish religion.

Never and impossible? Did they become super human and incapable if sinning? I know the Jews are God's chosen people. But, they've stopped the sacrifices. I see no direction from God to stop making sacrifices.

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That's what the Old testament says.... yes. Look for yourself. You argue but haven't read the material ur debating????

Makes me sad to think that God won't love me because of my race.

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That's because it wasn't meant for you. their G*D, not Christians or Buddhists. Kind of my point.

There is no way to substantiate these claims. But, if God never intended it to happen, then why would he let the Christians lie so effectively that it co-opted the Jews from performing their ritual sacrifices?

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Again, I'm an atheist. You suppose already "why would G*D let...." I presume no such guesswork.

I don't think anyone is up there guiding anything.
It's just one man based religion stealing and harassing (exterminating?) from another.

So wait people can really raise from the dead?

CrackerJax said:

I'm talking about the Old Testament. It doesn't belong to you. It's not meant for non jews. Are you jewish?

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But every human MUST be a jew if you beleive the words of the old testament, so it could not be hijacked as its everyones as we must all be jews wether you like it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but to be considered Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother, making you a Jew and that could never be changed.

If we are all decendants of Adam and Eve then doesn't that mean we were all born to a Jewish mother as we all came from the same two people in the begining.

krustofskie said:

But every human MUST be a jew if you beleive the words of the old testament, so it could not be hijacked as its everyones as we must all be jews wether you like it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but to be considered Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother, making you a Jew and that could never be changed.

If we are all decendants of Adam and Eve then doesn't that mean we were all born to a Jewish mother as we all came from the same two people in the begining.

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Adam and eve story was made to make you fear government. You see that make it seem as if we had a creater then as if he can make mistakes. They get to pick these mistakes that "god" made and ban them from the people. Because they are made by the "devil" so now you must fear these things and not do them because the "creater" (government) made a mistake even though he doesnt make mistakes so it must be the devil.

They want you to go ask them what to fear when it should be second nature. Fear a tiger because it can eat you dont fear a god that makes mistakes because in they own words he could have made a mistake.

Wow! This post turned out to be a long one. I'll try more indica before I write next time.

CrackerJax said:

All lies, all good lies have truth mixed up with them. Finding a truth in a religion doesn't make that religion correct by concept.

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Agreed. Finding a truth in something (religion, someones ideas...whatever) doesn't make anything correct or good in its self. I'm not trying to defend something I find a lot of problems with, like the church. I think the difference between our positions is I see a lot of good, also, coming from religion. You made the statement that it was all lies. The heart of which is based in rejection (despite the obvious fact that it's exploded in practice over the last 2000 years).

CrackerJax said:

It's not mine. I'm not Jewish.

It doesn't belong to Christians however. It is central to the lie however, in working to break the covenant with G*D.

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My mistake. You have so much passion on the subject, I naturally assumed you were Jewish. So, if it's all lies, and the Christians are making something out of the OT that it wasn't intended for, so what? It's just lies made from lies. In that case, it makes no real difference to anything important.

I very confused. Are you affirming that God actually made a covenant with the Jews? How can you say you are an atheist and hold that something significant happened between the Jews and God? It's a lie, dude! Why the hell do you care?

CrackerJax said:

I make no claims that the Old Testament is the word of G*D. I'm an atheist... Never the less it doesn't change the events of the Christian church maneuvering to cop the Jewish religion.

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You are making the OT the source of your argument as evidence that the Christians have perverted it to reject the Jews. I know you didn't claim to believe it was the word of God.


I'm really curious about atheism. A defined belief system that there are no belief systems worthy of faith. It seems to me the more someone rails against the lack of God's existence, the more they prove they believe He exists.

You've never heard anyone say the following statement: "That fucking bitch Tinker bell! I was totally expecting her to come through for me, and that cunt didn't help me out!" No one would say that because no one believes she really exists. My question in this is, if you are truly convinced of the lack of God's existence, than why bother saying so? If an entire world from the beginning of recorded history has recognized the presence of a God, then maybe you are the one who needs to change his mind?

CrackerJax said:

That's what the Old testament says.... yes. Look for yourself. You argue but haven't read the material ur debating????

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I told you I've been more than a casual observer all my life. Never said I didn't know the material I am discussing. I don't think I even implied that. No biggie. I may join you in a good round of "How fucked up the Christian Church is" on another thread. I'm not trying to "defend the faith". That word means too many things to everyone.

CrackerJax said:

That's because it wasn't meant for you. their G*D, not Christians or Buddhists. Kind of my point.

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Oh. I thought your point was that the Jewish God doesn't want to love me. There are many examples in the OT where wives and the servants of a household converted to the man's Jewish beleifs. And many of those people were not born in a Jewish family. I think the OT shows more than not God is pleased with anyone's, everyone's worship, not just the Jews (the stones and rocks themselves would cry out if everyone remained silent: OT somewhere). I can prove it, but I don't really want to go there.

CrackerJax said:

Again, I'm an atheist. You suppose already "why would G*D let...." I presume no such guesswork.

I don't think anyone is up there guiding anything.

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That's cool. Maybe that's why I've been enjoying the discussion.

Believing or faith not bad .the ORGANIZED churches are the problem.

Anyone seroiously interested in the overall scope of religion and societies throughout history, should look up and listen too/watch the ORIGINAL lecture series(not the later, highly edited version meant for popular tv.) of Dr.Ralph Cambell of U.C.L.A..He was probably the worlds foremost authority.An interesting fact is that he believed that the Hindus had about the best act of all religions.

I am not christian, but there is one reason I love them.
the crusades.

Could you imagine if muslims had conquered Europe?
horrible thoughts.

overgrowem said:

Believing or faith not bad .the ORGANIZED churches are the problem.

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exactly

krustofskie said:

But every human MUST be a jew if you beleive the words of the old testament, so it could not be hijacked as its everyones as we must all be jews wether you like it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but to be considered Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother, making you a Jew and that could never be changed.

If we are all decendants of Adam and Eve then doesn't that mean we were all born to a Jewish mother as we all came from the same two people in the begining.

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No, you have it exactly backwards.

The Old Testament was written BY Jews, FOR Jews.... only. Certainly not gentiles who were "outsiders" and not of the tribe.

Yes, you must have a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew (by birth, you can convert). But that is it.

No Christian can claim the Old testament as their own and be considered honest. Jesus never spoke to gentiles, only Jews. The message from Jesus was ONLY for the Jews. Of course I am simply working within the myth here. I don't believe a Jesus ever was.

CrackerJax said:

No, you have it exactly backwards.

The Old Testament was written BY Jews, FOR Jews.... only. Certainly not gentiles who were "outsiders" and not of the tribe.

Yes, you must have a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew (by birth, you can convert). But that is it.

No Christian can claim the Old testament as their own and be considered honest. Jesus never spoke to gentiles, only Jews. The message from Jesus was ONLY for the Jews. Of course I am simply working within the myth here. I don't believe a Jesus ever was.

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My point is that the Old testament, regardless of who it was written by and written for, claims we the whole human race are descendants of Adam and Eve. Do the Jews not consider Eve a Jew? if Eve is not considered a Jew by the Jewish then my point is mute but if Eve is considered a Jew then we the human race would have to be accepted as being direct descendants of Eve Jewish, thus we can not hijack the Old testament because we must all be Jewish wether we like it or not.

Adam & Eve? Ur joking of course. Someone better tell the Palestinians that they are Jews then....

You can try all you like to twist it, but the fact remains the Old Testament was written for the tribe of Israel and no one else. They don't consider themselves to be the spawn point for all mankind.

CrackerJax said:

Adam & Eve? Ur joking of course. Someone better tell the Palestinians that they are Jews then....

You can try all you like to twist it, but the fact remains the Old Testament was written for the tribe of Israel and no one else. They don't consider themselves to be the spawn point for all mankind.

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So the old testament doesn't claim Adam and Eve are the start of human kind then? Its not my belief its just what I see to be the biggest contradiction to the Jewish faith as they would have to except all human kind into their ilk. Its not me twisting anything its what the old testament claims. If you can tell me that the Jewish book of faith the 'Tanakh' or what Christians call the old testament does not say that human kind originated from Adam and Eve then I am wrong. We could even bring in the story of Noah and his family, another big story from the old testament, if all life on the planets surface, except Noah and his family, including the animals 2x2, were killed by a great planet wide flood, then we would all be direct descendants of Noah, thus meaning we must all be Jews, again a contradiction if we can not consider all humans Jewish.

Okay, let's simplify it for both of us.

Riddle me this batman....

What is the big lesson of Adam & Eve? Would you agree that it is... Original sin?

Partly. Thats not the whole story but yes thats surely part of it.

I mean it's the main part of it. It's why we die, and why there must be death. because adam & eve committed the original sin.


But there's a big problem.

The Jews DO NOT believe in original sin. Only the Christians do. But the Jews wrote it. It's theirs.

So, not only have the Christians hijacked the Old Testament, they have changed it's meanings to fit their own.

That's a clear TIP OFF that it's not yours.

My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend.

I thought the main part of it was to explain the creation of man which is much bigger than the sin part. Still your just pointing out another contradiction. I do know where your coming from and you are right, in literal terms, the Old testament was 'stolen from the Jews'. But then the Old testament was put together in its original form by the Jews from other old wives tales etc etc, just as the bible is a collection of bullshit stories. But my original point still stands that Jews can not say that the old testament was hijacked if they believe in Adam and Eve being the start of human kind and they do contradict themselves by singling themselves out by saying others are not Jews because, according to the book of their faith, we ALL originated from Adam and Eve and there for must be of Jewish descent.