Starting from seeds in Japan

el forestero

el forestero

Member
I live in a remote area of Japan. My wish is to grow plants from seed to seedling stage indoors under LED lights and then plant the seedlings outdoors. The indoor growing area will be 25cm by 120cm.

There's a limited range of LED lighting I can order by mail. Japan doesn't have much of an industry of LED lighting engineered to grow plants because the weed market here is small and indoor agriculture hasn't caught on. Importing lighting from the West doesn't seem very practical because Japan uses a different household electrical current from the rest of the world, and international shipping fees are high.

These are the six kinds of lighting options available domestically that seem like they might work out:

1. T8-form (4-foot-long) LED bulbs of 4200 to 5000 lumens, 140 to 160 lumens/watt, 30 to 36 watts, 5000K or 6000K for US$31 each. These are being sold as home or shop lighting, not for growing plants, so their PAR and PPFD aren't documented.

2. T8-form LED bulbs of 1100 lumens, 10 watts, 6000K for US$11 each. Not marketed as plant grow lights, so no data on PAR or PPFD.

3. 50W spotlights of 56 PAR, not marketed as plant grow lights, for US$63 each.

4. 15W spotlights, 38 PAR, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are rated at 68 PPFD. They have a blue to red LED ratio of 1:4 which doesn't strike me as particularly suitable for seedlings.

5. 25W spotlights, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. No details on PAR or PPFD. They contain 78 red and 24 blue LEDs and claim 4000 lumens.

6. Large banks of red and blue LED lights marketed as plant grow lights. These are also being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. They claim to be using up to 240 LED chips of 10W each to give 420 total watts and 14,000 lumens, but offer no data on PAR or PPFD.

As with option #5 above, the seller in China doesn't speak English or Japanese well enough to provide more details, so it's hard to tell if these are quality grow lights, but I'd guess they're not. At US$315 per unit these seem like a big gamble.

Here are my questions:

A. Would any of the above lighting options work in some configuration to grow healthy plants from seed to seedling stage in my 25cm by 120cm indoor space, and if so, which ones? Or are they all too weak to bother trying?

B. If it could work out, how many bulbs would I need for my 25 x 120cm growing area?

C. How far should lights like this be from seedlings?

D. If I go with the T8-form bulbs, is it better to get the 5000K or 6000K, or does it not matter much?

Thanks!
 
raggyb

raggyb

Well-Known Member
I don't have any idea, and I can't wait to see what the experts say. But I'll guess. My guess would be the first T8 6000K with the slightly higher power. One reason would be the 4 feet would fit pretty well in your 120cm space and you could line up a whole bunch of seedlings along there. But I want to ask are you sure you only want to get them to seedling and don't want to get them a little bigger before you move them outside? If you want to get some size I think you might want one that runs at least 4 bulbs. Hope someone with actual knowledge about these choices chimes in though.
 
el forestero

el forestero

Member
Same guess here, the higher-powered T8s. I was thinking of running two to four bulbs, side by side. But I want to hear from the experts too.

Sure, I could see growing them beyond seedling stage before planting them outdoors if that'd work out best.

Tx for the ideas.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Hey @el forester , Nice one on the grow plans! First person I can think of from Japan.

LEDs do not need to be specifically for plant growth, in fact the ones that claim to be so are not very good.
What you want is white light which is readily available in LEDs like COBs or Samsung strips or boards.
You have at least one good manufacturer of COBs, Citizen make great ones. I know there are some others too but I cant spell them :bigjoint:
What you want to do is look into making your own like in this video.

That's just one part of a 7 part guide, but look at his vids to see the lights he built.

You can also check out http://ledgardener.com/

Forget about red and blue diodes, just go with white, which is nearly a full spectrum. Much better for growing.
If your only going to veg indoors then go for something around 4000kelvin
You wont need much wattage for that small space.

There is also nothing wrong with using T5s or T8s but some good LED strips, boards or COBs will be much more efficient.

For cost, simplicity and performance I would go with a small version of something like this...
http://ledgardener.com/samsung-lm561c-build-getting-started/
 
gjs4786

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Any particular reason you are limiting yourself to LEDs? Shop light fluorescent lights would work fine to go from seed to seedling. Hey, it's your call! I am just curious as to why you decided on LEDs and seem to be pretty set on it. I'm surprised that there isn't much of an option for LEDs in Japan. i read that they were planning on phasing out fluorescents by 2020. LED industry should be booming there. In any case, if you're just growing them to seedling and then under the HID in the sky, then 100 dollar light versus 1000 dollar light wouldn't be as much of an issue. That's just me though.
 
Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
I live in a remote area of Japan. My wish is to grow plants from seed to seedling stage indoors under LED lights and then plant the seedlings outdoors. The indoor growing area will be 25cm by 120cm.

There's a limited range of LED lighting I can order by mail. Japan doesn't have much of an industry of LED lighting engineered to grow plants because the weed market here is small and indoor agriculture hasn't caught on. Importing lighting from the West doesn't seem very practical because Japan uses a different household electrical current from the rest of the world, and international shipping fees are high.

These are the six kinds of lighting options available domestically that seem like they might work out:

1. T8-form (4-foot-long) LED bulbs of 4200 to 5000 lumens, 140 to 160 lumens/watt, 30 to 36 watts, 5000K or 6000K for US$31 each. These are being sold as home or shop lighting, not for growing plants, so their PAR and PPFD aren't documented.

2. T8-form LED bulbs of 1100 lumens, 10 watts, 6000K for US$11 each. Not marketed as plant grow lights, so no data on PAR or PPFD.

3. 50W spotlights of 56 PAR, not marketed as plant grow lights, for US$63 each.

4. 15W spotlights, 38 PAR, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are rated at 68 PPFD. They have a blue to red LED ratio of 1:4 which doesn't strike me as particularly suitable for seedlings.

5. 25W spotlights, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. No details on PAR or PPFD. They contain 78 red and 24 blue LEDs and claim 4000 lumens.

6. Large banks of red and blue LED lights marketed as plant grow lights. These are also being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. They claim to be using up to 240 LED chips of 10W each to give 420 total watts and 14,000 lumens, but offer no data on PAR or PPFD.

As with option #5 above, the seller in China doesn't speak English or Japanese well enough to provide more details, so it's hard to tell if these are quality grow lights, but I'd guess they're not. At US$315 per unit these seem like a big gamble.

Here are my questions:

A. Would any of the above lighting options work in some configuration to grow healthy plants from seed to seedling stage in my 25cm by 120cm indoor space, and if so, which ones? Or are they all too weak to bother trying?

B. If it could work out, how many bulbs would I need for my 25 x 120cm growing area?

C. How far should lights like this be from seedlings?

D. If I go with the T8-form bulbs, is it better to get the 5000K or 6000K, or does it not matter much?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Arrow or digikey also ships to Japan!
https://www.digikey.jp/
Search by part-numbers!

This means you have access to efficient strips such as Samsung's F-Series or Bridgelux EB Series gen.2.
Such an 4ft. F-stripe is eg. comparable to two T5's and delivers 9000lm. Both strips are really efficient with up to 175lm/w.
This is what you want!

4ft. EB-Series, gen.2, 3.500°k
https://www.digikey.jp/products/ja?keywords=BXEB-L1120Z-35E4000-C-B3

4ft. F-Series, 4.000°k
https://www.digikey.jp/products/ja?keywords=SI-B8T521B20WW
 
Last edited:
gjs4786

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
For germination and seedlings you'd need only one F- or or two EB- strips and the 4ft.length fits perfect in your area.
Click to expand...
Why would it have to be LED, though, just for seedling transplants? I feel like I'm missing out on some knowledge.
 
el forestero

el forestero

Member
coreywebster and Randomblame: Thanks for the advice on the DIY route with LED strips. Looks like the way to go. The strips you suggested are 3500 to 4000K. I read somewhere that 6000K is better for growing because it contains the full spectrum of sunlight, so I'm curious why you recommend these LEDs with lower color temperatures instead of ones with 6000K. Are the higher temps not really necessary for weed or for plants in general?

I was surprised to see Digikey has free shipping to Japan for orders over $60. And the LED strips are so affordable I'm thinking about doubling my grow area. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do about how to build a lighting setup with LED strips, but in the meantime, any advice you could give me about which drivers would work well for a setup with 1 or 2 F series or 2 or 4 EB series would be much appreciated.

gjs4786: Why LEDs? The short answer is you get more light for less $. The larger up-front investment in LEDs should pay for itself with better plant growth. The more I can grow at home, the less I'll have to buy at Japan's terrible prices. But as you say, plants will grow under flourescent bulbs too, and they might be a solid option if I didn't want to DIY.
 
Olive Drab Green

Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
I live in a remote area of Japan. My wish is to grow plants from seed to seedling stage indoors under LED lights and then plant the seedlings outdoors. The indoor growing area will be 25cm by 120cm.

There's a limited range of LED lighting I can order by mail. Japan doesn't have much of an industry of LED lighting engineered to grow plants because the weed market here is small and indoor agriculture hasn't caught on. Importing lighting from the West doesn't seem very practical because Japan uses a different household electrical current from the rest of the world, and international shipping fees are high.

These are the six kinds of lighting options available domestically that seem like they might work out:

1. T8-form (4-foot-long) LED bulbs of 4200 to 5000 lumens, 140 to 160 lumens/watt, 30 to 36 watts, 5000K or 6000K for US$31 each. These are being sold as home or shop lighting, not for growing plants, so their PAR and PPFD aren't documented.

2. T8-form LED bulbs of 1100 lumens, 10 watts, 6000K for US$11 each. Not marketed as plant grow lights, so no data on PAR or PPFD.

3. 50W spotlights of 56 PAR, not marketed as plant grow lights, for US$63 each.

4. 15W spotlights, 38 PAR, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are rated at 68 PPFD. They have a blue to red LED ratio of 1:4 which doesn't strike me as particularly suitable for seedlings.

5. 25W spotlights, marketed as plant grow lights, for US$28 each. These are being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. No details on PAR or PPFD. They contain 78 red and 24 blue LEDs and claim 4000 lumens.

6. Large banks of red and blue LED lights marketed as plant grow lights. These are also being marketed as if the seller and their target audience don't know much about grow lights. They claim to be using up to 240 LED chips of 10W each to give 420 total watts and 14,000 lumens, but offer no data on PAR or PPFD.

As with option #5 above, the seller in China doesn't speak English or Japanese well enough to provide more details, so it's hard to tell if these are quality grow lights, but I'd guess they're not. At US$315 per unit these seem like a big gamble.

Here are my questions:

A. Would any of the above lighting options work in some configuration to grow healthy plants from seed to seedling stage in my 25cm by 120cm indoor space, and if so, which ones? Or are they all too weak to bother trying?

B. If it could work out, how many bulbs would I need for my 25 x 120cm growing area?

C. How far should lights like this be from seedlings?

D. If I go with the T8-form bulbs, is it better to get the 5000K or 6000K, or does it not matter much?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Pretty sure Citizen COBs are a Japanese product. You should make a COB panel. Although, be careful. I remember Japan being relatively free of drugs, and I remember customs giving me serious shit about bringing Adderall into the country via Narita Airport. I hope they aren’t like China or Southeast Asia, where they will execute you if you’re caught.
 
gjs4786

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
gjs4786: Why LEDs? The short answer is you get more light for less $. The larger up-front investment in LEDs should pay for itself with better plant growth. The more I can grow at home, the less I'll have to buy at Japan's terrible prices. But as you say, plants will grow under flourescent bulbs too, and they might be a solid option if I didn't want to DIY.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I feel better now that you have explained that to me. You could grow with a 1000watt HPS though and still make a killing. Not saying that'd be feasible in Japan, or advisable. Just feels like the small overall gains are completely negligible when it comes down to the fact that you are getting free bud in the end and more than likely you aren't going to just be giving away your extra. So what's an extra 5 bucks a month in electricity, if even 5 bucks?
 
el forestero

el forestero

Member
Definitely food for thought, gjs4786. I'll have a look at some of the youtube vids comparing growth by flourescents and DIY LED setups and see if it's really worth it.

Olive Drab Green: Yeah, they treat weed like hard drugs in Japan. But if you're caught they'll lock you up with their mostly-geriatric prison population, not execute you. Fortunately police presence is extremely light in my neck of the woods and I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the area who has any idea what weed looks and smells like.
 
raggyb

raggyb

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
coreywebster and Randomblame: Thanks for the advice on the DIY route with LED strips. Looks like the way to go. The strips you suggested are 3500 to 4000K. I read somewhere that 6000K is better for growing because it contains the full spectrum of sunlight, so I'm curious why you recommend these LEDs with lower color temperatures instead of ones with 6000K. Are the higher temps not really necessary for weed or for plants in general?
Click to expand...
I'm wondering the same thing. I took a note from another thread that said use 6500 for veg and 2700 for flower. Not sure what I misunderstood. At the time I was just buying one cfl to start seeds in a dome. The more common cfls were like 3-4000k.

Oh maybe the @ sign to get these two's attention - @coreywebster @Randomblame? You got your ears on good buddies?
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
raggyb said:
I'm wondering the same thing. I took a note from another thread that said use 6500 for veg and 2700 for flower. Not sure what I misunderstood. At the time I was just buying one cfl to start seeds in a dome. The more common cfls were like 3-4000k.

Oh maybe the @ sign to get these two's attention - @coreywebster @Randomblame? You got your ears on good buddies?
Click to expand...
2700k and 6500k are more to do with fluorescents like t5s or cfl, its what folk found best instead of using HPS/MH to provide the amount of red they wanted for flower or the amount of blue to stop stretchy plants in veg.
But with a fuller spectrum like with the type of leds we are using we are getting far more red, blue and everything in between than what those type of lights offered in those kelvin ranges.
Plus there is the McCree action spectrum to consider.

Lets check out a few spectral charts.








The last chart is a selection of cobs.
As well as been about hitting certain wavelengths its also about quantity of photons, you can see with a broad spectrum led compared to cfl there is a massive amount of difference in the amount of photons been delivered.
You will have to forgive me just copy pasting a few spectral charts, I'm probably one of the worst guys to be able to explain any of this.
Look into the McCree action spectrum and if you can be bothered have a search on RIU for any of stardustsailors post.
 
Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
coreywebster and Randomblame: Thanks for the advice on the DIY route with LED strips. Looks like the way to go. The strips you suggested are 3500 to 4000K. I read somewhere that 6000K is better for growing because it contains the full spectrum of sunlight, so I'm curious why you recommend these LEDs with lower color temperatures instead of ones with 6000K. Are the higher temps not really necessary for weed or for plants in general?

I was surprised to see Digikey has free shipping to Japan for orders over $60. And the LED strips are so affordable I'm thinking about doubling my grow area. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do about how to build a lighting setup with LED strips, but in the meantime, any advice you could give me about which drivers would work well for a setup with 1 or 2 F series or 2 or 4 EB series would be much appreciated.

gjs4786: Why LEDs? The short answer is you get more light for less $. The larger up-front investment in LEDs should pay for itself with better plant growth. The more I can grow at home, the less I'll have to buy at Japan's terrible prices. But as you say, plants will grow under flourescent bulbs too, and they might be a solid option if I didn't want to DIY.
Click to expand...

I'm using warmwhite(3500°k) for vegging since a long time with good results, actually from the beginning. Plants looks a lot more "natural", while with 5000-6500°k they get extremely tightly stacked nodes, which looks rather "unnatural" IMO. You really don't need more than 1w pure blue per sft. to get nicely stacked nodes. That means you could get good results even with 2700°K/CRI90 if you use around 10W per square foot for vegging. You can of course use coolwhite spectrums if you prefer ultra compact growth. You could do a side by side test using two different 10w LED bulbs(warm vs. cool white) and seedlings.
Since you plan to plant them outdoor anyway, ultra-compact growth could make sense because a short plant is more stable against wind and weather.
If you are worried about getting less branching with warm white light, I can reassure you. That's not the case. The blue component is high enough in all white LEDs.
 
Olive Drab Green

Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
I'm using warmwhite(3500°k) for vegging since a long time with good results, actually from the beginning. Plants looks a lot more "natural", while with 5000-6500°k they get extremely tightly stacked nodes, which looks rather "unnatural" IMO. You really don't need more than 1w pure blue per sft. to get nicely stacked nodes. That means you could get good results even with 2700°K/CRI90 if you use around 10W per square foot for vegging. You can of course use coolwhite spectrums if you prefer ultra compact growth. You could do a side by side test using two different 10w LED bulbs(warm vs. cool white) and seedlings.
Since you plan to plant them outdoor anyway, ultra-compact growth could make sense because a short plant is more stable against wind and weather.
If you are worried about getting less branching with warm white light, I can reassure you. That's not the case. The blue component is high enough in all white LEDs.
Click to expand...
3500k’s still pretty good at stacking nodes. I understand the more blue spectrum, the tighter. Not disagreeing with you—in fact, I am in full agreement—I was just saying, I use 3500k/90 CRI and get no stretch until bloom.
 
Kushash

Kushash

Well-Known Member
el forestero said:
Definitely food for thought, gjs4786. I'll have a look at some of the youtube vids comparing growth by flourescents and DIY LED setups and see if it's really worth it.

Olive Drab Green: Yeah, they treat weed like hard drugs in Japan. But if you're caught they'll lock you up with their mostly-geriatric prison population, not execute you. Fortunately police presence is extremely light in my neck of the woods and I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the area who has any idea what weed looks and smells like.
Click to expand...
Welcome to RIU fellow grower from Japan!
If you plan to take pictures be careful not to use a cell phone with the location turned on.
If you do use a cell phone make sure the location services are turned off or have that information removed.
In some cases it may be safer to not take pictures.
Look forward to hearing about your progress.
Happy Growing!
 
el forestero

el forestero

Member
Thanks for clearing that up about the color temps, folks. I live on an exposed hill overlooking the ocean with insane wind blowing probably half the days of the year. Tears small plants right out of the ground and knocks over big potted trees. In fact I'm up now at 2:30am due to a wind storm rattling the shutters and waking me up. So may consider the higher temps to get stockier plants. But it's reassuring to know the lower temps should be fine for normal growth.

Tx for the good advice on taking pics, Kushash.
 
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