Room30's HP Aero Cabinet

I've built a new chamber for my next run. It's a 25Gal tote.



It's a cheap one so I had to wrap it in reflectix to make it light tight.

The top has five 2" holes equally spaces across the center, three of the holes are filled with 2" drain inspection caps that are drilled to allow the JG tubing to pass through holding the misters in place. THe two extra tees are my attempt to equalize the pressure as much as possible, I'm getting a fairly consistent mist across the three misters so it didn't hurt even if it didn't help.


Since I've had no luck with a root barrier and several people have talked about running without one I went with this as my attempt to keep the roots from soaking in the water.



These are individual salad dressing containers with a large hole drilled in the bottom and then hot glued to the bottom of the tote. My hope is that the light and air gap will be enough to dissuade the roots from going down into the drains. As always the gods laugh when men make plans.

Here it is in the cab, it pretty much fills the flower chamber and I lost 5 inches of grow height with the new chamber.

Nice work r0m. Can you elaborate on your drain thingy more? I'm not getting it. I don't use a root barrier myself, but my bags kinda serve the same purpose. They have a hard plastic bottom with holes all over. The bags sit in those water heater pans, that drain into my waste tub. Not as good as silk screen I suppose, but it does seem to drain fairly well. I think you're on the right track with your chamber design & will have better results for sure.

Good job on the tote man! Gotta have a place for the little ladies

r0m30 said:

Not more pressure, consistent pressure.

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hmm... I'm curious, especially so since you're using the same nozzles as me. How is the pressure the same coming out of them from crack to close? I mean, you have all that stuff to accomplish consistent pressure inline, well before the red nozzles, but they themselves do not hold in pressure. To accomplish consistent pressure at the nozzles wouldn't you need something at the nozzle itself?
I know cloudtop has two versions of those red nozzles btw, one with a screen inside, and one with a supposed 30psi anti drip check valve in them, which do you have? I currently use both, even hooked to the same pump, because i found the ones with the check valve don't hold any psi in the lines by themselves anyway. And after several grows i can confidently say the ones with the check valves get clocked with shit way easier. A few times I've found only the red nozzles with the check valve pissing a straight stream of water in a straight line, or not at all. And thats with a filter tween my pump and res. Not only that, i only use GH nutes, which by far devolves better in water then any other brand on a hydro store shelf. I think their flaw is not having a screen at all.

r0m30 said:

Another benefit is that the pump runs very little compared to a setup like yours, most HP pumps are not designed for constant cycling although PF has run his Aquatec that way for quite a while without a failure.

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How little is very little? Whats your on/off time?


As for the 6800's, all 3 of mine have lasted a few years now. I use 1 in the veg room, one in the flowering room, and one pumps out the runoff of both rooms. It was overkill to use a $90 6800 to pump runoff down a drain, but this way i have a backup if one feeding the ladies ever went down.


Oh BTW, love me a kill-a-watt meter too! I've figured the operational cost of every single device in my grow. Not necessary, but love knowing exactly what i pay to grow my own. It's helped me stop area of inefficiency and lower my over all grow cost too.


Peace

The cheapo nozzles I use have no check valve, nor a screen. I've been running them for months without a single blocked nozzle. My pump only has to run about 35 mins every 4-5 days. r0m is spot on about the two main benefits of running acc/solenoid. Instant pressure & easy life on your pump. There are many many pages of arguments between atomizer & petflora regarding this matter. Seems to me the biggest thing is the instant pressure. When you're trying to achieve hp aero roots, you're looking at mist times under 1 second. I doubt your pump even has a chance to get up to proper pressure in this small amount of time, making vpa (variable pressure aero). You can grow some sweet crops under these conditions, but the peeps here are after a certain kind of root structure that can only be possible under strict parameters. Just my opinion. You seem like a smart guy. I bet you'll be adding these components before ya know it.

In a fine tuned hpa environment you can decrease the amount of time it takes to finish a crop by a couple to a few weeks. Your last post sounded pretty dickish. I'd suggest being a bit more courteous & if you haven't read the threads, you're not doing yourself any favors.

I've specifically said, on more then one occasion, things to point out my complete undickishness intent in what i write. AND, have had those moments noticed by others, if YOU'VE read this thread lately mikey... So frankly, i really don't give a shit that your skin is too thin at this point. I read all threads from page 1 before i ever post, get over yourself. Your added input about shaving down grow time would have sufficed, I'm here for input, which that was, all not be it a good enough reason to me personally to justify the expense. 'You seem like a smart guy...' sounded kind of dickish to me first and i let it slide to focus on the points. My points have merit, stick to only addressing them like i do yours for a change why don't ya.

"In a fine tuned hpa environment you can decrease the amount of time it takes to finish a crop by a couple to a few weeks"
Over a 'varying' hp setup as you call it? Or is that say vs a soil grow?... makes a big difference what the control factor is there.

Mike Young said:

Nice work r0m. Can you elaborate on your drain thingy more? I'm not getting it. I don't use a root barrier myself, but my bags kinda serve the same purpose. They have a hard plastic bottom with holes all over. The bags sit in those water heater pans, that drain into my waste tub. Not as good as silk screen I suppose, but it does seem to drain fairly well. I think you're on the right track with your chamber design & will have better results for sure.

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The picture is upside down, probably should have flipped it.

The cups create the low point for drainage so there is no water left in the tub for the roots to soak in. They are clear so any roots that try and go down the drain hole should (he said hopefully) retreat once they are hit by the light.

Does that help. I'd go with a setup similar to yours if I wasn't space constrained.

DIYer said:

hmm... I'm curious, especially so since you're using the same nozzles as me. How is the pressure the same coming out of them from crack to close? I mean, you have all that stuff to accomplish consistent pressure inline, well before the red nozzles, but they themselves do not hold in pressure. To accomplish consistent pressure at the nozzles wouldn't you need something at the nozzle itself?
I know cloudtop has two versions of those red nozzles btw, one with a screen inside, and one with a supposed 30psi anti drip check valve in them, which do you have? I currently use both, even hooked to the same pump, because i found the ones with the check valve don't hold any psi in the lines by themselves anyway. And after several grows i can confidently say the ones with the check valves get clocked with shit way easier. A few times I've found only the red nozzles with the check valve pissing a straight stream of water in a straight line, or not at all. And thats with a filter tween my pump and res. Not only that, i only use GH nutes, which by far devolves better in water then any other brand on a hydro store shelf. I think their flaw is not having a screen at all.

Click to expand...

I'm using the CV nozzles and they do hold some pressure, not a lot but every little bit helps, I'm looking to get the best HPA setup I can so I went the extra step. Yes, the most control would be had with a solenoid at every nozzle but that's overkill to me so we are just at different places in how far we are willing to go. I've had one nozzle clog so far, we will see how this round goes. Is it all required to grow? Hell no, but I like to tinker too so this fulfills both needs. The only time I've seen a nozzle do the stream thing is when there isn't enough pressure but if you're getting 90PSI it was probably starting to clog.

I use Jacks Hydro it 's completely soluble, I can't bring myself to pay hydro store prices.

DIYer said:

How little is very little? Whats your on/off time?

Click to expand...

I'm going to start at .3s on and 3min off to see how that works with the new chamber, at those timings the pump should run for about 3.5 minutes every 3 days.

DIYer said:

As for the 6800's, all 3 of mine have lasted a few years now. I use 1 in the veg room, one in the flowering room, and one pumps out the runoff of both rooms. It was overkill to use a $90 6800 to pump runoff down a drain, but this way i have a backup if one feeding the ladies ever went down.

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Yeah, Same reason I used the 6800 on the cloner, nice to have a spare.

DIYer said:

I've specifically said, on more then one occasion, things to point out my complete undickishness intent in what i write. AND, have had those moments noticed by others, if YOU'VE read this thread lately mikey... So frankly, i really don't give a shit that your skin is too thin at this point. I read all threads from page 1 before i ever post, get over yourself. Your added input about shaving down grow time would have sufficed, I'm here for input, which that was, all not be it a good enough reason to me personally to justify the expense. 'You seem like a smart guy...' sounded kind of dickish to me first and i let it slide to focus on the points. My points have merit, stick to only addressing them like i do yours for a change why don't ya.

"In a fine tuned hpa environment you can decrease the amount of time it takes to finish a crop by a couple to a few weeks"
Over a 'varying' hp setup as you call it? Or is that say vs a soil grow?... makes a big difference what the control factor is there.

Click to expand...

Please guys let's not start a flame war, there are as many ways to grow as there are growers, whatever works for you/them should be your/their choice.

DIYer said:

Hey man nice setup! I got a few of the same parts you use. I have 28 of those red misters from cloudtop, there all i run, and the 6800 pump, my grow room uses 3 of um. I even made my own LED arrays, but i have no solenoids, pressure regulators, or accumulator tanks,... although the toy lover in me's got me wondering what do they all do for you? Give you more pressure? I also made a 2 misters per 5Gal bucket system, currently have 10 misters running off a 6800 pump, 6sec on/7min off, and i hit 90psi, and root masses pretty much fill a bucket by time i chop one down. Not to sound snide, might be a dumb question on my part, but what do all those other gadgets do for you, vs not having them like i don't?

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The accumulator and etc give control. They allow a crisp on/off cycle so the mist is all one pressure and the droplets don't get thicker under the low pressure during pressure ramp up/down. Also allows tightly controlled mist cycles which really count eventually once you want to really get the benefits of HPA roots.

r0m30 said:

Thanks

Not more pressure, consistent pressure.

You don't sound snide, looking at a HP areo setup can give you that WTF feeling. The accumulator, pressure regulator and solenoids give you a consistent pressure at the nozzles so that they provide as much of the mist at the target size of ~50 microns as possible. Without those components your pressure and mist quality will vary during the time the pump takes to pressurize the lines when it starts up and again as the pressure falls off when the pump shuts off. I don't know exactly how much of an effect that has on your plant growth but if I'm going to do this I'm going to shoot for the best possible outcome.

Another benefit is that the pump runs very little compared to a setup like yours, most HP pumps are not designed for constant cycling although PF has run his Aquatec that way for quite a while without a failure.

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According to Atomizer, it can have a big effect on roots. If the idea is to lightly coat the roots with 50ish micron mist, it is undone by the varied pressures and yeilds similar results to low pressure aero. He once said it something like this" It's like throwing a bucket of paint on a canvas, then painting a masterpiece on top of it, then tossing another bucket of paint on top of that"- which actually makes sense. If you saturate with thick drops on top of the fine ones, the fine ones just disappear into the slop as if they never happened. You might as well use a gpm pump and some sprinkler heads. Also, having solution in storage under pressure failsafe's the system against power failures as long as the timer and solenoids are on battery backup. Also gives some leeway in a pump failure situation.

r0m30 said:

I've built a new chamber for my next run. It's a 25Gal tote.

View attachment 2001165

It's a cheap one so I had to wrap it in reflectix to make it light tight.

The top has five 2" holes equally spaces across the center, three of the holes are filled with 2" drain inspection caps that are drilled to allow the JG tubing to pass through holding the misters in place. THe two extra tees are my attempt to equalize the pressure as much as possible, I'm getting a fairly consistent mist across the three misters so it didn't hurt even if it didn't help.
View attachment 2001181

Since I've had no luck with a root barrier and several people have talked about running without one I went with this as my attempt to keep the roots from soaking in the water.

View attachment 2001166

These are individual salad dressing containers with a large hole drilled in the bottom and then hot glued to the bottom of the tote. My hope is that the light and air gap will be enough to dissuade the roots from going down into the drains. As always the gods laugh when men make plans.

Here it is in the cab, it pretty much fills the flower chamber and I lost 5 inches of grow height with the new chamber.

Click to expand...

Nice man, perhaps it will dissuade the roots, but they really have radar for water and grow straight towards it. Try using some window screen frames screened with the silkscreen- it looks like it will work well for me without having any roots touch it yet. Sending good luck for you and your v2 chamber...

DIYer said:

I've specifically said, on more then one occasion, things to point out my complete undickishness intent in what i write. AND, have had those moments noticed by others, if YOU'VE read this thread lately mikey... So frankly, i really don't give a shit that your skin is too thin at this point. I read all threads from page 1 before i ever post, get over yourself. Your added input about shaving down grow time would have sufficed, I'm here for input, which that was, all not be it a good enough reason to me personally to justify the expense. 'You seem like a smart guy...' sounded kind of dickish to me first and i let it slide to focus on the points. My points have merit, stick to only addressing them like i do yours for a change why don't ya.

"In a fine tuned hpa environment you can decrease the amount of time it takes to finish a crop by a couple to a few weeks"
Over a 'varying' hp setup as you call it? Or is that say vs a soil grow?... makes a big difference what the control factor is there.

Click to expand...

DIYer, to be honest, we are doing something quite different here than traditional aero. These threads (mine especially) are vastly long by now, so i don't expect people to read the whole thing anymore, but perhaps the first 100-200 posts or so would be plenty to get the main picture. If you indeed read, and retained/comprehended, then you should understand why we look for the control. But None of us are really holier than thou, we all know were a bit eccentric and different than the most of the growing world out there. You have said a couple things that might have ruffled feathers just because we are sensitive and worn out by so many others popping in and giving their 2 cents which really has nothing to do with the subject here. However, you have shown you have good intentions and are just trying to be a part of our community here. I think you may have read deeper into Mike's comment about you being smart- i truly think he meant you are the kind of guy who is like us, and is interested in upgrading if you hear a certain method is better, and you like to tinker with stuff as we do. He has been a little hard on you, and that's probably why you assumed he was being snide. I hope you guys get past all of this soon. Anyway, the point is that these threads are really meant to enlighten people on the fact that there is a different result when you have specific control over the mist droplet size and cycle time. If you give them what they need, but also keep them dry enough still, they will grow a different type of rootstructure that has benefits and is considered a "true HPA rootstructure". In order to have this control, you really have to follow the system and components to achieve this. The roots will become white and fluffy such as cotton candy, filled with millions of tiny hairs that increase the surface area. This causes them to become very efficient, which allows us to save nutes and water, and drain to waste very economically, while having tighter internodes, faster growth and some other benefits. But it's an all or nothing thing. If you don't use the accumulator and solenoids, you will have a hard to maintain system, that yeilds no better results than low pressure aero. Not saying LPA is bad- but just different than what we strive for here. This is a huge misconception in the aero world, and why aero gets such a bad rap as being overly complicated, touchy, and a pump failure away from crop death. If done properly, HPA is a very low maintenance way to grow, quite failsafe, and should provide better results than other methods if dialed in correctly. If you like tree farmer's numbers, then read on to understand how it can be achieved. My thread is a good starting point if you really want to understand. Aerojunkie's thread here, pushes past into another even more complex realm where compressed air and nozzles that mix the air and effluent in an atomised fashion, to obtain even better results- it's the race car of high pressure aero. But that's what he's into, and it's quite fascinating. I will probably retrofit my HPA system soon to be similar. But it's also more complex and touchy too- with more variables to contend with and dial in. Anyway- read a bit of the beginning of my thread, and you'll start to understand better what we're all about here, and you can decide if it's for you or not.

r0m30 said:

the most control would be had with a solenoid at every nozzle but that's overkill to me so we are just at different places in how far we are willing to go.

Click to expand...

That would totally be overkill to me too dude, especially in a 5gal bucket IMO.

r0m30 said:

I've had one nozzle clog so far, we will see how this round goes.

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That's not good,.. you just got growing in this cab right? IMO those red nozzles with the CV suck balls. They really should have a screen in them too IMO. In my experience, the littlest piece of crap will get past that spring loaded ball inside and clog the nozzle. The ones with just a screen hold no pressure i admit, but never have i had one of them clog and stop spraying after many grows.

The best of both worlds would be to pay 2x for the nozzles, get both, and pull the screen from the ones and put them in the CV nozzles. I use good filters but a little is always going to get through, i mean we're pumping what amounts to some pretty heavy water through these lines right? Keep an eye on them, they'll clog instantly on you with no screen to slowly catch the buildup. And the thing that pisses me off most, is once a CV nozzles clogs i can rarely get it unclogged and i have to toss it. I've tried soaking them in isopropyl alcohol too, still they'll stay completely clogged or pissing a stream at best most times. And if something gets tween the CV ball and sidewall, well there goes your pressure right?

From left to right,.. cloudtop nozzle with screen only,.. with check valve only,.. and far right my combo of the two. Not that i have enough laying around to run nozzles like this in my system currently :-/

r0m30 said:

I use Jacks Hydro it 's completely soluble, I can't bring myself to pay hydro store prices.

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hmmm,.. never heard of it till now. i gave it a google but don't see where to buy. How does one not pay hydro store prices for something called jacks hydro? lol. I buy my GH online, get it from the cheapest store i can find every time. But no seriously, where do you get JH?

r0m30 said:

I'm going to start at .3s on and 3min off to see how that works with the new chamber, at those timings the pump should run for about 3.5 minutes every 3 days.

Click to expand...

Good HD video of the misters going off, in a setup like this would be interesting to see i feel.

DIYer said:

I'm personally not going to talk about yield one vs the other, too many other variables to even compare IMO, but as for hard to maintain i gotta politely disagree. I have my non acc/solenoid system setup so i don't have to do a single bit of work for 2 weeks at a time. Bi weekly i go into the room to crop a plant, fill the res's, and rotate one out of the veg room to the flowering room. Done, see you bitches in 2 more weeks.



That's also very true for roots inside the bucket as I'm sure you know, and that being said think about where those fine roots end up inside a 5gal bucket in relation to where your nozzles are located, by the end of a grow. I've never sniffed an acc/solenoid (yet) and every 2 weeks when i crop a lady, my root masses fill a 5gal bucket enough to block those 50 micron drops from getting more then 2" from a nozzle before they hit a mass of root.

View attachment 2002639
I took this pic this morning, this lady is about a month from being cropped. Make fun of my less hairy then yours roots, i can take it. My mister location is much further back from the root mass to be then most set there stuff up, and still this is what happens without an acc/solenoid in my setup. Again, not trying to be a dick to anyone, but someone tell me what would it matter if every droplet coming out of those nozzles were nuts on 50 microns in size if there to travel 1" before they hit a wall of white?
I'm not saying going for 50 microns every time isn't an idea worth pursuing, but i think someone would only really reap the benefits from it if there root masses were in something a lot bigger then a 5 gal bucket. Something where each mister was at least a foot away from the stalk on either side, something tall so roots could hang more, so mist had a chance to hit more if the root mass then just the clump in front of the nozzle. Putting all that technology into a 5gal bucket seems like buying a space shuttle to go to the corner grocery store,.. or learning how to drive in the garage perhaps. I just wonder if the real benefits of knowing how to do this to the root structure of an mj plant wont be recognized until its done on a much larger scale.

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Lookin good man... a rootball to a 50 micron droplet is like a chainlink fence to a mosquito. The mist can still get through better than you think. However, it is true a 5 gallon bucket is not optimal in HPA- perhaps for even different reasons than you mention. The mist needs air volume to spread out and expand, although 5 gallon buckets can get pretty good results as some have shown, I believe the best results are in larger chambers. I am glad you have your accumulatorless setup dialed in so well, and stand corrected in some respects. If your pump fails however, you are only hours away from crop death- or what sort of failsafes do you have for power outages, pump failures, etc? In the end, these things don't happen that often, so even if unaccounted for it may not be a huge deal. It's just that people always complain that those are the issues of aero. Where I live the electric is very wishy-washy, so running off a 12v battery is good for me. Anyway, not interested in a pissing contest, but it is interesting to see how others have chosen to grow, and how they get around the obstacles we all have to deal with. I think you're a good example of how much more there is to growing than just buying expensive and complicated equiptment. In the end reading the plants and understanding their needs trumps all. A little common sense goes a long way- and a green thumb is handy. From what I see of that picture those are some of the best accumulatorless roots I've seen- Petflora will probably want to pick your brain as he also goes that route.

DIYer said:

That would totally be overkill to me too dude, especially in a 5gal bucket IMO.


That's not good,.. you just got growing in this cab right? IMO those red nozzles with the CV suck balls. They really should have a screen in them too IMO. In my experience, the littlest piece of crap will get past that spring loaded ball inside and clog the nozzle. The ones with just a screen hold no pressure i admit, but never have i had one of them clog and stop spraying after many grows.

The best of both worlds would be to pay 2x for the nozzles, get both, and pull the screen from the ones and put them in the CV nozzles. I use good filters but a little is always going to get through, i mean we're pumping what amounts to some pretty heavy water through these lines right? Keep an eye on them, they'll clog instantly on you with no screen to slowly catch the buildup. And the thing that pisses me off most, is once a CV nozzles clogs i can rarely get it unclogged and i have to toss it. I've tried soaking them in isopropyl alcohol too, still they'll stay completely clogged or pissing a stream at best most times. And if something gets tween the CV ball and sidewall, well there goes your pressure right?

Click to expand...

Must have gotten my nozzles on a good day, they have both the CV and a screen. I wasn't able to unclog the one that failed, and I don't think Mech has gotten one unclogged either. I've pretty much decided that once they clog they are toast. I'm still wanting to try the DIG nozzles that mike found in a grow and not just in the cloner.

DIYer said:

hmmm,.. never heard of it till now. i gave it a google but don't see where to buy. How does one not pay hydro store prices for something called jacks hydro? lol. I buy my GH online, get it from the cheapest store i can find every time. But no seriously, where do you get JH?

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I think this is why you got under Mike's skin. Tone is hard to get across when you are writing a post to a forum like this, the LOL helps but this could be taken as sarcastic or good natured chiding, I'll assume the latter and ....

You buy Jacks directly from the company. http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Hydroponics/Buy-Hydroponics.html
no BS glossy ads in print or on this and other forums. $5 for a pound of each part (it was about $20 after shipping) and you can mix it to match most of the "specialty" products that are in the hydro store. The GA tells you pretty much everything you need to know to mix your favorite formula.

DIYer said:

I know those old ones to keep computers on will run those energy hogs a few hours, a few small pumps should be easy to backup for id guess over a day off a good one. How long does an acc buy you if the power or pump goes out?

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As always when talking about a complex system, it depends. The accumulator does you zero good if you don't have your timer and solenoids on a backup power source, and since you need the BU anyway try to size it for your pumps as well, the 6800 only draws a few watts. The length of time your accumulator will last depends an it's size, the number of nozzles you're using,the flow rate of the nozzles and the on/off cycle. I'm pretty sure I posted a link to the formula to figure out the effective capacity of an accumulator somewhere either here or TB's thread. If you can't find it, I'll look for it again.

I'm using a 1000W triplite as a power backup and I had it run the system for over a week during shakedown (without the light). It depends on the draw of all the components you need to keep running, your timer and solenoids at a minimum, then the pump needs to run every few days to recharge the accumulator. You have a kill-a-watt it should be pretty easy to figure out, and working from home you could test it even with a crop going.

"Must have gotten my nozzles on a good day, they have both the CV and a screen"

get the fuck out! I knew that was a good idea,.. i gotta ask why i never got ones like that...


I have the purple dig nozzles, totally forgot i tried them out once,.. part number 07-044, this site says there 60-100 micron droplets FYI. Yet somehow they 'supposedly' use less water then the cloudtop nozzles which i thought i read somewhere were 50 micron. Doesn't sound right to me. I just fired one up to see its mist pattern next to a cloudtop,.. and i think to analyze which is better for a wall of roots 2" away would be the definition of splitting hairs. lol

DIYer said:

"Must have gotten my nozzles on a good day, they have both the CV and a screen"

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If you hit the "reply with quote button" under the post you are responding to the software will make it pretty for you.

DIYer said:

I have the purple dig nozzles, totally forgot i tried them out once,.. part number 07-044, this site says there 60-100 micron droplets FYI. Yet somehow they 'supposedly' use less water then the cloudtop nozzles which i thought i read somewhere were 50 micron. Doesn't sound right to me. I just fired one up to see its mist pattern next to a cloudtop,.. and i think to analyze which is better for a wall of roots 2" away would be the definition of splitting hairs. lol

Click to expand...

Yep, those are the ones, I'm using them in my cloner and want to try them in a grow. If I had a local source like Mike then I'd be in more of a hurry to do a test, and Mike is running them in his grow now so we can get a preview.