seeking soil advice

Wanting to make no till. I've been reading for about a month, but the time has come to start activating a batch, so to the best of my knowledge I came up with a list, and figured i'd come to the community for advice. I don't have access to all the fancy stuff, like the guanos; mostly all department stores around. Plus, I've read that subcool's recipe has its drawbacks.

Will be in 10 gal fabric pots. Got a worm bin going.

Here are my ingredients to make 1 cu. ft.

Soil/ humus/ compost/ castings/ (66%) (all equal parts except earthworm castings)
-Biomax compost shrimp mix, peat/humus/compost
-Pro mix myco active vegetable and herb, peat/humus/compost
-Kelp triple mix, peat/humus/compost
-Earthworm castings (half as much as the others)

Aeration (33%):
-Limestone Screenings
-Still debating, coco vs perlite - not sure where to get coco...
-Biochar, 10% to the mix

Nutrients:
-CIL - Blood and Bone Meal 7-7-0 (how much per cu. ft?)

I was thinking of "activating" all the aeration medium together, like they do for biochar. What is the best way of doing this? Drenching the biochar, limestone and perlite in a very wet earthworm casting slurry, mixing once in a while for a month...?

I found some lava rocks for use in a bbq - is it worth taking the time to crush and replace limestone?

Someone told me to use more "fish" if using biochar - what does using more "fish" mean?

Will be top dressing if anything's missing, with kelp and compost teas (do they work as claimed or is it all bogus?)

Is there any consideration for putting layers of things in the pots? Like, lining the bottom of the fabric pot with stones...?

Also planning on cover cropping with white clover, turning them over once in a while to release the nitrogen. Maybe even plant some rosemary, thyme and lavender, for pest control, and kicks. Do I really need worms and bugs to make it all work....? I've started reading the "Soil Food Web" - but, need to put those seeds in the ground soon.

This is really just a hobby - I plan on potscaping the shit out of this grow.

Any comments appreciated.

Composted Cow and/or Chicken dung?

I love the bug. Worms and other deep soil dwellers keep the soil from going anaerobic and producing ammonia. Microorganisms help aid the health of everything involved. Soil mites decompose materials on the top few inches and sides in the container. They and predator mites are pretty resistant to neem and pepper spray so you can still perform your regular spidermite control methods.

Using more fish is likely saying more amino acids ska proteins ska nitrogen since biochar filters out nitrogen. In my case though, I used biochar and chicken manure compost and it balanced out pretty well. I did not charge the biochar.

Rocks would be a bonus cuz theyll prevent the bottom from packing together and going anaerobic. The soil will fill in the gaps. Even a bunch of organic coal might be good for the bottom and would reduce the weight versus rocks.

iHearAll said:

I love the bug. Worms and other deep soil dwellers keep the soil from going anaerobic and producing ammonia. Microorganisms help aid the health of everything involved. Soil mites decompose materials on the top few inches and sides in the container. They and predator mites are pretty resistant to neem and pepper spray so you can still perform your regular spidermite control methods.

Using more fish is likely saying more amino acids ska proteins ska nitrogen since biochar filters out nitrogen. In my case though, I used biochar and chicken manure compost and it balanced out pretty well. I did not charge the biochar.

Rocks would be a bonus cuz theyll prevent the bottom from packing together and going anaerobic. The soil will fill in the gaps. Even a bunch of organic coal might be good for the bottom and would reduce the weight versus rocks.

Click to expand...

i always, always , always use the coco wool to line all my containers, works awesome, never gets clogged, and it keeps the roots and soil from compacting, acts like a spring or a bushing for the plant.

blunt_tip said:

Will be in 10 gal fabric pots. Got a worm bin going.

Here are my ingredients to make 1 cu. ft.

Soil/ humus/ compost/ castings/ (66%) (all equal parts except earthworm castings)
-Biomax compost shrimp mix, peat/humus/compost
-Pro mix myco active vegetable and herb, peat/humus/compost
-Kelp triple mix, peat/humus/compost
-Earthworm castings (half as much as the others)

Aeration (33%):
-Limestone Screenings
-Still debating, coco vs perlite - not sure where to get coco...
-Biochar, 10% to the mix

Nutrients:
-CIL - Blood and Bone Meal 7-7-0 (how much per cu. ft?)

I was thinking of "activating" all the aeration medium together, like they do for biochar. What is the best way of doing this? Drenching the biochar, limestone and perlite in a very wet earthworm casting slurry, mixing once in a while for a month...?

I found some lava rocks for use in a bbq - is it worth taking the time to crush and replace limestone?

Someone told me to use more "fish" if using biochar - what does using more "fish" mean?

Will be top dressing if anything's missing, with kelp and compost teas (do they work as claimed or is it all bogus?)

Is there any consideration for putting layers of things in the pots? Like, lining the bottom of the fabric pot with stones...?

Also planning on cover cropping with white clover, turning them over once in a while to release the nitrogen. Maybe even plant some rosemary, thyme and lavender, for pest control, and kicks. Do I really need worms and bugs to make it all work....? I've started reading the "Soil Food Web" - but, need to put those seeds in the ground soon.

This is really just a hobby - I plan on potscaping the shit out of this grow.

Any comments appreciated.

Click to expand...

ok.. so limestone shavings?
not sure i'd use that as an aeration, for organics you want more aerobic aeration really. Perlite, pumice, vermiculite, volcanic rock, etc..
I don't recommend using white clover in an attempt to provide nitrogen, reason being is they will use a good amount of your nutrients in the soil, not to mention in order for the nitrogen nodules to be used the plant and roots must be composted, and likely the soilweb disrupted, so it defeats the purpose.. Also nitrogen is by far the easiest macro to give them, so i don't really see the advantage at all.
Plus legumes use a good amount of the other nutrients, the ones they don't take from the atmosphere.

heres a copy paste from a site

The fixed nitrogen is not free; the plant must contribute a significant amount of energy in the form of photosynthate (photosynthesis-derived sugars) and other nutritional factors for the bacteria. However, some legumes are more efficient than others. Cowpea, for example, requires 3.1 mg of carbon (C) to fix 1 mg of N. White lupin, however, requires 6.6 mg of C to fix 1 mg of N (Layzell et al., 1979). A soybean plant may divert up to 50% of its photosynthate to the nodule instead of to other plant functions when the nodule is actively fixing nitrogen (Warembourg et al., 1982).

my point being that energy is derived from macro nutrients

All in all i did cover crops for a couple yrs and it's too much hassle, and they are hungry lil plants, they take a good amount of everything from the soil.

your inquiry regarding bugs and worms, the answer is YES.
remember the goal is to replicate nature, and you don't want to skip anything.

Your inquiry regarding biochar charging, you want to get a 5 gallon bucket, get you biochar rinsed after smashing it, then pee in the bucket, add 3 gallons, let it chill for an afternoon or so (just to soak it)
then you can use it.
if you have weird issues with urine then you can use fish hydrosylate (ithink that's what your buddy meant by saying it needs fish), blood meal tea (yummy), or nitrogen bat guano.
The urine is the best for this by far.

Topdressing does work, but only in small amounts, and is used more so as a supplemental type thing, only if needed.
If you have large macro defs topdressing isn't as helpful.
Which is why the initial soil construction must be made diligently.

personally i don't like blood meal or bone meal.
Bovine bone meal not only requires acidic conditions to become available it also may have serious health concerns as well, if you do use bone meal, try for swine or fishbone meal. With fishbone being the best.

i'd go with alfalfa meal, and fish meal over blood meal as well.

Ok, so that being said i realize i just critiqued your entire plan, and i want to be clear in saying that i don't mean any harm in that.
it's all 100% information that i feel is crucial considering the advise you are seeking.

This is exactly the advice i was seeking. The few seeds I cracked are in promix with myco at the moment.

Sheep/Cow/Poultry manures are available at the store. I can also get my hands on horse manure compost (mixed with straw for at least a year) and rabbit manure (pure). Any of these necessary, considering the soils mentioned above?

I guess I'll be pissing in a bucket for a while... What's the shelf life on that product? Biochar/Urine ratio?

The limestone shavings were for ph balance and was going to add something like... 5 cups per 10gal? Maybe I'll get some of those volcanic rocks for bbq and crush them instead - they're lighter, too. Dolomite? Gypsum? Glacial Rock Dust?

Cover crops are scratched from the list - might have other pots under the canopy for leisure and pest control - I've read, rosemary, lavender and thyme - but don't really know which do what.

Is lining the fabric pot with coco coir a necessity, or is that more for plastic containers?

So, top dressing is only when there's major nutrient defficiency (change in leaf colour and such?) Or should I just be running teas?

And teas... I see a whole new industry being propped up with premade bags...

What should I get for my tea "pantry"? Alfalfa meal, Kelp meal...?

Mammoth P, worth it?

I hope this helps others...

blunt_tip said:

This is exactly the advice i was seeking. The few seeds I cracked are in promix with myco at the moment.

Sheep/Cow/Poultry manures are available at the store. I can also get my hands on horse manure compost (mixed with straw for at least a year) and rabbit manure (pure). Any of these necessary, considering the soils mentioned above?

I guess I'll be pissing in a bucket for a while... What's the shelf life on that product? Biochar/Urine ratio?

The limestone shavings were for ph balance and was going to add something like... 5 cups per 10gal? Maybe I'll get some of those volcanic rocks for bbq and crush them instead - they're lighter, too. Dolomite? Gypsum? Glacial Rock Dust?

Cover crops are scratched from the list - might have other pots under the canopy for leisure and pest control - I've read, rosemary, lavender and thyme - but don't really know which do what.

Is lining the fabric pot with coco coir a necessity, or is that more for plastic containers?

So, top dressing is only when there's major nutrient defficiency (change in leaf colour and such?) Or should I just be running teas?

And teas... I see a whole new industry being propped up with premade bags...

What should I get for my tea "pantry"? Alfalfa meal, Kelp meal...?

Mammoth P, worth it?

I hope this helps others...

Click to expand...

Haven't read all of this yet but go with EM1 and read up on activating it. Its exactly the same as mammoth P but a fraction of the cost. Or learn how to make lactic acid bacteria serum. Same stuff, same price as activating EM1 in the end. A little more labor intensive but will teach you something. Read up!

blunt_tip said:

This is exactly the advice i was seeking. The few seeds I cracked are in promix with myco at the moment.

Sheep/Cow/Poultry manures are available at the store. I can also get my hands on horse manure compost (mixed with straw for at least a year) and rabbit manure (pure). Any of these necessary, considering the soils mentioned above?

I guess I'll be pissing in a bucket for a while... What's the shelf life on that product? Biochar/Urine ratio?

The limestone shavings were for ph balance and was going to add something like... 5 cups per 10gal? Maybe I'll get some of those volcanic rocks for bbq and crush them instead - they're lighter, too. Dolomite? Gypsum? Glacial Rock Dust?

Cover crops are scratched from the list - might have other pots under the canopy for leisure and pest control - I've read, rosemary, lavender and thyme - but don't really know which do what.

Is lining the fabric pot with coco coir a necessity, or is that more for plastic containers?

So, top dressing is only when there's major nutrient defficiency (change in leaf colour and such?) Or should I just be running teas?

And teas... I see a whole new industry being propped up with premade bags...

What should I get for my tea "pantry"? Alfalfa meal, Kelp meal...?

Mammoth P, worth it?

I hope this helps others...

Click to expand...

the biochar should be used immediately after it's ready.
just follow the advice i gave you regarding that and you are good, don't let it soak past a few hours or so.
then strain and mix into your soil.

I don't have any experience regarding the limestone shavings for ph control, i'd imagine it'd break down much too slow to be of use.

I don't use teas much anymore, but alfalfa, fish hydrosylate, and such are just fine.

Topdressing, for me, is more like a "maintenance" type of thing, and it's usually just shredded fresh comfrey and compost mixed.
that being said fresh comfrey is nearly THE perfect topdress.

as far as the fabric pot? i don't see an issue to line the bottom with coco wool, not needed really
i don't use fabrics much anymore for my indoors though, i need more symmetry, so square plastics serve me better for the space i have.

greasemonkeymann said:

the biochar should be used immediately after it's ready.
just follow the advice i gave you regarding that and you are good, don't let it soak past a few hours or so.
then strain and mix into your soil.

I don't have any experience regarding the limestone shavings for ph control, i'd imagine it'd break down much too slow to be of use.

I don't use teas much anymore, but alfalfa, fish hydrosylate, and such are just fine.

Topdressing, for me, is more like a "maintenance" type of thing, and it's usually just shredded fresh comfrey and compost mixed.
that being said fresh comfrey is nearly THE perfect topdress.

as far as the fabric pot? i don't see an issue to line the bottom with coco wool, not needed really
i don't use fabrics much anymore for my indoors though, i need more symmetry, so square plastics serve me better for the space i have.

Click to expand...

Not that you should go spending money. But I founded ebay carries square fabric pots, some with handles. Nearly every size you could pick up with your hands

iHearAll said:

Not that you should go spending money. But I founded ebay carries square fabric pots, some with handles. Nearly every size you could pick up with your hands

Click to expand...

yea, i know, I've seen them, i just don't like fabrics for inside, i gotta move shit around too much
they do kickass for outdoor grows though, and the big ones are badass for storing and keeping castings or compost fresh and live

@blunt_tip
regarding the mammoth p
depends on what you have in your soil, but for the most part i'm not a subscriber for microbes kept alive in an anaerobic condition.
If you have any source of fresh microbes (castings or compost) and that'll shit all over the mammoth p.
i believe it has triacantrol as well.
so it's basicly alfalfa derived and "microbes"
the concern i have is the aforementioned anaerobicness, and the fact that the microbes responsible for phosphorus chelation is mostly endo mycohorizae
and those need to be applied on the actual roots themselves..
sooo
i don't know.
but i don't buy anything in a bottle anymore.
Well, except pro-tekt, but that bottle has lasted me yrs

A lot of it looks pretty good from what I'm reading, although I have a few suggestions.

For one, avoid using bone/blood meal if possible. Takes a while to stop being hot among other things. Look into crab/neem/kelp meals for your amendments and those should do just fine.

Also, use bigger pots than 10 gallon if it's at all possible. Even if you went with just a 20 gallon you would get much better results for a variety of reasons.

Other than that things look good!

Thanks for steering me in some form of direction.

I have access to 25 gal. hard plastic pots - does it make that big a difference? Could one put 2 plants per pot?

I've looked into making lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus) - it's cheap and looks easy to make, so I'll try myself at that. Here's the article I've read - https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/sa-8.pdf - I started a batch by rincing rice... see what happens.

That lead to being exposed to bokashi composting... So once you have the EM culture, you mix 1/4 cup EM, 1/4 cup molasses into 3-4 gallons of water, then into oat bran until moist but not clumpy. Can air dry in the sun for longer preservation (years), or use right away (store in dark room, anaerobic conditions, use within 3-4 months or if starts to smell bad (should smell like soft pickle/vinegar)). You make a bokashi composting bin by drilling hole in the bottom of a 5 gal., which you insert in another 5 gal., to collect the juices every few days before it goes bad - you can mix 1:1000 with water (no chlorine/chloramine), for soil application - not for use on foliage. To start composting, add a bit of innoculated bran at the bottom of the bin, where the holes are, then add your compost in 4" layers, compress to remove air (needs anaerobic conditions), then sprinkle a layer of inoculated bran, repeat... It even does meats, fish and breads - no rot or mould, however. Once the bin is full, let sit 30 days and bam! Compost.

Would complement the worm bin very well IMO.

I heard from other posts also, that pro-tekt is worth going for, so I'll get that. And comfrey seeds.

In terms of nutrients... kelp, alfalfa, crab, neem, shrimp ....?

greasemonkeymann said:

yea, i know, I've seen them, i just don't like fabrics for inside, i gotta move shit around too much
they do kickass for outdoor grows though, and the big ones are badass for storing and keeping castings or compost fresh and live

Click to expand...

Yup, square plastic FTW, inside and outside for me. If you need to move stuff, the fabric pots just fuck up the soil structure too much. Push it out of shape, compact it, whatever.

Does great in larger sizes that don't get moved and watered with Blumats, the way nurserys utilize them for tree saplings, but just doesn't seem to translate as well to the smaller sizes.

IDK, but *I* think many are enamored with the term 'smartie' whether they actually work well for them or not.

greasemonkeymann said:

yea, i know, I've seen them, i just don't like fabrics for inside, i gotta move shit around too much
they do kickass for outdoor grows though, and the big ones are badass for storing and keeping castings or compost fresh and live

Click to expand...

They work great indoors




You can get them cheap at www.247garden.com

REALSTYLES said:

They work great indoors

View attachment 3926221
View attachment 3926222

You can get them cheap at www.247garden.com

Click to expand...

Ah, the resident LED guru
whats up man

beautiful plants my man

fabric pots do work well when they are not disturbed, but i move mine around a whole bunch, and they just don't fit as well as the plastic ones do, also worth mentioning if you like to maximize space, considering that cannabis sorta lends itself well to a square "footprint" being that they easily make a symmetrical match to that.
so if you have a square container footprint of 10x10" it's easy to match that with the canopy, typically that's a two-top method providing four even colas.
So in small spaces like mine it lends itself well to maximize the colas per sq ft.
which is what i go for.
but hell yea man, fabric work well, in fact for outside they are almost crucial.
they'll blow plastic containers out of the water for growth, not to mention plastics degrade pretty fast out in the bright sunlight, makes the plastic brittle in about two yrs

greasemonkeymann said:

Ah, the resident LED guru
whats up man

beautiful plants my man

fabric pots do work well when they are not disturbed, but i move mine around a whole bunch, and they just don't fit as well as the plastic ones do, also worth mentioning if you like to maximize space, considering that cannabis sorta lends itself well to a square "footprint" being that they easily make a symmetrical match to that.
so if you have a square container footprint of 10x10" it's easy to match that with the canopy, typically that's a two-top method providing four even colas.
So in small spaces like mine it lends itself well to maximize the colas per sq ft.
which is what i go for.
but hell yea man, fabric work well, in fact for outside they are almost crucial.
they'll blow plastic containers out of the water for growth, not to mention plastics degrade pretty fast out in the bright sunlight, makes the plastic brittle in about two yrs

Click to expand...

Those pots from www.247garden.com are great quality and great price. I'm learning KNF(Korean Natural Farming) techniques and so far so good.

blunt_tip said:

Thanks for steering me in some form of direction.

I have access to 25 gal. hard plastic pots - does it make that big a difference? Could one put 2 plants per pot?

I've looked into making lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus) - it's cheap and looks easy to make, so I'll try myself at that. Here's the article I've read - https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/sa-8.pdf - I started a batch by rincing rice... see what happens.

That lead to being exposed to bokashi composting... So once you have the EM culture, you mix 1/4 cup EM, 1/4 cup molasses into 3-4 gallons of water, then into oat bran until moist but not clumpy. Can air dry in the sun for longer preservation (years), or use right away (store in dark room, anaerobic conditions, use within 3-4 months or if starts to smell bad (should smell like soft pickle/vinegar)). You make a bokashi composting bin by drilling hole in the bottom of a 5 gal., which you insert in another 5 gal., to collect the juices every few days before it goes bad - you can mix 1:1000 with water (no chlorine/chloramine), for soil application - not for use on foliage. To start composting, add a bit of innoculated bran at the bottom of the bin, where the holes are, then add your compost in 4" layers, compress to remove air (needs anaerobic conditions), then sprinkle a layer of inoculated bran, repeat... It even does meats, fish and breads - no rot or mould, however. Once the bin is full, let sit 30 days and bam! Compost.

Would complement the worm bin very well IMO.

I heard from other posts also, that pro-tekt is worth going for, so I'll get that. And comfrey seeds.

In terms of nutrients... kelp, alfalfa, crab, neem, shrimp ....?

Click to expand...

depending on your goals you won't need anything that big as far as containers go.
not inside anyways.
an eight gallon plant will be enough for a standard grow, provided it's transplanted like a good 20-30 days prior to flower, you want that at least beforehand.
but that's around a good 100 days or so in that 8 gallon, that's totally fine.
Well, assuming the soil is assembled correctly.
a 25 gallon could do two plants but i don't recommend that unless they are square containers and clones that are the same age.
and YES, get comfrey going and a bottle of pro-tekt.
i have both as well.
the comfrey is GOLD.

I don't do lacto teas or bokashi
not because they don't work, just because i don't really need to, and i sorta don't have enough time as it is.
That and my friggin compost goes fast enough as it is, i have enough compost for a looooong time now
I just don't do any teas anymore
i do like me a good two or three coco water teas though, get the whole foods one, crack it open and pour two coconuts worth in a 5 gallon bucket and add 4 gallons to it
a short-cut to a SST

greasemonkeymann said:

depending on your goals you won't need anything that big as far as containers go.
not inside anyways.
an eight gallon plant will be enough for a standard grow, provided it's transplanted like a good 20-30 days prior to flower, you want that at least beforehand.
but that's around a good 100 days or so in that 8 gallon, that's totally fine.
Well, assuming the soil is assembled correctly.
a 25 gallon could do two plants but i don't recommend that unless they are square containers and clones that are the same age.
and YES, get comfrey going and a bottle of pro-tekt.
i have both as well.
the comfrey is GOLD.

I don't do lacto teas or bokashi
not because they don't work, just because i don't really need to, and i sorta don't have enough time as it is.
That and my friggin compost goes fast enough as it is, i have enough compost for a looooong time now
I just don't do any teas anymore
i do like me a good two or three coco water teas though, get the whole foods one, crack it open and pour two coconuts worth in a 5 gallon bucket and add 4 gallons to it
a short-cut to a SST

Click to expand...

I wish I would've been doing any style organics 10 years ago lol

REALSTYLES said:

Those pots from www.247garden.com are great quality and great price. I'm learning KNF(Korean Natural Farming) techniques and so far so good.

Click to expand...

Those prices are really good , how is the thickness of those ? Also get a fabric pot elevator, helps dry more evenly.

REALSTYLES said:

I wish I would've been doing any style organics 10 years ago lol

Click to expand...

yea, i remember when i did my first compost based grow, and i was like blown away, wish i woulda learned that decades ago
my progression ,went like this regular growing from 89-97, bagged soil organics with quasi organic nutrients (throwing away soil, like a dumbshit) , 97-2005, full organics from 2005 to 2012, and compost based "natural" organics since 2012.
Fuck i woulda LOVED to have discovered worm bins and composting back in the 90s.