This is a repost of my post from the WWIII thread. It was made in reply to Smuggler but I figure it has enough content to start it's own thread. I'm sure this thread can spread out to the Middle East (e.g. al Qaeda, Afghanistan and the Mujahadeen, Zbigniew Brzezinski, other examples of blowback or other horrible secret operations like Operation Northwood, Operation AJAX, Operation Rex84, Operation Garden Plot, etc.
Anyway, enjoy and discuss! Hopefully we can keep the bullshit name calling and personal attacks out of this one. I've yet to encounter a thread in the Politics section without low-brow entertainment, personal attacks, hearsay.
*I guess if it's too long (since most of the users here keep telling me my posts are long, but I don't understand how you can have a debate on such big topics with nothing but hearsay and name calling) you guys can pick out certain parts of my post that interest you or that you think are wrong and we can start a debate that way.
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[FONT=굴]i dont know why i even bother with posts like this, just like uncle bucks posts in the global warming thread..but meh, it's wednesday and the markets quiet. btw, Smuggler, reply to my other post also - the one on osama, al qaeda, iraq and the US funding iranian light water reactors (nuclear facilities).[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]First of all, my name is not Babar. Second, I'm not Iranian.
You seem to completely ignore or are unaware of any wrong-doing on the part of Western civilization. Even if we ignore the Anglo-Saxon world, the United States is high up on the ladder of violation of human rights and terrorism.
When I said minor, I clearly stated I was not referring to the degree of severity but the number of occurrences. I stated that because I knew you would turn it into a game of semantics. The number of occurrences of what you speak of is minuscule compared to the crimes of the United States. You have an extremely egocentric point of view, where cultures that are different from your own make a legitimate enough reason to destroy it. It's even worse considering that you have a misunderstanding of Islamic culture. You don't have to continue perpetuating the status quo of Islamic tradition; we've all read the news and seen the pictures.
Stop addressing me. I'm not Muslim, I'm not Iranian and I do not fully support the Iranian government. I am a proud, freedom-loving, constitutionalist American.
And you? You believe that you're righteous and that you are just in killing?[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]The US funding terrorism in foreign countries in order to sabotage and destabilize governments that do not tow the party line has been an old trick in the book. Guess where the first time it was used (according to the CIA)? Iran in 1953.
There are a handful of terrorist groups that are funded and protected by the US, UK and Israel. MKO, MEK, PJAK, Jundallah, the list goes on. [note: MKO will be mentioned later in the post]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]America[/FONT][FONT=굴] is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme.[/FONT]
Anyway, enjoy and discuss! Hopefully we can keep the bullshit name calling and personal attacks out of this one. I've yet to encounter a thread in the Politics section without low-brow entertainment, personal attacks, hearsay.
*I guess if it's too long (since most of the users here keep telling me my posts are long, but I don't understand how you can have a debate on such big topics with nothing but hearsay and name calling) you guys can pick out certain parts of my post that interest you or that you think are wrong and we can start a debate that way.
-------------------
[FONT=굴]i dont know why i even bother with posts like this, just like uncle bucks posts in the global warming thread..but meh, it's wednesday and the markets quiet. btw, Smuggler, reply to my other post also - the one on osama, al qaeda, iraq and the US funding iranian light water reactors (nuclear facilities).[/FONT]
Originally Posted by Smuggler
[FONT="]Good try Babar lets skip over the facts and be vague about what your own people are doing in a dishonest attempt to justify your peoples immoral and murderous attitude towards innocent people of both cultures. Not to mention the hate and totalitarian despise for the Western attempts to bring your society out of the fricking STONE AGE. Minor things yeah right unless you are the family of the victims. Minor unless you see your child die in your arms. Yeah, youre the righteous You kill because you are just in Killing right???
[/FONT][FONT="]First of all, my name is not Babar. Second, I'm not Iranian.
You seem to completely ignore or are unaware of any wrong-doing on the part of Western civilization. Even if we ignore the Anglo-Saxon world, the United States is high up on the ladder of violation of human rights and terrorism.
When I said minor, I clearly stated I was not referring to the degree of severity but the number of occurrences. I stated that because I knew you would turn it into a game of semantics. The number of occurrences of what you speak of is minuscule compared to the crimes of the United States. You have an extremely egocentric point of view, where cultures that are different from your own make a legitimate enough reason to destroy it. It's even worse considering that you have a misunderstanding of Islamic culture. You don't have to continue perpetuating the status quo of Islamic tradition; we've all read the news and seen the pictures.
Stop addressing me. I'm not Muslim, I'm not Iranian and I do not fully support the Iranian government. I am a proud, freedom-loving, constitutionalist American.
And you? You believe that you're righteous and that you are just in killing?[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]The US funding terrorism in foreign countries in order to sabotage and destabilize governments that do not tow the party line has been an old trick in the book. Guess where the first time it was used (according to the CIA)? Iran in 1953.
There are a handful of terrorist groups that are funded and protected by the US, UK and Israel. MKO, MEK, PJAK, Jundallah, the list goes on. [note: MKO will be mentioned later in the post]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]America[/FONT][FONT=굴] is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]In a move that reflects Washington's growing concern with the failure of diplomatic initiatives, CIA officials are understood to be helping opposition militias among the numerous ethnic minority groups clustered in Iran's border regions.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]The operations are controversial because they involve dealing with movements that resort to terrorist methods in pursuit of their grievances against the Iranian regime.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Funding for their separatist causes comes directly from the CIA's classified budget but is now "no great secret", according to one former high-ranking CIA official in Washington who spoke anonymously to The Sunday Telegraph.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]His claims were backed by Fred Burton, a former US state department counter-terrorism agent, who said: "The latest attacks inside Iran fall in line with US efforts to supply and train Iran's ethnic minorities to destabilise the Iranian regime."[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]
Original article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-in-Iran.html
[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]It is noteworthy that three years ago, U.S. intelligence circles suggested re-arming MEK and using it to destabilize Iran, a recommendation that has apparently readily been implemented. The undertaking of this plan makes the U.S. government complicit in the terrorist acts that have been carried out inside Iran. The New York Times recently revealed that the camp operates under the protection of the U.S. military and American troops chauffer MEK operatives.
Another organization that carries out cross-border attacks on Iranian villages is the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK), which is supported with equipment and training by Israeli Special Forces. This group receives its lists of targets inside Iran from U.S. intelligence services.
A third terrorist organization that operates on the border between Sistan-Baluchistan province of Iran and the countries of Pakistan on the south and Afghanistan on the north is called Jundallah (Gods Brigade), an extremist Sunni tribal faction. This group has been launching armed attacks on the civilian population, planting bombs and kidnapping passengers. The group has its bases in Pakistan and apparently is funded, trained and armed by the U.S. and British armies in Afghanistan and in the Iran-Pakistan border regions.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
Original article:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...9e9ae16d5fda5d
[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]You are gravely mistaken and being took for a ride.
The CIA's overthrow of the elected Iranian Mossadegh government in 1953 was documented by the CIA. This report was written by the coup's chief planners, it details what went on and the role of the CIA. Here are some summary points made by the New York Times after uploading the CIA file for people to read (obviously with a lot of redacted content):[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]Ahmadinejad won with 62.6% of the vote, similar to how he won in 2005 with 61.69% of the vote. The Western media portrays Ahmadinejad as a leader with absolutely no backing, but contrary to this smear campaign, Ahmadinejad has a lot of backing in Iran - a populist politician. There was an 85% vote turnout and an 11 million vote difference. You can rig 500,000, maybe even a million - how do you rig 11 million votes with an 85% vote turnout? Even the United States can't do that well in vote rigging.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
While Western news reports from Tehran in the days leading up to the voting portrayed an Iranian public enthusiastic about Ahmadinejad's principal opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, our scientific sampling from across all 30 of Iran's provinces showed Ahmadinejad well ahead.
[/FONT][FONT="]
Original article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061401757.html
The Western "experts" on Iran have all jumped to conclusion while providing no evidence whatsoever that the elections were a fraud and that everything was manipulated. Please show me the evidence that Ahmadinejad did NOT win the election and the vote was a complete fraud. There is no evidence - similar to the propaganda tactics in Venezuela, even though Venezuela has one of the best voting systems in the world (better than the US). If the elections can be so easily manipulated in Iran, how did Mohammed Khatami get the surprise presidential win at the 1997 election?
What is the reason that Western "experts" on Iran claim election fraud? Because Mousavi speaks fluent Azeri but still lost the votes in Azeri-majority provinces? Ahmadinejad also speaks fluent Azeri and served as a popular and successful official in two Azeri provinces for 8 years. How does this reflect election fraud at all? Have you read any of the papers on why the West believes there was an election fraud? There is absolutely no empirical evidence in them, only hearsay.
The polls leading up to the election also showed that Ahmadinejad was favored to win and the national debates proved Ahmadinejad to be a winner (especially his debate with Mousavi). Before you, again, claim that anything coming out of Iran is a fraud, look at the results of this poll conducted out of Washington D.C. by Western institutions and funded by the West:
[/FONT][FONT=굴]But shortly before the election, Terror Free Tomorrow and the New America Foundation published a poll that was financed by the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation. Based on this poll, the official result - a victory for Ahmadinejad in the first round - was entirely predictable. "Ahmadinejad Front Runner in Upcoming Presidential Elections," the poll reported.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
Link to original article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_215423.html
Link to original document on results of the poll:
http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/up...ort%200609.pdf
[/FONT][FONT="]Mousavi was the head of a campaign against US soldiers in Beirut, Lebanon in the 1980's (hence the name Butcher of Beirut). Hundreds of American lives were taken in his hands through acts of terrorism:
[/FONT][FONT=굴]The first Navy woman to die to a terrorist attack was at the hands of Mousavi the "Butcher of Beirut." In April 1988, a truck bombing in front of a USO building in Naples, Italy killed five people:
Lyons, sometimes called the father of the Navy SEALs Red Cell counter-terror unit, also fingered Mousavi for the 1988 truck bombing of the U.S. Navys Fleet Center in Naples, Italy, that killed five persons, including the first Navy woman to die in a terrorist attack. [/FONT][FONT=굴]
Article from 1988:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-158426122.html
Mir Hossein Mousavi was the Prime Minister of Iran during 1981 to 1989. Did you forget the deaths of American marines in Lebanon already? Two suicide terrorist attacks in Lebanon against US civilians, contractors and marines. One at the American embassy taking 60 lives, the other at the American marines barracks killing 299 American servicemen.
Mousavi, prime minister for most of the 1980s, personally selected his point man for the Beirut terror campaign, Ali Akbar Mohtashemi-pur, and dispatched him to Damascus as Iran's ambassador, according to former CIA and military officials.
The ambassador in turn hosted several meetings of the cell that would carry out the Beirut attacks, which were overheard by the National Security Agency.
We had a tap on the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, retired Navy Admiral James Ace Lyons related by telephone Monday. In 1983 Lyons was deputy chief of Naval Operations, and deeply involved in the events in Lebanon. [/FONT]
Original article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-in-Iran.html
[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]It is noteworthy that three years ago, U.S. intelligence circles suggested re-arming MEK and using it to destabilize Iran, a recommendation that has apparently readily been implemented. The undertaking of this plan makes the U.S. government complicit in the terrorist acts that have been carried out inside Iran. The New York Times recently revealed that the camp operates under the protection of the U.S. military and American troops chauffer MEK operatives.
Another organization that carries out cross-border attacks on Iranian villages is the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK), which is supported with equipment and training by Israeli Special Forces. This group receives its lists of targets inside Iran from U.S. intelligence services.
A third terrorist organization that operates on the border between Sistan-Baluchistan province of Iran and the countries of Pakistan on the south and Afghanistan on the north is called Jundallah (Gods Brigade), an extremist Sunni tribal faction. This group has been launching armed attacks on the civilian population, planting bombs and kidnapping passengers. The group has its bases in Pakistan and apparently is funded, trained and armed by the U.S. and British armies in Afghanistan and in the Iran-Pakistan border regions.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
Original article:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...9e9ae16d5fda5d
[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]You are gravely mistaken and being took for a ride.
The CIA's overthrow of the elected Iranian Mossadegh government in 1953 was documented by the CIA. This report was written by the coup's chief planners, it details what went on and the role of the CIA. Here are some summary points made by the New York Times after uploading the CIA file for people to read (obviously with a lot of redacted content):[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]# Britain, fearful of Iran's plans to nationalise its oil industry, came up with the idea for the coup in 1952 and pressed the United States to mount a joint operation to remove the prime minister.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]# The C.I.A. and S.I.S., the British intelligence service, handpicked Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi to succeed Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and covertly funneled $5 million to General Zahedi's regime two days after the coup prevailed.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]# Iranians working for the C.I.A. and posing as Communists harassed religious leaders and staged the bombing of one cleric's home in a campaign to turn the country's Islamic religious community against Mossadegh's government.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]# The shah's cowardice nearly killed the C.I.A. operation. Fearful of risking his throne, the Shah repeatedly refused to sign CIA-written royal decrees to change the government. The agency arranged for the shah's twin sister, Princess Ashraf Pahlevi, and Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the father of the Desert Storm commander, to act as intermediaries to try to keep him from wilting under pressure. He still fled the country just before the coup succeeded.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]
Original information from NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world...cia-index.html
Here is the PDF file to the CIA document:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world...-cia-intro.pdf[/FONT]
Original information from NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world...cia-index.html
Here is the PDF file to the CIA document:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world...-cia-intro.pdf[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]
The US staged a coup through funding and propagating terrorism and a smear campaign. They overthrew a democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh, who was a nationalist and wanted to nationalize Iranian oil so the Iranian people could flourish instead of foreign big money interests. Then they replaced Mohammed Mossadegh with a military dictator that terrorized the Iranian people with his military and secret police, the SAVAK. Thousands were killed. Why do you think there is so much tension between Iran and the United States?
This is what the CIA calls blowback. The CIA funded terrorists (who called themselves communists) to carry out terror attacks and then used them to blame it on Mossadegh to wage a war of sabotage and a smear campaign. It was called Operation AJAX:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
You really think this was never used before?
US intelligence services instigated and abetted rightwing terrorism in Italy during the 1970s, a former Italian secret service general has claimed.[/FONT]
The US staged a coup through funding and propagating terrorism and a smear campaign. They overthrew a democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh, who was a nationalist and wanted to nationalize Iranian oil so the Iranian people could flourish instead of foreign big money interests. Then they replaced Mohammed Mossadegh with a military dictator that terrorized the Iranian people with his military and secret police, the SAVAK. Thousands were killed. Why do you think there is so much tension between Iran and the United States?
This is what the CIA calls blowback. The CIA funded terrorists (who called themselves communists) to carry out terror attacks and then used them to blame it on Mossadegh to wage a war of sabotage and a smear campaign. It was called Operation AJAX:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
You really think this was never used before?
US intelligence services instigated and abetted rightwing terrorism in Italy during the 1970s, a former Italian secret service general has claimed.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]The allegation was made by General Gianadelio Maletti, a former head of military counter-intelligence, at the trial last week of rightwing extremists accused of killing 16 people in the bombing of a Milan bank in 1969 - the first time such a charge has been made in a court of law by a senior Italian intelligence figure.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]"The CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], following the directives of its government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and, for this purpose, it may have made use of rightwing terrorism," Gen Maletti told the Milan court. "I believe this is what happened in other countries as well."[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]
Original article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/mar/26/terrorism
They are referring to the "Strategy of Tension":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
"You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the State cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened.
- From a participant of this former secret program:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051130003012/http://www.isn.ethz.ch/php/documents/collection_gladio/synopsis.htm
How about Operation Northwood? Do you know what this "operation" entailed? This declassified document from the 1960's showed that American Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan to blow up American airplanes filled with innocent civilians in order to blame the terrorist act on Cuba to ignite a war (kind of sounds like 2001 but with Iraq and Afghanistan). Is this not what you call terrorism? Is this not one of the reasons you want to destroy the civilization of Iran? Following your logic, does this not qualify for a legitimate reason to destroy the American civilization?
Here is the ABC report on the subject:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
Here is the original declassified CIA document:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
Here is a short video clip of an interview with former Washington Investigative Producer on ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings:
[video=youtube;IygchZRJVXM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IygchZRJVXM[/video]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Even the former NSA director said on record:
[/FONT]"The hypocrisy is deeper than this. By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In 1978-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism- in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation."[FONT=굴]
- Former National Security Agency Director Lt. General William Odom
Link to article:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_michael__060422_nsa__director__odom_.htm
You can listen to the audio here:
http://hammernews.com/odom.ram
Here is investigative journalist, Seymour Hersh, on CNN talking about the US's covert war against Iran through funding terrorist organizations and using US Special Ops from Southern Iraq:
[/FONT][video=youtube;s7942G_x-So]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7942G_x-So[/video]
Original article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/mar/26/terrorism
They are referring to the "Strategy of Tension":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
"You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the State cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened.
- From a participant of this former secret program:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051130003012/http://www.isn.ethz.ch/php/documents/collection_gladio/synopsis.htm
How about Operation Northwood? Do you know what this "operation" entailed? This declassified document from the 1960's showed that American Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan to blow up American airplanes filled with innocent civilians in order to blame the terrorist act on Cuba to ignite a war (kind of sounds like 2001 but with Iraq and Afghanistan). Is this not what you call terrorism? Is this not one of the reasons you want to destroy the civilization of Iran? Following your logic, does this not qualify for a legitimate reason to destroy the American civilization?
Here is the ABC report on the subject:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
Here is the original declassified CIA document:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
Here is a short video clip of an interview with former Washington Investigative Producer on ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings:
[video=youtube;IygchZRJVXM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IygchZRJVXM[/video]
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Even the former NSA director said on record:
[/FONT]"The hypocrisy is deeper than this. By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In 1978-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism- in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation."[FONT=굴]
- Former National Security Agency Director Lt. General William Odom
Link to article:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_michael__060422_nsa__director__odom_.htm
You can listen to the audio here:
http://hammernews.com/odom.ram
Here is investigative journalist, Seymour Hersh, on CNN talking about the US's covert war against Iran through funding terrorist organizations and using US Special Ops from Southern Iraq:
[/FONT][video=youtube;s7942G_x-So]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7942G_x-So[/video]
[FONT=굴]Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the countrys religious leadership. The covert activities involve support of the minority Ahwazi Arab and Baluchi groups and other dissident organizations. [/FONT][FONT=굴]
Full article by Seymour Hersh:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh#ixzz13WtjMAel[/FONT]
Full article by Seymour Hersh:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh#ixzz13WtjMAel[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]Ahmadinejad won with 62.6% of the vote, similar to how he won in 2005 with 61.69% of the vote. The Western media portrays Ahmadinejad as a leader with absolutely no backing, but contrary to this smear campaign, Ahmadinejad has a lot of backing in Iran - a populist politician. There was an 85% vote turnout and an 11 million vote difference. You can rig 500,000, maybe even a million - how do you rig 11 million votes with an 85% vote turnout? Even the United States can't do that well in vote rigging.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
While Western news reports from Tehran in the days leading up to the voting portrayed an Iranian public enthusiastic about Ahmadinejad's principal opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, our scientific sampling from across all 30 of Iran's provinces showed Ahmadinejad well ahead.
[/FONT][FONT="]
Original article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061401757.html
The Western "experts" on Iran have all jumped to conclusion while providing no evidence whatsoever that the elections were a fraud and that everything was manipulated. Please show me the evidence that Ahmadinejad did NOT win the election and the vote was a complete fraud. There is no evidence - similar to the propaganda tactics in Venezuela, even though Venezuela has one of the best voting systems in the world (better than the US). If the elections can be so easily manipulated in Iran, how did Mohammed Khatami get the surprise presidential win at the 1997 election?
What is the reason that Western "experts" on Iran claim election fraud? Because Mousavi speaks fluent Azeri but still lost the votes in Azeri-majority provinces? Ahmadinejad also speaks fluent Azeri and served as a popular and successful official in two Azeri provinces for 8 years. How does this reflect election fraud at all? Have you read any of the papers on why the West believes there was an election fraud? There is absolutely no empirical evidence in them, only hearsay.
The polls leading up to the election also showed that Ahmadinejad was favored to win and the national debates proved Ahmadinejad to be a winner (especially his debate with Mousavi). Before you, again, claim that anything coming out of Iran is a fraud, look at the results of this poll conducted out of Washington D.C. by Western institutions and funded by the West:
[/FONT][FONT=굴]But shortly before the election, Terror Free Tomorrow and the New America Foundation published a poll that was financed by the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation. Based on this poll, the official result - a victory for Ahmadinejad in the first round - was entirely predictable. "Ahmadinejad Front Runner in Upcoming Presidential Elections," the poll reported.[/FONT][FONT=굴]
Link to original article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_215423.html
Link to original document on results of the poll:
http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/up...ort%200609.pdf
[/FONT][FONT="]Mousavi was the head of a campaign against US soldiers in Beirut, Lebanon in the 1980's (hence the name Butcher of Beirut). Hundreds of American lives were taken in his hands through acts of terrorism:
[/FONT][FONT=굴]The first Navy woman to die to a terrorist attack was at the hands of Mousavi the "Butcher of Beirut." In April 1988, a truck bombing in front of a USO building in Naples, Italy killed five people:
Lyons, sometimes called the father of the Navy SEALs Red Cell counter-terror unit, also fingered Mousavi for the 1988 truck bombing of the U.S. Navys Fleet Center in Naples, Italy, that killed five persons, including the first Navy woman to die in a terrorist attack. [/FONT][FONT=굴]
Article from 1988:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-158426122.html
Mir Hossein Mousavi was the Prime Minister of Iran during 1981 to 1989. Did you forget the deaths of American marines in Lebanon already? Two suicide terrorist attacks in Lebanon against US civilians, contractors and marines. One at the American embassy taking 60 lives, the other at the American marines barracks killing 299 American servicemen.
Mousavi, prime minister for most of the 1980s, personally selected his point man for the Beirut terror campaign, Ali Akbar Mohtashemi-pur, and dispatched him to Damascus as Iran's ambassador, according to former CIA and military officials.
The ambassador in turn hosted several meetings of the cell that would carry out the Beirut attacks, which were overheard by the National Security Agency.
We had a tap on the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, retired Navy Admiral James Ace Lyons related by telephone Monday. In 1983 Lyons was deputy chief of Naval Operations, and deeply involved in the events in Lebanon. [/FONT]
[FONT=굴]The Iranian ambassador received instructions from the foreign minister to have various groups target U.S. personnel in Lebanon, but in particular to carry out a spectacular action against the Marines, said Lyons.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]
The NSA and CIA were listening in on this and Admiral Lyons goes on to say that he could have stopped it all but was outmaneuvered by higher ranking officials in Reagan's cabinet:
Retired Adm. Lyons maintained that he could have destroyed the terrorists at a hideout U.S. intelligence had pinpointed, but he was outmaneuvered by others in the cabinet of President Ronald Reagan.
"I was going to take them apart," Lyons said, "but the secretary of defense," Caspar Weinberger, "sabotaged it."
And also:
As the highest official in Iran in 1980s, Mir Hossein Mousavi was not only directly connected to the assassination of American citizens, but is also believed to have actually handpicked the men who later were held responsible for these attacks. The sources who state this arent his Iranian opponents, but Americans. The most notable are former CIA operative Robert Perry and the chief naval officer at the time Admiral James Lyons. Both men were privy to a lot of information, given their jobs.
Quoted from:
http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-06-24/Ha...forgotten.html
[/FONT][FONT="]http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/...n-iranian.html
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]The tactics of the "Green Revolution" are nothing new. Prior to the "Green Revolution" in Iran, the same tactics were used for:
The Rose Revolution in George with Saakashvilli.
The Orange Revolution in Ukraine with Yushchenko.
The Saffron Revolution in Myanmar which failed.
The Crimson Revolution in Tibet.
All of these color revolutions are to achieve what the CIA calls "full spectrum dominance" - that is destabilizing nations and taking over within through sabotage in order to weaken Russia and China. All of these color revolutions followed the same formulua, which is: funding the minority opposition and terrorist organizations, funding the dissident leader, covert ops within the nations borders, smear campaign via the mass media and finally, paying civilians to go out on the street to cause chaos for a news headline and the "takeover." We can start different threads on each specific revolution if you think I don't know anything about them - or we can get in depth on the Green Revolution in Iran that you believe genuinely stemmed from public dissidence.
The US has been funding the small group of dissidents in Iran for years now. Like the "revolution" in Venezuela, money was paid to civilians for going out into the streets and "taking a stand".
[/FONT][FONT=굴]
[/FONT][FONT="]"US funding terrorist group in Iran" - the US the Tondar, which is a terrorist organization that is against the Iranian state. The US has not listed Tondar as a terrorist organization:
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/129530.html
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Israel launches covert war against Iran:
"It is using hitmen, sabotage, front companies and double agents to disrupt the regime's illicit weapons project, the experts say."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...inst-Iran.html
The terrorist Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) has reportedly played a major role in intensifying the recent wave of street violence in Iran. [/FONT] [FONT=굴]
[/FONT][FONT="]
Here is an example of a propaganda smear campaign by Western media:
This is a picture of a pro-Ahmadinejad rally in Iran, posted on the LA Times:
Here is a cropped image of the same photo but used in a BBC article that claims that these are anti-Ahmadinejad rallies (it says that it is a pro-Mousavi rally):
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Another example of sabotage. An Iranian scientist was kidnapped and held for over a year, under psychological pressure and offered 50 million USD for lying about Iran's nuclear program:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2027718.html
[/FONT][FONT=굴]
This is my point. The Iranian people want to be free from foreign countries thinking they have the right to rule their life.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]If you tried to get a grip on reality, you'd realize that you are merely describing Western governments - mainly the US.
I don't believe anyone has the right to take someone's life. But then again, if you look at your posts, what you're saying here is the opposite.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Once again, I am not Muslim.
Sharia law is different by every country and culture. Sharia law comes from the Quran and can also be interpreted by man. Man has misinterpreted countless things in history - Christianity, the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Hindu-ism, Buddhism, etc. The same goes for the aforementioned brutalities. Arranged marriages are even bigger in scope of world history. Hindu's, the major religion in India, go through arranged marriages. Asian cultures go through arranged marriages. I'm not saying I agree with an arranged marriage and I, personally, would not want to.
It is Sharia Law that Muslim females are able to get married when they are mature. The word mature can be misinterpreted or twisted into very different things. There is nowhere in Sharia Law where it states sexual intimacy is allowed between an adult male and a 2 year old child. Arranged marriages are only allowed with the consent of the two families and later the consent of the grown child - IF no sexual intimacy is present. It is a pact between two families, not an actual wedding ceremony between a grown male and a 2 year old female. Once again, I don't agree with this and I am not Muslim.
My point is cultures differ. We have different cultures, morals and ethical codes. A few disturbances within a culture grants no reason for a destruction of a culture nor does is it viable to label an entire civilization based on a handful of anomalies. We can go through hitherto and point out all the flawed interpretations and the crimes against humanity by all cultures of the world.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Stoning is referred to as a Pagan tradition in the Quran. There is nothing about stoning in the Quran. Stoning is, however, mentioned in the Bible and Torah several times (18 justifications for stoning as punishment in the Rabbinic Code):
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
- Deutoronomy 21
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
Leviticus 24:16
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (for adultery, even if you are a rape victim if you did not scream loud enough)
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
Leviticus 24:16
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
These are explicitly stated in the Bible (the Quran does not mention stoning at all). Misinterpretation should not be the premise for destruction. Knowledge should be the impasse to destruction.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]I already go through this earlier in my post.
Should I vote for the Democrat that will do nothing and pound me in the ass? Or should I vote for the Republican who will do nothing and pound me in the ass?
[/FONT][FONT="]This does not qualify as terrorism - and I've shown few of the many, many times that the West has funded, propagated and directly committed terrorism. The US has plans to use military force in Iran and have stated that they will not rule out military action. What about this?
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Once again, you are gravely mistaken. Do you really believe everything you read in the major headlines? Anyway, respond to my other post also - I talk about al Qaeda and their foundations. Who created al Qaeda? The US. Who created Osama bin Laden (AKA Tim Osman when he was a CIA tactician)? The US. This is what is called blowback. You're trying to justify invading a country and occupying it because of an "organization" that the US started up and continues to fund?
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Where have I proven myself to be "inept and ridiculous?" I have presented facts and I have not taken a strong position on the issue. I do not fully agree with the Iranian government but nor do I want to destroy Iranian civilization. You on the other hand have consistently been name-calling and calling for the destruction of a whole culture.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]I beg to differ. It is you who has swallowed every ounce of propaganda presented to you. You seem to be unable to think outside of the Western false paradigm of the world. Sure, it's easy to swallow all the major headlines and spit them out in rapid-fire. It's a lot more difficult to research with an open mind in depth to form a conclusion of your own.
[/FONT]
The NSA and CIA were listening in on this and Admiral Lyons goes on to say that he could have stopped it all but was outmaneuvered by higher ranking officials in Reagan's cabinet:
Retired Adm. Lyons maintained that he could have destroyed the terrorists at a hideout U.S. intelligence had pinpointed, but he was outmaneuvered by others in the cabinet of President Ronald Reagan.
"I was going to take them apart," Lyons said, "but the secretary of defense," Caspar Weinberger, "sabotaged it."
And also:
As the highest official in Iran in 1980s, Mir Hossein Mousavi was not only directly connected to the assassination of American citizens, but is also believed to have actually handpicked the men who later were held responsible for these attacks. The sources who state this arent his Iranian opponents, but Americans. The most notable are former CIA operative Robert Perry and the chief naval officer at the time Admiral James Lyons. Both men were privy to a lot of information, given their jobs.
Quoted from:
http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-06-24/Ha...forgotten.html
[/FONT][FONT="]http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/...n-iranian.html
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]The tactics of the "Green Revolution" are nothing new. Prior to the "Green Revolution" in Iran, the same tactics were used for:
The Rose Revolution in George with Saakashvilli.
The Orange Revolution in Ukraine with Yushchenko.
The Saffron Revolution in Myanmar which failed.
The Crimson Revolution in Tibet.
All of these color revolutions are to achieve what the CIA calls "full spectrum dominance" - that is destabilizing nations and taking over within through sabotage in order to weaken Russia and China. All of these color revolutions followed the same formulua, which is: funding the minority opposition and terrorist organizations, funding the dissident leader, covert ops within the nations borders, smear campaign via the mass media and finally, paying civilians to go out on the street to cause chaos for a news headline and the "takeover." We can start different threads on each specific revolution if you think I don't know anything about them - or we can get in depth on the Green Revolution in Iran that you believe genuinely stemmed from public dissidence.
The US has been funding the small group of dissidents in Iran for years now. Like the "revolution" in Venezuela, money was paid to civilians for going out into the streets and "taking a stand".
[/FONT][FONT=굴]
[/FONT][FONT="]"US funding terrorist group in Iran" - the US the Tondar, which is a terrorist organization that is against the Iranian state. The US has not listed Tondar as a terrorist organization:
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/129530.html
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Israel launches covert war against Iran:
"It is using hitmen, sabotage, front companies and double agents to disrupt the regime's illicit weapons project, the experts say."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...inst-Iran.html
The terrorist Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) has reportedly played a major role in intensifying the recent wave of street violence in Iran. [/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Iranian security officials reported Saturday that they have identified and arrested a large number of MKO members who were involved in recent riots in Irans capital.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]According to the security officials, the arrested members had confessed that they were extensively trained in Iraqs camp Ashraf to create post-election mayhem in the country.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]They had also revealed that they have been given directions by the MKO command post in Britain.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]The Mujahedin Khalq Organization is a Marxist guerilla group, which was founded in the 1960s.In the past two decades, MKO leaders have been resettled in the northern outskirts of Paris.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Anne Singleton, an expert on the MKO and author of 'Saddam's Private Army' explains that the West aims to keep the group afloat in order to use it in efforts to stage a regime change in Iran.
"With a new Administration in the White House a pre-emptive strike on Iran looks unlikely. Instead the MKO's backers have put together a coalition of small irritant groups, the known minority and separatist groups, along with the MKO. These groups will be garrisoned around the border with Iran and their task is to launch terrorist attacks into Iran over the next few years to keep the fire hot," she explains.
[/FONT]
"With a new Administration in the White House a pre-emptive strike on Iran looks unlikely. Instead the MKO's backers have put together a coalition of small irritant groups, the known minority and separatist groups, along with the MKO. These groups will be garrisoned around the border with Iran and their task is to launch terrorist attacks into Iran over the next few years to keep the fire hot," she explains.
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[FONT=굴]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Original article:
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/98647.html
[/FONT][FONT="]US[/FONT][FONT="] grants support for Iranian dissidents:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...an-money_N.htm[/FONT][FONT=굴]
^-- In other words, CIA will be funding more opposition with USAID and NGO's:[/FONT]
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/98647.html
[/FONT][FONT="]US[/FONT][FONT="] grants support for Iranian dissidents:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...an-money_N.htm[/FONT][FONT=굴]
^-- In other words, CIA will be funding more opposition with USAID and NGO's:[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Public records show that USAID has long been a front for CIA intelligence gathering, as well as a conduit for CIA funding to foreign governments and agencies, according to Bill Keisling. Pages 607 to 613 of the so-called CIA Family Jewels document describes a joint CIA/USAID training program.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]Andrew Natsios, USAIDs former head, stated unequivocally in a widely distributed 2003 speech that even foreign USAID-funded contractors and NGOs are an arm of the U.S. government. And the role of the much smaller NED was made clear when Allen Weinstein, one of its founders stated in a 1991 Washington Post article that, a lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]It is well documented that the CIAs USAID, along with the Pentagon, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), and the Venezuelan mafia in Miami attempted to overthrow Hugo Chávez. It has been affirmed that the coup against Chávez was CIA-made, writes Jean-Guy Allard of Granma International. The CIA and the State Department maintain various fronts in the country, as they always do.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴]In addition to USAID and NED, the failed coup against Chávez was coordinated by the International Republican Institute and Freedom House. Neocon and former CIA director James Woolsey was the chairman of Freedom House and trustees include the ubiquitous Zbigniew Brzezinski, former Clinton Commerce Secretary Stuart Eizenstat, and National Security Adviser Anthony Lake. Freedom House lists USAID, US Information Agency, Soros Foundations and the National Endowment for Democracy, among its financial backers, notes F. William Engdahl.[/FONT]
[FONT=굴](text is linked back to source)[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]
Here is an example of a propaganda smear campaign by Western media:
This is a picture of a pro-Ahmadinejad rally in Iran, posted on the LA Times:
Here is a cropped image of the same photo but used in a BBC article that claims that these are anti-Ahmadinejad rallies (it says that it is a pro-Mousavi rally):
[/FONT][FONT=굴]
Another example of sabotage. An Iranian scientist was kidnapped and held for over a year, under psychological pressure and offered 50 million USD for lying about Iran's nuclear program:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2027718.html
[/FONT][FONT=굴]
This is my point. The Iranian people want to be free from foreign countries thinking they have the right to rule their life.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]If you tried to get a grip on reality, you'd realize that you are merely describing Western governments - mainly the US.
I don't believe anyone has the right to take someone's life. But then again, if you look at your posts, what you're saying here is the opposite.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Once again, I am not Muslim.
Sharia law is different by every country and culture. Sharia law comes from the Quran and can also be interpreted by man. Man has misinterpreted countless things in history - Christianity, the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Hindu-ism, Buddhism, etc. The same goes for the aforementioned brutalities. Arranged marriages are even bigger in scope of world history. Hindu's, the major religion in India, go through arranged marriages. Asian cultures go through arranged marriages. I'm not saying I agree with an arranged marriage and I, personally, would not want to.
It is Sharia Law that Muslim females are able to get married when they are mature. The word mature can be misinterpreted or twisted into very different things. There is nowhere in Sharia Law where it states sexual intimacy is allowed between an adult male and a 2 year old child. Arranged marriages are only allowed with the consent of the two families and later the consent of the grown child - IF no sexual intimacy is present. It is a pact between two families, not an actual wedding ceremony between a grown male and a 2 year old female. Once again, I don't agree with this and I am not Muslim.
My point is cultures differ. We have different cultures, morals and ethical codes. A few disturbances within a culture grants no reason for a destruction of a culture nor does is it viable to label an entire civilization based on a handful of anomalies. We can go through hitherto and point out all the flawed interpretations and the crimes against humanity by all cultures of the world.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Stoning is referred to as a Pagan tradition in the Quran. There is nothing about stoning in the Quran. Stoning is, however, mentioned in the Bible and Torah several times (18 justifications for stoning as punishment in the Rabbinic Code):
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
- Deutoronomy 21
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
Leviticus 24:16
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (for adultery, even if you are a rape victim if you did not scream loud enough)
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
Leviticus 24:16
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
These are explicitly stated in the Bible (the Quran does not mention stoning at all). Misinterpretation should not be the premise for destruction. Knowledge should be the impasse to destruction.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]I already go through this earlier in my post.
Should I vote for the Democrat that will do nothing and pound me in the ass? Or should I vote for the Republican who will do nothing and pound me in the ass?
[/FONT][FONT="]This does not qualify as terrorism - and I've shown few of the many, many times that the West has funded, propagated and directly committed terrorism. The US has plans to use military force in Iran and have stated that they will not rule out military action. What about this?
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Once again, you are gravely mistaken. Do you really believe everything you read in the major headlines? Anyway, respond to my other post also - I talk about al Qaeda and their foundations. Who created al Qaeda? The US. Who created Osama bin Laden (AKA Tim Osman when he was a CIA tactician)? The US. This is what is called blowback. You're trying to justify invading a country and occupying it because of an "organization" that the US started up and continues to fund?
[/FONT][FONT=굴]Where have I proven myself to be "inept and ridiculous?" I have presented facts and I have not taken a strong position on the issue. I do not fully agree with the Iranian government but nor do I want to destroy Iranian civilization. You on the other hand have consistently been name-calling and calling for the destruction of a whole culture.
[/FONT][FONT=굴]I beg to differ. It is you who has swallowed every ounce of propaganda presented to you. You seem to be unable to think outside of the Western false paradigm of the world. Sure, it's easy to swallow all the major headlines and spit them out in rapid-fire. It's a lot more difficult to research with an open mind in depth to form a conclusion of your own.
[FONT="][/FONT]
Originally Posted by Smuggler
But again, way to avoid the brutal facts about the culture and attack the person. Those are the tactics of a moron, very telling.
[/FONT]
