The LED "Arms race".....

nfhiggs said:

Nice numbers corey!

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Cheers, I actually did the last bits last night, which I had left because it was larf. Turned out most of it was solid stuff so there may be a little more than what I quoted. Possibly as much as 39 oz when the last bit is dry, with probably 1oz of that been fluffy larf which I wont count. Will sort thorough it when ready and make sure I'm only reporting on dense buds. But no matter which way it goes its a personal record, the last lot that came from the cob side was 25oz and that was a record for me too so I'm literally chuffed to bits with this run. (Which is why I had to bring it up in the first place , I cant exactly go tell my neighbours or friends)

PSUAGRO. said:

They noticed a big issue with the led traffic signals in the northern states right away........ they don't generate enough heat to melt ice/ snow off themselves; oops......kinda important: )

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Ahhh, the ignoble beast of unintended consequences rears its ugly head!

I also feel, as of right now, for ME, that there are SO MANY options available , at times design ideas can become counterproductive to the end goal. I've been guilty of fruitless expenditures of brain power and time, over potentially unnoticeable gains. The war within... Its working great, so I should make it greater????

Okay at some level, it is legitimate, to strive to improve..... but it can get outta hand, especially for a new builder as I still consider myself...

Many of us have lights that are being surpassed by the latest gains in efficiency and cooling. They become a little obsolete all the time even though they are superior to anything other than the latest COB and board products. We may have hundreds or thousands of dollars of quality discreet diode panels or early COBs. These are for all practical purposes as efficient and powerful as ever but there will come a point for me at least when the benefits of the new quiet and powerful creations outweigh the costs of upgrading. Not there yet but reading the LED forum is dangerous!

Okay, so here's a discussion from 18mos ago(ish)….

How many of us are still running the same equipment we had at that point....
Dose not matter, if you have added additional, newer equipment, upgraded generations ect….
Are you (or someone else) STILL growing plants, with the components you had in SEP of 2017????

Not me. I started out with fluorescents back in the 70's....switched to MH in the 80's....switched to HPS in the 90s....switched to COBs in the last few years....recently bought a Nextlight (Samsung chips)...currently looking at some T5 fixtures (just because)....and also considering a CMH fixture....probably switch to lasers when the tech becomes available!

Get the CMH for sure.

Id +1 on cmh
- very full and balanced spectrum
- easy to grow with
- beats its on paper performance in real life.
- good production per square foot.

hillbill said:

Many of us have lights that are being surpassed by the latest gains in efficiency and cooling. They become a little obsolete all the time even though they are superior to anything other than the latest COB and board products. We may have hundreds or thousands of dollars of quality discreet diode panels or early COBs. These are for all practical purposes as efficient and powerful as ever but there will come a point for me at least when the benefits of the new quiet and powerful creations outweigh the costs of upgrading. Not there yet but reading the LED forum is dangerous!

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My latest addition is a Northern Grow Lights Photon 180 Citizen COBs 3500k 90cri from the days before HLG going on 3 years and still use old Optic 120 and A51 SGS160, XGS190, RW75 (least used) and W90 COB. Different combos when needed but use just whites and run those bigger A51 Cree panels very low and 120 watts and 130 watts respectively. Some are 6 years old.

Still waiting to upgrade as these have been so good and such a change from HPS. I know I can pick up some efficiency so sometime maybe. Not a single problem from any of the fore-mentioned products. Passive cooling will a requirement when I do update.

The end game is simple to me...

A long florescent bulb with high end LEDs that retro fit into t5/t8's.

I bought some 140 lm/w bulbs and run them in my t5 or t8 I forget. I use 2 of the 4 bulbs because with 4 going I burned the plants...

At some point we will buy bulbs that do 180+ lm a watt for 5-10 bucks and stuff them in T5's T8's. You can buy these lights on craigslist for 50 bucks. You will be able to build lights as good as we make them today for less than 100$ and they will grow the same. In fact I don't understand why it's taking so fing long for someone to talk to a builder in china and get they to put lm301 b's in a florescent light bulb. There are a few but they charge like 50 bucks or more and they're still not the best chips.

Yes, retrofit bulbs would be ideal for affordable entry.....problem is those end-cap drivers aren't matching dedicated ones like mw, which hampers system efficiency. Also bypassing fluoro ballast loses the fixtures ul/etl certs.......if that matters.

PSUAGRO. said:

Yes, retrofit bulbs would be ideal for affordable entry.....problem is those end-cap drivers aren't matching dedicated ones like mw, which hampers system efficiency. Also bypassing fluoro ballast loses the fixtures ul/etl certs.......if that matters.

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Yes, but the point is at some point people will start manufacturing these lights with LED in mind as LED have and are further taking over. Thus we will get fixtures for dollars and bulbs for dollars.

Retrofit tubes are not good for 2 reasons, they can not heatsink enough so you get fast light decay, the drivers also get far too hot for this reason and cause reliability issues, A 5 meter reel of good constant voltage strip will outperform a retrofit tube, you could make 4 tubes from one reel

Two comments;
1. Cost is the new frontier; anyone can build a 70% efficient light but it will be extremely expensive. Getting the cost down for a given level of performance is going to be the new standard to beat going forward.

2. Never rule out a big tech innovation that changes the game or how it's played. LED is just as susceptible to such black swan events as any other tech. I should know, I'm working on one myself...

When there are new innovations released, indeed things can change. What does not change, is the usability of the now "obsolete" tech. I did my first few builds with Gen1 Bridgelux EB strips, two years ago. Every piece is still running, in perpetual garden setups. As new options emerge, it takes nothing away from the productivity of the old. Since I'm not compulsive about minor gains in efficiency, still riding on the initial investments in emitters, is plenty satisfying.

Chip Green said:

When there are new innovations released, indeed things can change. What does not change, is the usability of the now "obsolete" tech. I did my first few builds with Gen1 Bridgelux EB strips, two years ago. Every piece is still running, in perpetual garden setups. As new options emerge, it takes nothing away from the productivity of the old. Since I'm not compulsive about minor gains in efficiency, still riding on the initial investments in emitters, is plenty satisfying.

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Yep, just like an old car- it's paid for!

I’m looking for HLG to be out soon with something I cannot resist. There are rumors even now!

Chip Green said:

When there are new innovations released, indeed things can change. What does not change, is the usability of the now "obsolete" tech. I did my first few builds with Gen1 Bridgelux EB strips, two years ago. Every piece is still running, in perpetual garden setups. As new options emerge, it takes nothing away from the productivity of the old. Since I'm not compulsive about minor gains in efficiency, still riding on the initial investments in emitters, is plenty satisfying.

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This is what I've been thinking through this whole thread and many of the LED threads. Some of these guys are constantly chasing the newest most efficiant gear. I really think its laughable.

I totally get the massive jump in efficiancy that happens between HPS and LED. That makes enough sense in the long run.

If your current lights were kick ass and awesome yesterday, they still will be tomorrow even if there is a more awesome light too.

It also pays to keep in mind that much of the march of advancement has to do with reduced cost for the same tech. That doesn't change performance at all.

ttystikk said:

It also pays to keep in mind that much of the march of advancement has to do with reduced cost for the same tech. That doesn't change performance at all.

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Reduced cost for the same tech is the correct direction. Getting over 3.0 efficacy is great and all, but not if the light costs 9x what an HPS does. But if the market gets the 2.3-2.5 range down to $1/w on prebuilt fixtures, then you will see a massive shift towards LED.