Stop blaming "issues" on pH people! aka "ah cant take no mo'!

I won't call it "experiments" but comparing my soil grows with and without PH adjusting I could NOT agree more with Uncle Ben. My previous run, organics, not a drop Ph - or + and haven't measured soil or water even once. Best run ever, by far, in every way ( healthy plants throughout the cycle and my best yield). Actually not needing to adjust PH made it so boring I switched to hydro Adjusting pH is a great way for beginners to kill their plants.

Some nutes completely fuck up the PH though, but unless you have problems adjusting it is not nearly as important as for example proper watering.

Don't adjust the pH for one pot but measure the pH of the soil throughout the cycle - somehow it manages fine all by itself.

Uncle Ben said:

BUT........if you're growing in soil, this pH water adjustment biz is irrelevant as soil has a powerful buffering effect.

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Just quoting this for the sake of repeating it.

Uncle Ben said:

[Adjusting PH on soil is] another common noob practice based on a never ending make-work cannabis forum paradigm parroted by folks that are driven by feelings rather than facts and/or experience.

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And this might just work more convincing than my previous sig.

Uncle Ben said:

I see it all the time, the first thing out of an in-experienced's grower's mouth is "have you checked the pH?" when it comes to a plant problem.
UB

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When a problem occurs an EXPERIENCED grower STARTS with Ph! You can not solve any problems if you not in the correct range, wether in soil or hydro. Soil growers have an easier time at keeping that balance but it should not be discounted when issues crop up. Many types of micro organisims alter Ph so an imbalance can and does happen in soil all the time.

Not asking that question FIRST show your experience level, Ph imbalance of some kind is the root of all issues not human or genetic.

Sir.Ganga said:

When a problem occurs an EXPERIENCED grower STARTS with Ph! You can not solve any problems if you not in the correct range, wether in soil or hydro. Soil growers have an easier time at keeping that balance but it should not be discounted when issues crop up. Many types of micro organisims alter Ph so an imbalance can and does happen in soil all the time.

Not asking that question FIRST show your experience level, Ph imbalance of some kind is the root of all issues not human or genetic.

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YOU are always assbackwards and just have to disagree. A REAL grower isn't going to have issues if he is experienced. second if a problem did arise, A REAL grower would read his plants and know the problem. ONLY noobs who use advanced Nutes have to play with P.H and watch out for P.H problems.
I Never see Guerilla growers carrying bottles of advance nutes and p.h meters out to there trees in the mountains.

what's a pH?

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Kriegs said:

The other problem with pH is that very, very few people have the equipment or wet laboratory skills to measure pH correctly. In hydro, you can achieve "good enough" with common sense and basic meters. But soil pH is an entirely different ballgame.

Why? Because hydrogen ions attach to soil particles and cannot be removed by simply passing water over the soil (the "runoff method" you so commonly see on RIU, and which I once believed in myself, I admit..). Measuring soil pH requires a calcium chloride extraction to bump those hydrogen ions off the soil into solution, where they can be measured.

The other problem I have is with the cheap meters in common use. A lot of these things are total pieces of crap, and quality varies extensively even within the same model. A lot of the one-point calibration meters drift like crazy, meaning they need to be calibrated before every individual reading.

And all chemical monitoring is totally dependent on good quality control -- properly cleaned equipment, 3X rinses with distilled water, clean vessels made of the right materials -- you rarely see these details affirmed in someone's pH post.

For all these reasons, when people come out and say "my pH is XYZ...", it just doesn't mean a thing to me.

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I have plum given up trying to explain to growers experienced, or not, that dipping their probes in the soil's runoff is telling them nothing. Or posibly the wrong thing. "So you know the ph of the salts and run through, of composted material" ." But what is the Ph of the wet soil that surround your roots?" I ask, "The same as the runnoff", They reply. When you try to explain, that what the plant is feeding on is not the same ph as what runs out the bottom. You get a thousand reply's back about, 'how big of an Idiot you are that testing the runnoff is the tried and true way of testing ph in soil." Well I'll say it again. "Those people are wrong." This is what you need to have at a bare min, to do the lab work on soil.
I purchased this one years ago when I was at CAl- Poly. I used it all day long in the field. My education is in soil composition and rebuilding.
Test your soil Before you plant in it. Adjust it, then plant. Then adjust your feed program before adding, if you want that soil to remain within your strains tolerance. There are times during the bloom process, where swinging your ph is not evil. Do we not bump our pk level during the last weeks of bloom? What do you think is happening when we do this? We are manipulating the soil to achieve harder denser buds.

Sir.Ganga said:

When a problem occurs an EXPERIENCED grower STARTS with Ph! You can not solve any problems if you not in the correct range, wether in soil or hydro. Soil growers have an easier time at keeping that balance but it should not be discounted when issues crop up. Many types of micro organisims alter Ph so an imbalance can and does happen in soil all the time.

Not asking that question FIRST show your experience level, Ph imbalance of some kind is the root of all issues not human or genetic.

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sorry thats backwards. An experienced grower knows enough about the soil they are going to grow in BEFORE the grow starts and takes corrective action before planting. That means knowing if pH is gonna be a problem or not and the effect that the fertilizers they are going to have. When I grow outdoors in soil I never have pH issues, because I do my homework first and understand the soil I'm growing in.

What's this "EXPERIENCED grower" shit?

Sir.Ganga said:

When a problem occurs an EXPERIENCED grower STARTS with Ph! You can not solve any problems if you not in the correct range, wether in soil or hydro. Soil growers have an easier time at keeping that balance but it should not be discounted when issues crop up. Many types of micro organisims alter Ph so an imbalance can and does happen in soil all the time.

Not asking that question FIRST show your experience level, Ph imbalance of some kind is the root of all issues not human or genetic.

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This is another fine example of you constantly talking out your ass, as in "ass backwards".

The question is asked after understanding what materials you're starting out with and how it adds up regarding the sum of the parts. That's the bottom line.

Micro-organisms have little impact on soil pH values.

Me thinks you and your micro orgasmic friends have been hitting the hydrolated kool aid.

UB

Since it's been brought up, I'll detail the proper way to measure a soil mix's pH. Dump your soil sample into a clean jar (means washed and rinsed in distilled water), add de-ionized lab grade water, any amount will do - 1 or 4 parts, doesn't matter.....shake well, let settle and stick your probe in.

Needless to say, calibrate your meter with fresh 4.01 and 7.00 calibration solution before the test.

UB

melungeonman said:

Do we not bump our pk level during the last weeks of bloom? What do you think is happening when we do this? We are manipulating the soil to achieve harder denser buds.

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Ahhhhhhhhh, no "we" don't. This after decades of experimenting. I do whatever it takes to keep the leaves healthy and green, and a low N bloom food will work against you. It doesn't bulk up shit. Most have to learn this lesson the hard way.

UB

I've been gardening for decades and it wasn't until I started reading MJ forums that I've seen so much fuss about pH.

This is the result of years of organic growing in soil. I like to adjust my pk somewhat in the last couple of weeks of bloom. I never forget to keep providing the plant with n to keep the plant greened up. I don't like to achieve a pale washed out effect. Most in fact in last couple of weeks take on many colors. This can also be manipulated by the use of aminos. The plus side of this in side by side comparison is , I get a tighter heavier product. Also at this point I no longer adjust anything. Ph wise. MY bloom solution during these two weeks of bloom are 5.0-6.0, Pretty sour. Can't say they have ever hurt my feelings.

So, to sum things up:

Fuck the pH of your water.

Know your soil/fert pH before planting.

And that's as far as I should go for the whole pH thing?



You say a solid 1-1-1 is a good way to go, what about a 5-5-5? (happy frog all-purpose in my case)

I followed jack harer's journal post about testing my soil's pH (https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog17764-ph-your-tap-water-soil.html), reliable?

1-1-1 is the same as 5-5-5, as in there is an equal amount of each. (ratio, not %, unless it specifically says so of course)

All I'll say you have to start with the right soil and make sure your water isn't some wacko extreme chit.

http://mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/foliage/resrpts/rh_96_2.htm

For anyone who wants a read....

Uncle Ben said:

Ahhhhhhhhh, no "we" don't. This after decades of experimenting. I do whatever it takes to keep the leaves healthy and green, and a low N bloom food will work against you. It doesn't bulk up shit. Most have to learn this lesson the hard way.

UB

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Ill admit I recently learned this the hard way... lol My girls were turning yellow in the last three weeks of flower. My super soil ran out of gas. I had some organic fertilizer
but decided I would try to let her use up the stored nutrient in the fan leaves.(due to reading countless threads on this improving the smoke) I noticed that the ash was a little whiter than my healthy till the end plants. But I suffered on the yield. I didn’t get as much as I did when I let them feed till the last week before harvest. It really diddnt evean look right to me seeing the plant eat itself up to grow. my 2 cents

Here you go, enjoy:

• What Is Alkalinity?
  
  Alkalinity is a total measure of the substances in water that have “acid-neutralizing” ability. You can think of alkalinity as the buffering capacity of water and such as how much lime is in the water. Alkalinity is attributed mostly to the amount of calcium and magnesium carbonates and bicarbonates, which are major components of limestone that is dissolved in that solution. Alkalinity should not be confused with pH. While this pH of a solution is the concentration of hydrogen ions in it and measures the strength of an acid or a base, the alkalinity reflects the power of the solution to react with acid and keep the solution pH from changing. The alkalinity, then, indicates how well a solution is buffered. While alkalinity sounds very much like alkaline, keep in mind that they are not the same thing; alkaline is a term applied to solutions with a pH higher than 7.0.
  The alkalinity level has far-reaching implications because high alkalinity has a strong effect on the substrate pH. Of two water sources, one with a pH of 9.0 and alkalinity of 50, and the other with a pH of 7.0 and alkalinity of 300, the former will raise substrate pH very little, while the latter will cause a much higher raise in the substrate pH. In general, water alkalinity is more important in determining effects on substrate pH than the actual pH of water.
  Because bicarbonates and carbonates and are the major components of water alkalinity, most laboratories equate Total Carbonates [TC = carbonates (CO[SUB]3[/SUB][SUP]2-[/SUP]) plus bicarbonates (HCO[SUB]3[/SUB]&#8254] with alkalinity. Other laboratories assume that bicarbonates are the sole contributors to alkalinity.
  Alkalinity may be expressed as parts per million (ppm), milligrams per liter (mg/L), or milliequivalents per liter (meq/L) of equivalent calcium bicarbonate or carbonate alone. Various sources prefer to use one or other of these units, and unless you are familiar with the conversion factors, it could be rather confusing. The following is the conversion from one unit of measurement into another:
  50 ppm CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB] = 50 mg/L CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB] = 1 meq/L CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB] = 61 ppm HCO[SUB]3[/SUB]- = 61 mg/L HCO[SUB]3[/SUB]- = 1 meq/L HCO[SUB]3[/SUB]-
  In the aquifer, water comes in contact with the rocks and dissolves some of the component minerals. The longer the duration of contact, the more minerals are dissolved (this is why after prolonged periods of drought the alkalinity of a well may rise and the opposite may occur during rainy periods). When the calcium and magnesium carbonates and the calcium and magnesium bicarbonates are dissolved, they dissociate into calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), carbonate, and bicarbonate ions:
  Ca[SUP]2+[/SUP] + Mg[SUP]2+[/SUP] + HCO[SUB]3[/SUB]‾ + CO[SUB]3[/SUB][SUP]2-[/SUP]
  The substrate pH rises because the carbonate and bicarbonate ions react with the substrate acidity (H[SUP]+[/SUP]) to form carbonic acid, which in turn converts to water and carbon dioxide.
  HCO[SUP]3[/SUP]‾ + H[SUP]+[/SUP] → H[SUB]2[/SUB]CO[SUB]3[/SUB] →_H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + CO[SUB]2[/SUB], and CO[SUB]3[/SUB][SUP]2[/SUP]- + 2H[SUP]+[/SUP] →
  H[SUB]2[/SUB]CO[SUB]3[/SUB] → H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + CO[SUB]2[/SUB]
  In these reactions, the acidity (H[SUP]+[/SUP]) and the carbonates and bicarbonates are consumed. The loss of hydrogen ions in the substrate results in a higher pH level. This is the mechanism through which alkalinity in the water increases substrate pH.
  
  source: Argo, W.R., and P.R. Fischer. 2002. Understanding pH Management for container-grown crops. Meister Publishing. pp. 64.
  
  
  Why do I bring this up? Because almost all MUNICIPAL TAP water sources are not even close to having a high alkalinity reading, NO MATTER WHAT THE pH of thre water is.
  
  
  
  

  • When it comes to managing the pH of a substrate, the alkalinity concentration has a much greater effect than does water pH. Alkalinity (calcium bicarbonate, magnesium bicarbonate, and sodium bicarbonate) and limestone (calcium and magnesium carbonate) react very similarly when added to a substrate. And just like too much limestone, the use of irrigation water containing high levels of alkalinity can cause the pH of the substrate to increase above acceptable levels for healthy plant growth.
    
    [..]
    
    Alkalinity is a measure of how much acid it takes to lower the pH below a certain level, also called \ acid-buffering capacity. Alkalinity is usually measured with a test kit where dilute acid is added until a color change occurs at a specific pH. Alkalinity is not a specific ion, but rather includes the concentration of several ions that affect acid-buffering capacity. Under most conditions, the ions that have the greatest effect on alkalinity are bicarbonates like calcium, magnesium, or sodium bicarbonate and, to a lesser extent, carbonates like calcium or sodium. Several other ions including hydroxides, phosphates, ammonium, silicates, sulfides, borates, and arsenate also can contribute to alkalinity, but their concentration is usually so low that they can be ignored.
    
    SOURCE:Bill Argo, Ph.D. Blackmore Company, Tel: 800-874-8660, Int’l 734-483-8661, E-mail: [email protected]
    Originally printed in 2003 in the Journal of the International Phalaenopsis Alliance, Vol. 13 (1).
    
    
    
    ​
    
    
    
    

  
  
  ​
  
  
  
  

Here is a nice graph showing exactly what I'm talking about here:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/hil/gif/acidification.gif

Sir.Ganga said:

When a problem occurs an EXPERIENCED grower STARTS with Ph! You can not solve any problems if you not in the correct range, wether in soil or hydro. Soil growers have an easier time at keeping that balance but it should not be discounted when issues crop up. Many types of micro organisims alter Ph so an imbalance can and does happen in soil all the time.

Not asking that question FIRST show your experience level, Ph imbalance of some kind is the root of all issues not human or genetic.

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BULLSHIT. The biggest threat to changing a substrates pH is ALKALINITY, something most growers have zero clue of on pot forums. pH and ALKALINITY in your water source ARE NOT THE SAME THING.