Subcool, Mzjil, Ken Estes, Lawrence Ringo, DJ Short on breeding theory and techniques

GreenSanta said:

Why not? some of the greatest strains probably come from pollen chucking down in some basement creating very special clone only strains.

breeding (ˈbriːdɪŋ)n1. the process of bearing offspring; reproduction
2. (Genetics) the process of producing plants or animals by sexual reproduction
3. the result of good training, esp the knowledge of correct social behaviour; refinement: a man of breeding.
4. a person's line of descent: his breeding was suspect.
5. (Nuclear Physics) physics a process occurring in a nuclear reactor as a result of which more fissionable material is produced than is used up

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Pollen-chucking can yield outstanding results, but it's not breeding. Sure, we can split hairs on what 'breeding' actually is but I think it goes without saying that when one truly breeds and creates a STRAIN by isolating desirable traits that said STRAIN from seed should yield results that are more uniform than not. You don't get this stability/uniformity by crossing two hybrids. Any person who crosses f1 hybrids certainly has no place on a panel where Breeding Healthy Genetics is the topic.

homebrewer said:

Pollen-chucking can yield outstanding results, but it's not breeding. Sure, we can split hairs on what 'breeding' actually is but I think it goes without saying that when one truly breeds and creates a STRAIN by isolating desirable traits that said STRAIN from seed should yield results that are more uniform than not. You don't get this stability/uniformity by crossing two hybrids. Any person who crosses f1 hybrids certainly has no place on a panel where Breeding Healthy Genetics is the topic.

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Well I guess so long as the title was healthy and the word stable was never mentioned...

homebrewer said:

Pollen-chucking can yield outstanding results, but it's not breeding. Sure, we can split hairs on what 'breeding' actually is but I think it goes without saying that when one truly breeds and creates a STRAIN by isolating desirable traits that said STRAIN from seed should yield results that are more uniform than not. You don't get this stability/uniformity by crossing two hybrids. Any person who crosses f1 hybrids certainly has no place on a panel where Breeding Healthy Genetics is the topic.

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no sure if what you are saying is that Subcool should not have been up there but if thats the case i think you are wrong. He carefully select stellar moms (or is being given) and has already selected stellar dudes and the genetic offered is of the highest quality.

I am not saying I am a huge fan of everything he does but he makes great genetics available to the mass.

Now on a different topic, Id like to disagree with you because I personally think that even if you are pollen chucking, when you have been doing it for a while, you start to have a better sense for which females and which males to use and the idea behind your crosses are still there. Now where is the line between pollen chucking and actual breeding, do you need a thousand plants!!? NO . In my opinion anyone creating new varieties no matter how stable or great or shitty is actually breeding cannabis. Simple.

I also find a lot of the theories and breeding techniques that Sub has brought to the table to be useful. For example when picking a male, not choosing the first one to show sex nor the last one ...

GreenSanta said:

no sure if what you are saying is that Subcool should not have been up there but if thats the case i think you are wrong. He carefully select stellar moms (or is being given) and has already selected stellar dudes and the genetic offered is of the highest quality.

I am not saying I am a huge fan of everything he does but he makes great genetics available to the mass.

Now on a different topic, Id like to disagree with you because I personally think that even if you are pollen chucking, when you have been doing it for a while, you start to have a better sense for which females and which males to use and the idea behind your crosses are still there. Now where is the line between pollen chucking and actual breeding, do you need a thousand plants!!? NO . In my opinion anyone creating new varieties no matter how stable or great or shitty is actually breeding cannabis. Simple.

I also find a lot of the theories and breeding techniques that Sub has brought to the table to be useful. For example when picking a male, not choosing the first one to show sex nor the last one ...

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imvho, that fine line you're talking about comes in the form of stability, which we all know was never a hallmark of tga's gear.. taking a polyhybrid and crossing it with another polyhybrid and slapping a name on the out come if far from breeding, again, imvho.. if you take a ten pack of beans and get 5 very distinct looking plants out of 10, well, that's not the definition of true breeding. i think most people will admit that an f1 isn't really ideal for stability..

what home brewer was trying to say, not that i want to put words into his mouth, is that anyone can take two plants, slap some pollen on a female and get half way decent seeds, but it takes someone with a lot of knowledge, and willingness, to take an f1 and work the line looking to refine certain characteristics and create a stable strain..
an example of this would be let's say ak47 from serious.. you could probably crack 100 beans and get 90 very similar looking plants.. an ex. of the other way would be let's say plushberry.. i've heard of the pink pheno, the green pheno, the this pheno, the that pheno, it's simply all over the place.. this is not to say it's not good smoke, it's just not what a lot of people would consider stable, or good breeding practices is all..

Lawrence Ringo, What is his seed co.? I cant quite make it out what he says there. Soy hum or something? His cbd strains sound interesting.

My apologies, he was on google. Southern humbolt seed org.

racerboy71 said:

imvho, that fine line you're talking about comes in the form of stability, which we all know was never a hallmark of tga's gear.. taking a polyhybrid and crossing it with another polyhybrid and slapping a name on the out come if far from breeding, again, imvho.. if you take a ten pack of beans and get 5 very distinct looking plants out of 10, well, that's not the definition of true breeding. i think most people will admit that an f1 isn't really ideal for stability..

what home brewer was trying to say, not that i want to put words into his mouth, is that anyone can take two plants, slap some pollen on a female and get half way decent seeds, but it takes someone with a lot of knowledge, and willingness, to take an f1 and work the line looking to refine certain characteristics and create a stable strain..
an example of this would be let's say ak47 from serious.. you could probably crack 100 beans and get 90 very similar looking plants.. an ex. of the other way would be let's say plushberry.. i've heard of the pink pheno, the green pheno, the this pheno, the that pheno, it's simply all over the place.. this is not to say it's not good smoke, it's just not what a lot of people would consider stable, or good breeding practices is all..

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I guess its a matter of opinion, some growers will enjoy the variations and its not like they claim to sell stabilized hybrid. I also think you lose vigor and potency over time like by f6- f7 -f8 I think you are getting weaker than what your f1-2-3 were. I am no professional breeder and far from that but I have been reading a fair bit and a lot of the info out there is still fairly debatable thats why i think we should simply encourage talks like this one with sub djshort mz jill and ringo.

Also for myself I have always had luck with TGA and grew plants that were true to the description.

GreenSanta said:

no sure if what you are saying is that Subcool should not have been up there but if thats the case i think you are wrong. He carefully select stellar moms (or is being given) and has already selected stellar dudes and the genetic offered is of the highest quality.

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If you've ever read anything posted by Tom Hill, Chimera, or even DJ, you know Sub is out of his league in terms of his 'breeding practices' (or lack thereof I should say). I'll give Sub some credit, aside from the constant plugs, he was pretty humble on that panel. He's a good chucker. I chuck-pollen in a similar manner as he does, except I do it for that ONE stellar clone. I'll sift through herms, sloppy males, bad ratios, etc. to find my keeper which is ok because I don't sell seeds. This type of selection is basically the first step in an actual breeding project which is essentially where TGA stops their 'work'.

Now on a different topic, Id like to disagree with you because I personally think that even if you are pollen chucking, when you have been doing it for a while, you start to have a better sense for which females and which males to use and the idea behind your crosses are still there. Now where is the line between pollen chucking and actual breeding, do you need a thousand plants!!? NO . In my opinion anyone creating new varieties no matter how stable or great or shitty is actually breeding cannabis. Simple.

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I absolutely agree. The longer you're in the hobby, the more patterns you see in regards to which plants to use in your crosses.

Racerboy hit the nail on the head in regards to the line between chucking and breeding. Check out Tom Hills posts at IC. He'll blow your hair back with some of his breeding techniques. I usually can't get through one of his posts without googling some of the terms he uses.

I also find a lot of the theories and breeding techniques that Sub has brought to the table to be useful. For example when picking a male, not choosing the first one to show sex nor the last one ...

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Thank DJ for those notes as that's where Sub got his info, he gives DJ credit a few times during that 'breeding' discussion.

homebrewer said:

If you've ever read anything posted by Tom Hill, Chimera, or even DJ, you know Sub is out of his league in terms of his 'breeding practices' (or lack thereof I should say). I'll give Sub some credit, aside from the constant plugs, he was pretty humble on that panel. He's a good chucker. I chuck-pollen in a similar manner as he does, except I do it for that ONE stellar clone. I'll sift through herms, sloppy males, bad ratios, etc. to find my keeper which is ok because I don't sell seeds. This type of selection is basically the first step in an actual breeding project which is essentially where TGA stops their 'work'.



I absolutely agree. The longer you're in the hobby, the more patterns you see in regards to which plants to use in your crosses.

Racerboy hit the nail on the head in regards to the line between chucking and breeding. Check out Tom Hills posts at IC. He'll blow your hair back with some of his breeding techniques. I usually can't get through one of his posts without googling some of the terms he uses.



Thank DJ for those notes as that's where Sub got his info, he gives DJ credit a few times during that 'breeding' discussion.

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Cool thanks for the info! Basically all I was saying in my first post is that bashing them for being up there talking about breeding is silly at this point in the game ... we are so far back in the cannabis industry!! I quite enjoyed the video that is all!

What is tom hill seed company called or where can I get his seeds?

Also one more question though Sub has a lot of polyhybrid F1s, he must have some stabilized strain doesnt he? like the strains he has been selling for a long time or does he still use the original mom and dad and recreates F1s?

GreenSanta said:

Cool thanks for the info! Basically all I was saying in my first post is that bashing them for being up there talking about breeding is silly at this point in the game ... we are so far back in the cannabis industry!! I quite enjoyed the video that is all!

What is tom hill seed company called or where can I get his seeds?

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Tom Hill Seeds and you can find them at Seedboutique, seedbay, possibly some other places. You'll find a lot of people using his strains in their own crosses because he's created pure lines that breed true.

Also one more question though Sub has a lot of polyhybrid F1s, he must have some stabilized strain doesnt he? like the strains he has been selling for a long time or does he still use the original mom and dad and recreates F1s?

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Nothing is 'stabilized' in the sense that you can expect uniformity from seed pack to seed pack. I think they run with the idea that phenotype variation is a good thing and while it can be, variation is what I get in my own crosses. When I spend $$$, I want something more stable that I can 'breed' with. You may or may not know this but when you keep crossing crosses, plants get weak. Not necessarily in terms of vigor, but in terms of pest and disease resistance. In my crosses, I do the polyhybrid thing and I look for strong plants from breeders who work lines to add strength to my remedial attempts at creating something special.

F1s, when the parents are well chosen, are incredibly stable and predictable. It's just that F1 plants from some breeders look like a random mix of genetics.

True F1s are extremely stable. DJ was talking about how consistent his land race crosses were and how you he then created F2s to find interesting variations and then try to lock down those traits to create new strains.
I'm of the opinion that if I'm going to pay for something I should be able to read a reasonable description of it. As DJ stressed over and over we're looking for drug effects primarily. I want subtle variation plant to plant so that I can pick a winner based on my tastes but they should all be similar. I also would like to have some ideas of how the plant will grow if I'm paying money for it. I have no problem growing random crosses of dank plants, but I'm certainly not paying big bucks to do so.
I've only watched about half of it so far but I'm not finding it all that informative. There's a lot in growing that is really best learned from experience but there has been little talk about the stuff that can be learned through other means. I'd love to see a panel with some of the guys who actually understand plant genetics and breeding and know something about growing. Sub says he learned everything from DJ so he wasn't really bringing anything new to the table. His best points were about general growing and keeping a clean room. I'd love to see a panel like that with guys like Tom Hill and Chimera who actually know the academic stuff.

The rotating, multi spectrum light system DJ mentions sounds like it would solve lots of problems and tighten things up in general. I hope someone can get some units in production soon so I'll be able to afford 2nd or 3rd generation products.

BTW, ms jill seem no more or less qualified than subcool IMO.

PlantManBee said:

BTW, ms jill seem no more or less qualified than subcool IMO.

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sure, in a "suck your dick and gain your knowledge" sort of way.

^^^classy. misogynist much?

PlantManBee said:

The rotating, multi spectrum light system DJ mentions sounds like it would solve lots of problems and tighten things up in general. I hope someone can get some units in production soon so I'll be able to afford 2nd or 3rd generation products.

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http://www.greatlakesgardenwholesale.com/product_details.asp?pid=474
Saw this in a high times last year

Im not trying to be a d#%k but i started to cringe about 1/2 way thru the video every time mz jill would start talking.
Ringo, ive never heard of and doesnt seem like the most knowledgable breeder but he seemed like a good guy.
Not much info to be gained aside from a few little gems dropped by the man himself, DJ
I got a bit of a chub when he mentioned the. 11/13 light cycle showing phenos youd never see expressed with 12/12 and the theory he had on the
Trichs from different parts of the world.
...thats all i got to say about that

bf80255 said:

Im not trying to be a d#%k but i started to cringe about 1/2 way thru the video every time mz jill would start talking.
Ringo, ive never heard of and doesnt seem like the most knowledgable breeder but he seemed like a good guy.
Not much info to be gained aside from a few little gems dropped by the man himself, DJ
I got a bit of a chub when he mentioned the. 11/13 light cycle showing phenos youd never see expressed with 12/12 and the theory he had on the
Trichs from different parts of the world.
...thats all i got to say about that

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You did a great job of not being a dick. Just because MzJ seems lost, doesn't mean anyone needs to be an a-hole. It's like, civilization man

Anyway I agree on pretty much everything you say. I'm not going to shoot down any of these guys... people love their gear. Sub cool and mz j seem about equal in their knowledge and philosophy imo, but some would and do have issues with their practices as legitimate breeders. I think they give people what they want... and shape that want as well.

Yeah, DJ is the man. He thinks outside the box, but more importantly, it's not all theory. He produces the goods.

Subcool said my big issue himself. He makes seeds, he doesn't breed. He does do a lot of good things like test out his crosses to make sure they produce decent plants but the wild phenotypic variation is too much for my money.
My issue with MzJill and Ringo was more that they were too baked for them to be able to communicate effectively. I understand it's a cup and all but c'mon. Is being on point for two hours really that hard? Though I must admit I am curious about Ringo's gear if that's what he was smoking