right to work passed in wisconsin-now what?

NoDrama said:

I already lived in Memphis, it was spectacular. One of my favorite places ever, and I have been places.

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I have family from Memphis. They moved because it was poor compared to a northern state in which they moved . Good barbecue joints though. If you can't admit that your southern states are some of the poorest you are not willing to have a honest conversation.

panhead said:

What you can expect is lower wages , the end of pensions & replacement with IRA's where if you put too much per hour in your ira your 1st on the lay off list , regardless of skill or seniority, you can expect to see the costs of goods & services stay at current levels while wages take huge cuts .

You can expect large bonuses awarded to the corporate cronies while your hours are reduced to part time status , you can expect a lower yearly income while your cost of living goes up , you can expect corporate profits to skyrocket while you make less than ever before , you can expect the increased corporate profits to be dispersed to the top management & ceo's .

I Was in a unique position for decades where i saw unionized construction costs directly compared against non union construction costs , with a unionized construction workers hourly pay package being roughly 30% more than the non union counterpart common sense would tell us the non union building costs should be substantially less , this is not the case , ive seen hundreds of Multi Million & several Billion $ projects where higher cost union labor has cost as much as 15% less than non union bids , how is this possible ? Corporate greed !

Ive sat at hundreds of bid awards where multi million dollar projects were awarded to the low bidder , ive seen where union shops have beat out non union shops by less than $100k on projects over $10 million & much higher , again how is this possible ?

The answer is corporate greed , if anybody thinks any employer is gonna pay them a living wage comparable with their skill set becuase they are great guys think again & take a look at the history of labor in America , employers are only going to pay you as much as they have to & not a penny more , regardless of corporate profits .

I spent 32 yrs paying 2% of my wages in union dues & since retiring 4 .5 yrs ago have collected a monthly pension of nearly $6,000 a month , i will collect my pension till i die & if i die before my wife she'll recieve 50% of my pension for the rest of her life plus excellent health insurance .

Any non union retiree's around who's ex employers IRA package is sending them $5,800 a month because they worked so hard for them ?

Right to work being a tool to free up the economy of a state is an outright lie & has been proven to lower the quality of life of the hourly work force & leave communities with less income to spend .

Right to work laws are nothing more than an open door to corruption & cronyism in government & business .

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There`s some good points in this, but not everyone wants to be a laborer. Right to work States open up small businesses. Not every company has 40 employers.

panhead said:

What you can expect is lower wages , the end of pensions & replacement with IRA's where if you put too much per hour in your ira your 1st on the lay off list , regardless of skill or seniority, you can expect to see the costs of goods & services stay at current levels while wages take huge cuts .

You can expect large bonuses awarded to the corporate cronies while your hours are reduced to part time status , you can expect a lower yearly income while your cost of living goes up , you can expect corporate profits to skyrocket while you make less than ever before , you can expect the increased corporate profits to be dispersed to the top management & ceo's .

I Was in a unique position for decades where i saw unionized construction costs directly compared against non union construction costs , with a unionized construction workers hourly pay package being roughly 30% more than the non union counterpart common sense would tell us the non union building costs should be substantially less , this is not the case , ive seen hundreds of Multi Million & several Billion $ projects where higher cost union labor has cost as much as 15% less than non union bids , how is this possible ? Corporate greed !

Ive sat at hundreds of bid awards where multi million dollar projects were awarded to the low bidder , ive seen where union shops have beat out non union shops by less than $100k on projects over $10 million & much higher , again how is this possible ?

The answer is corporate greed , if anybody thinks any employer is gonna pay them a living wage comparable with their skill set becuase they are great guys think again & take a look at the history of labor in America , employers are only going to pay you as much as they have to & not a penny more , regardless of corporate profits .

I spent 32 yrs paying 2% of my wages in union dues & since retiring 4 .5 yrs ago have collected a monthly pension of nearly $6,000 a month , i will collect my pension till i die & if i die before my wife she'll recieve 50% of my pension for the rest of her life plus excellent health insurance .

Any non union retiree's around who's ex employers IRA package is sending them $5,800 a month because they worked so hard for them ?

Right to work being a tool to free up the economy of a state is an outright lie & has been proven to lower the quality of life of the hourly work force & leave communities with less income to spend .

Right to work laws are nothing more than an open door to corruption & cronyism in government & business .

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I had to see this repeated. My Grandfather was a union man.

natro.hydro said:

Out of curiousity are you a member of the nra? If you are it must really grind your gears that they use dues to make politcal contributions. I like firearms and like shooting them but those a holes will never get a cent from me, they are far to political nowadays
And the reason get behind dems (dont think they fund repubs but could be wrong) is because they support unions wgile republicans wrote legislation to dismantle them. I certainly wouldnt support the guy trying to end me lol

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There has never been anything un-poltical about the NRA. They exist because of the 2nd A. But, lately there is this Royalist backlash that created the gun nut culture.

So, the backlash is against the 2nd. And the backlash needs to be counter-lobbied.

Tough job.

nitro harley said:

I really only dislike the political part when they take everyones money and then get behind one guy or gal.

There are really no unions in the fishing industry, just workers, so I only have that one personal experience.

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Ya gotta fight fire with fire bro .

There is a mammoth establishment with unlimited funding called The " ABC " associated builders & contractors who's main goal is union busting nation wide , they employ atleast 10 full time lobbyists who influence every decision on capitol hill , they throw hundreds of millions of dollars around capital hill at all anti union politicians for campaign finance , they even help bust unions that have nothing to do with the construction industry just for fun , when you have a political powerhouse such as the ABC throwing hundreds of millions each year at lobbiests unions have no choice than to back a pro union candidate .

Keep in mind the same people who heavily fund the anti union lobby are the same employers who cry that $1 more per hour & they'll go out of business , funny how they do their math .

Not trying to pick on you bro but i did single you out in this thread to show how easily influenced people are into becomming anti union over issues such as politics & unions using workers wages to fund the union lobby , there isnt one large non union corporation in America that dont contribute to the political arena , only the non union corps are able to throw much more money into politics from paying workers less , taking away full time status , offering a $8 an hour worker an IRA & telling them they will match dollar for dollar in funding the ira , at $8 an hour how much can anybody afford to take from their check to put in the ira ? 10 or 20 cents per hour is the norm .

natro.hydro said:

I just dont understand how this is supposed to move our state forward? Only stats I have seen about right to work is that every state that has it has 3% lower wages across the board.... Are people forgetting that the middle class is practically non existant already? Now we are in the fast lane to working poor and rich as social classes.

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Absolutely right on & it only gets worse the longer RTW laws take hold of a state , here's an example on non union corporate greed & the lies they tell .

The anti union lobby highly touts they " offer " retirement packages to employees , most of which are IRA's where the employer will match dollar for dollar the contribution from employees , as union members we play hardball, we infiltrate & expose corporate greed & union busting companies .

20 some odd yrs ago i was laid off for a few weeks & went to the union hall seeing if they needed a hand & they said yes , they knew i am an expert mig & stick welder so they asked me to infiltrate a non union shop that makes machinery for Ford auto plants , were talking big business & hundreds of million dollar contracts .

I was hired in as a welder/fitter & my wage package was $8.10 an hour with a company sponsored IRA where they matched dollar for dollar , on my application where it asked how much you wanted to go into your IRA i marked $8 an hour , that meant the employer had to match $8 an hour , i made it 2 weeks before i was called into human resources for a meeting where i was asked if the $8 an hour was a mistake , i told them no & that my wife made enough to support us so i'll feed our retirement plans with my income , i was told " you realize you will be the highest paid employee at this company if you force us to match $8 an hour , i asked them how can this be ? Are you saying nobody at this huge operation makes over $16 an hour ? They knew something was up & ended the meeting .

I had the oposite experience as Nitro i had the scab workers telling me to slow down , my foreman assigned me a job & i thought he wanted all the welds done that day so i never even light a smoke & got all the welds done in one shift , the next morning i asked him whats next & he said wtf are you finished allready ? That was a weeks work i gave you , he had 2 men spend the day x-raying my welds looking for flaws & found none , they went over every inch twice & couldn't find any sub standard penetration & passed all my welds .

Later that day i was sent back to human resources & fired for substandard welds even though every last inch of my welds passed when x-Rayed , i told em i knew it was because the high IRA contributions & they'd be hearing from my union , law suits were filed with the labor board & picket lines went up .

The company is called Atlas Technologies & is located in Fenton michigan , just one example of whats to come with right to work .

Edit for correction .

panhead said:

Ya gotta fight fire with fire bro .

There is a mammoth establishment with unlimited funding called The " ABC " associated builders & contractors who's main goal is union busting nation wide , they employ atleast 10 full time lobbyists who influence every decision on capitol hill , they throw hundreds of millions of dollars around capital hill at all anti union politicians for campaign finance , they even help bust unions that have nothing to do with the construction industry just for fun , when you have a political powerhouse such as the ABC throwing hundreds of millions each year at lobbiests unions have no choice than to back a pro union candidate .

Keep in mind the same people who heavily fund the anti union lobby are the same employers who cry that $1 more per hour & they'll go out of business , funny how they do their math .

Not trying to pick on you bro but i did single you out in this thread to show how easily influenced people are into becomming anti union over issues such as politics & unions using workers wages to fund the union lobby , there isnt one large non union corporation in America that dont contribute to the political arena , only the non union corps are able to throw much more money into politics from paying workers less , taking away full time status , offering a $8 an hour worker an IRA & telling them they will match dollar for dollar in funding the ira , at $8 an hour how much can anybody afford to take from their check to put in the ira ? 10 or 20 cents per hour is the norm .

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Hey Panhead, I like a spirited debate. Right now I have 5 employee's and I pay them a percentage of my gross business so when the company has its ups and downs their pay checks go up and down and everybody is happy pretty much all the time, as long as we are productive.

My crew would weed out a slacker on day one. And I don't have a big turnover of workers they have been with me for years. So we don't worry about hourly rates or how many hours per day they work, they just work until the work is done and when the check comes they get there percentage of the gross before expenses. Its like profit sharing without the benefits and paid holidays or health care. There are times of the year they have some time off. I hand out 1099's like they are all self employed, they pay there own tax's and it seems to work pretty good.

But they have to save for there own retirement because I offer no benefits thats why there checks go up and down with production. There weekly checks have been as high as 10k or down to 0. There are not a lot of jobs with a nice retirement check at the end so you are one of the lucky ones. A lot of the nation is like cattle looking through the fence and seeing the nice green grass the unions have created but when only 11% of the nation is eating the green grass there will be hard feeling and jealousy because so few are benefiting. And you throw in politics to help protect that green grass and its a pandoras box.

I am not involved with unions but I can put your shoes on. Good luck to you.

panhead said:

Absolutely right on & it only gets worse the longer RTW laws take hold of a state , here's an example on non union corporate greed & the lies they tell .

The anti union lobby highly touts they " offer " retirement packages to employees , most of which are IRA's where the employer will match dollar for dollar the contribution from employees , as union members we play hardball, we infiltrate & expose corporate greed & union busting companies .

20 some odd yrs ago i was laid off for a few weeks & went to the union hall seeing if they needed a hand & they said yes , they knew i am an expert mig & tig welder so they asked me to infiltrate a non union shop that makes machinery for Ford auto plants , were talking big business & hundreds of million dollar contracts .

I was hired in as a welder/fitter & my wage package was $8.10 an hour with a company sponsored IRA where they matched dollar for dollar , on my application where it asked how much you wanted to go into your IRA i marked $8 an hour , that meant the employer had to match $8 an hour , i made it 2 weeks before i was called into human resources for a meeting where i was asked if the $8 an hour was a mistake , i told them no & that my wife made enough to support us so i'll feed our retirement plans with my income , i was told " you realize you will be the highest paid employee at this company if you force us to match $8 an hour , i asked them how can this be ? Are you saying nobody at this huge operation makes over $16 an hour ? They knew something was up & ended the meeting .

I had the oposite experience as Nitro i had the scab workers telling me to slow down , my foreman assigned me a job & i thought he wanted all the welds done that day so i never even light a smoke & got all the welds done in one shift , the next morning i asked him whats next & he said wtf are you finished allready ? That was a weeks work i gave you , he had 2 men spend the day x-raying my welds looking for flaws & found none , they went over every inch twice & couldn't find any sub standard penetration & passed all my welds .

Later that day i was sent back to human resources & fired for substandard welds even though every last inch of my welds passed when x-Rayed , i told em i knew it was because the high IRA contributions & they'd be hearing from my union , law suits were filed with the labor board & picket lines went up .

The company is called Atlas Technologies & is located in Fenton michigan , just one example of whats to come with right to work .

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Thats real cool you were in the inside of busting those greedy fucks.
The place I work at now is how I wish all places were.The owner is hands on, pays really well with annual raises and a generous xmas bonus.

ginwilly said:

Income Growth In Right-to-Work States Significantly Higher
Since 1990, most of states with fastest wage growth are RTW while most with least wage growth are non-RTW

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20161

Welp

What bothers me most about right to work is that if you work for a union shop, you don't have to join, but the union has to represent you, that seems stupid.

How about if you want to join a union and enjoy it's benefits you can, but if you don't join, you get none of the union ransoms.

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Ha ive read that bs misleading article before , the critical info conviently left out of the article is in the 10 states who reported individual household as being higher none report how many households were forced to have both the mother & father working to atain a liveable wage .

Quote from the article = Dr long said that "Business Development people have told me that 2/3 of major business would not even look at Michigan before it was a RTW state but now that it is there have been alot of inquiries" , what a load of crap toughted as fact , its hearsay propaganda created by the ABC , the abc ARE the " people who told him " , wtf kinda junk economics uses the old " he told me so routine " , notice the lack of Business names as citation backing up these remark. , the good Doctors citations are " alot of people told me " and this is from a man with a doctorate in business or economics ?? Silly shit there

Obahma dismissed that propaganda & rightly so because he saw its flawed & highly biased approach & the propaganda touted as fact .

That fancy little graph conviently leaves out how much of the increased household income comes from households where both parents are FORCED to work full time due to substantially lower wages , it also leaves out numbers showing families disposable income after paying full time child care costs .

Look behind the 2 people in the article touting RTW as a step up & you'll see private sector funding that can be traced back to the ABC lobby , surely in the case of Dr Brian Long who uses he said she said as examples of economic growth .

They told me so so its gotta be true , hahaha

panhead said:

Ha ive read that bs misleading article before , the critical info conviently left out of the article is in the 10 states who reported individual household as being higher none report how many households were forced to have both the mother & father working to atain a liveable wage .

Quote from the article = Dr long said that "Business Development people have told me that 2/3 of major business would not even look at Michigan before it was a RTW state but now that it is there have been alot of inquiries" , what a load of crap toughted as fact , its hearsay propaganda created by the ABC , the abc ARE the " people who told him " , wtf kinda junk economics uses the old " he told me so routine " , notice the lack of Business names as citation backing up these remark. , the good Doctors citations are " alot of people told me " and this is from a man with a doctorate in business or economics ?? Silly shit there

Obahma dismissed that propaganda & rightly so because he saw its flawed & highly biased approach & the propaganda touted as fact .

That fancy little graph conviently leaves out how much of the increased household income comes from households where both parents are FORCED to work full time due to substantially lower wages , it also leaves out numbers showing families disposable income after paying full time child care costs .

Look behind the 2 people in the article touting RTW as a step up & you'll see private sector funding that can be traced back to the ABC lobby , surely in the case of Dr Brian Long who uses he said she said as examples of economic growth .

They told me so so its gotta be true , hahaha

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ginwilly is kinda stupid and buys into this kind of shit frequently.

londonfog said:

I have family from Memphis. They moved because it was poor compared to a northern state in which they moved . Good barbecue joints though. If you can't admit that your southern states are some of the poorest you are not willing to have a honest conversation.

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So what you are saying is, they are poor because they are RTW states?
If that were true then ALL RTW states would be inhabited by poor people. Since that doesn't hold true because there are plenty of RTW states in the north and they are doing well means that your theory has been proven false. The south is not poor because they are RTW states, must be some other reason.

Try to come up with some other theory on why southern states are poor.

NoDrama said:

So what you are saying is, they are poor because they are RTW states?
If that were true then ALL RTW states would be inhabited by poor people. Since that doesn't hold true because there are plenty of RTW states in the north and they are doing well means that your theory has been proven false. The south is not poor because they are RTW states, must be some other reason.

Try to come up with some other theory on why southern states are poor.

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ginwilly has a theory about that. it's kind of ugly and racial though.

nitro harley said:

Hey Panhead, I like a spirited debate. Right now I have 5 employee's and I pay them a percentage of my gross business so when the company has its ups and downs their pay checks go up and down and everybody is happy pretty much all the time, as long as we are productive.

My crew would weed out a slacker on day one. And I don't have a big turnover of workers they have been with me for years. So we don't worry about hourly rates or how many hours per day they work, they just work until the work is done and when the check comes they get there percentage of the gross before expenses. Its like profit sharing without the benefits and paid holidays or health care. There are times of the year they have some time off. I hand out 1099's like they are all self employed, they pay there own tax's and it seems to work pretty good.

But they have to save for there own retirement because I offer no benefits thats why there checks go up and down with production. There weekly checks have been as high as 10k or down to 0. There are not a lot of jobs with a nice retirement check at the end so you are one of the lucky ones. A lot of the nation is like cattle looking through the fence and seeing the nice green grass the unions have created but when only 11% of the nation is eating the green grass there will be hard feeling and jealousy because so few are benefiting. And you throw in politics to help protect that green grass and its a pandoras box.

I am not involved with unions but I can put your shoes on. Good luck to you.

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Ha i like it , we both own Panheads , love HD's & own our own small businesses , i knew i liked you , only im not crazy enough to put nitro on a scooter & have balls enough to max it out at the strip Crazy bastard

You nailed it with jealousy & ignorance of what modern unions are about , in many cases their low pay is partially their own fault , if they organise & go union their business will be held accountable to pay living wages & not keep all the profits amongst the top 1% of their company , workers shouldnt hate us , they should join us & make a better life for their family .

Unions were created because corporate profits were at record breaking levels while hourly wages were at record lows , workers had to work 60 hrs a week just to barely survive , this is exactly whats happening in corporate America right now , companies spend billions alienating new workers against unions with falsehoods, money that would be better used by workers families .

For all the anti union folk , would it be worth paying 2% of your earnings in order to recieve a 30% wage hike ?

How many RIU members are employed & still need to have public assistance ? RTW laws only assure you'll stay at low pay your whole career.

panhead said:

How many RIU members are employed & still need to have public assistance ? RTW laws only assure you'll stay at low pay your whole career.

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This is why the conservative argument for no minimum wage and no unions are contradictory imo. Minimum wage is there to ensure you survive off a 40 hour work week at the very least, but as you said some people are working 60 hours a week at minimum wage and still just scraping by. I mean the difinition of minimum wage is a living wage.
If politicians protected the working man like they protect their wallets then there would be no need to have unions, but dont mind me I often have delusions of a utopia lol.

natro.hydro said:

Minimum wage is there to ensure you survive off a 40 hour work week at the very least

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Are you sure about this?

OddBall1st said:

There`s some good points in this, but not everyone wants to be a laborer. Right to work States open up small businesses. Not every company has 40 employers.

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Exactly how does RTW open up small business , especially the ones with less than 40 employees .

Im a small business owner that employs 2 high paid tradesmen , 2 mid level apprentices & my son manages the business , we have 5 full timers & up to 12 at busy times where i add on clean up crews .

As a small liscensed private business i'd love to hear what RTW laws are gonna do in helping my business stay afloat ?

Not that open up,

I got two steady and sometime a third in the summer. They don`t sign a contract, can come or go as they please, I pay the vendors, stock, and then I pay my help accordingly when they started and progressively after. I leave room for profit. Offer no IRA or Pensions, or Health Care. have been forced to change my work because of the economy and return to it. I pay my guys enough to get or not get simple things like Health insurance or future investments, I aint cheap and get what I pay out of my guys. I`m even open to barter and give a credit line once earned.

I don`t need to act or behave like a large corporation and I certainly don`t need Federal guidance and I certainly don`t want some construction Union bullying me into joining.

I need to be left alone with my crew so I can grow and expand, not work out of my ole beat up puck up truck and scape by because of Politicians or Unions wanting a piece.

I like being able to fire someone at will, I like being able to hire who I choose at will. I like them doing what I say and not someone else`s opinion.

Now look at it like an employee, He can be fired at will, he can be hired at will, he can quit at will with just his last check due. No contracts or rates. You`ll get what you`re worth.

I shouldn`t have to join a Construction Union and kick in shares. I should have a right to choose and so should my crew.

nitro harley said:

Hey Panhead, I like a spirited debate. Right now I have 5 employee's and I pay them a percentage of my gross business so when the company has its ups and downs their pay checks go up and down and everybody is happy pretty much all the time, as long as we are productive.

My crew would weed out a slacker on day one. And I don't have a big turnover of workers they have been with me for years. So we don't worry about hourly rates or how many hours per day they work, they just work until the work is done and when the check comes they get there percentage of the gross before expenses. Its like profit sharing without the benefits and paid holidays or health care. There are times of the year they have some time off. I hand out 1099's like they are all self employed, they pay there own tax's and it seems to work pretty good.

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I pulled out this section to quote cause your business model is much like the way i run/ran our family business , the top 5 guys work full time , make a great living & will weed out any loafers by coffee break .

My company crew is all family , i pay them hourly salaries set at 40 hours ,some weeks they work 50 hrs & others they work 25 hrs & i leave their salary the same weekly amount regardless of hours worked, their salaries are covered by maintaining our rental properties & the 2 self storage facilities we own , we keep profits from this end .

We speculate in real estate also where we buy foreclosed homes , put them back up to code , jazz the places up with modern kitchens & bath , toss in some quick landscaping & flip em back out on the market , we shoot for 40% profit margins on these homes , here is where im able to give out bonuses .

The way i ran my business was i kept 35% of the profits from the home sales & dispersed 65% to my men , like you i believe in keeping a small work force well paid & happy vs larger profits , realtors have noticed the difference in our homes compared to other flip this house quickees where shit work was done .

I trained my son to take over the business & he's running the show now , hopefully he can maintain the business we built for the family .

RTW laws dont effect workers who's employers are like you & me .

I'm a union Ironworker. I've worked with non union crews while I was getting my union wages. The RTW dudes love working in union states. They get prevailing wages.
Right to work doesn't benefit the workers it benefits the companies by not having to pay a living wage. RTW = right to slave wages. If your a slug worker in a union you will starve. You won't work it's pretty simple.

natro.hydro said:

Out of curiousity are you a member of the nra? If you are it must really grind your gears that they use dues to make politcal contributions. I like firearms and like shooting them but those a holes will never get a cent from me, they are far to political nowadays
And the reason get behind dems (dont think they fund repubs but could be wrong) is because they support unions wgile republicans wrote legislation to dismantle them. I certainly wouldnt support the guy trying to end me lol

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Pssst. Don't tell anybody but that, right there, is the essence of "right to work". You're a "right to work" supporter!