The Sun's spectral output compared to grow light spectrums

tstick

Well-Known Member
I woke up before the Sun this morning and I took note of the slow changing of the color of the sky as time passed.....I wondered at what point plants switch back on from their sleep mode -like exactly what spectrum wakes them up and starts to tell them to start photosynthesizing again. Would it be in the dark blue range, for example?

Also, the color change of sunlight is constant -all day long. I know this isn't a revelation...but, in regards to comparing to artificial lights -and, in particular, most grow lights, there is only a constant spectral output throughout the entire "ON" cycle which doesn't change.

Plants, of course, made their evolution under the Sun and so it would seem to make sense to think there might have been some specific "call and response" systems in the plants that are more "coded" to the Sun than they are to artificial lights.

If someone were to graph the spectral output of Sunlight at the point where the sky is jussssst starting to lighten, and continue to graph that output all through the day, then my guess is the lines of that graph are going to be fluctuating the entire way. By comparison, when (most) indoor grow lights come on, they come on at full power and put out a spectrum that stays constant the entire "ON" period. There is no slow climb of the output -just BAM!...and no slow fade at dusk -just BAM! OFF! And, thus, when showing a graph for artifical lights, the spectrum never changes....IF a grower does add some lights that produce different colors, it usually happens all at once with a flip of a switch or the addition of a fixture. It is never a slow, constant change.

My question: Even though we can create artificial light that may stimulate more photosynthesis in plants than the Sun, do you think there could be a "missing link" in the much more subtle way the Sun administers its light that, in turn, might create more complex chemicals in plants?

I know that a few people are getting into arduinos, now, and I am curious to know if there have been any experiments done in regards to this subject - namely, how close can artificial lighting come to mimicking the way that sunllight's intensity and spectra are applied to indoor growing.

-any arduino-enhanced grows out there?
 

fROGGled

Well-Known Member
Shhhh, the Cobsters might here you ;). Don't know about any arduino growws but ya gotta appreciate these guys....
Skip to about 6:45 for the demo
 
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nevergoodenuf

Well-Known Member
@fROGGled
Some of us use far red at sunset and sunrise to wake and put to sleep are plants. I use my oldest led panel (357Magnum) with only the reds on for a half hour. This is my transition light.
 

Shugglet

Well-Known Member
If someone were to graph the spectral output of Sunlight at the point where the sky is jussssst starting to lighten, and continue to graph that output all through the day, then my guess is the lines of that graph are going to be fluctuating the entire way.
I feel like you are making a metric fuckton of assumptions in this post.

Case in point, does the light travelling through the atmosphere not determine the spectral output, (especially at dawn and sunset when it has to travel through more atmosphere)? The atmosphere is pretty dynamic on a local time scale, something tells me it was probably far different when plants were evolving under it.

Maybe Im wrong. But I still think you are making a lot of assumptions in your post.
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
I feel like you are making a metric fuckton of assumptions in this post.

Case in point, does the light travelling through the atmosphere not determine the spectral output, (especially at dawn and sunset when it has to travel through more atmosphere)? The atmosphere is pretty dynamic on a local time scale, something tells me it was probably far different when plants were evolving under it.

Maybe Im wrong. But I still think you are making a lot of assumptions in your post.

LOL! A "metric fuckton" sounds like a lot! :) Whatever way that sunlight interacts with plants on Earth, i.e., cloudy days, different angles depending on the season...whatever way the spectral output is created, there is definitely a change in both color and intensity throughout a solar photoperiod.

That video nailed what I was inquiring about. -Would plants benefit from an artificially-generated photoperiod if it were to mimic the solar photoperiod more closely -as opposed to plant growth generated under an instant, full-intensity from the start type of photoperiod.
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
Yeah. There's a lot of that "Kind" of stuff going on these days (har! har!)....

I just like to think about these things, in theory, while I'm high (like now)....and sure enough, there's already a bunch of people thinking along the same lines -they even made a light that plugs into the interwebz!!

I dunno...kinda looks like fun!
 

fROGGled

Well-Known Member
@fROGGled
Some of us use ........ put to sleep our plants.
I just read my plants the latest arguments about COB/white light efficiency and they go right out. Along with me :). But yeah, I've been aware of triggering and growers using it for a for a bit.


@tstick
Bottom line in my opinion. If the grower doesn't know what the individual spectrum does to their plant then don't bother, (unless you want to experiment then by all means buy 10 LX601s :)), but COBs are the best way for the average and above average grower to achieve great results. Now anyone who thinks it's just one statistic that makes or breaks a certain light then they're probably trying to sell you something. No onre really "knows" anything atm. Plus the last decades of growing indoors have been mostly about commercial quantity and not really centered on quality.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-9/features/standards/asabe-committee-continues-work-on-led-horticultural-lighting-standards.html
"As of now, most current lighting standards are based on human sensitivity to light, which is biased positively to green/yellow light and negatively to blue and red light. Plants utilize light for photosynthesis and adjust their developmental processes - e.g., seed germination, stem elongation, and other morphogenic responses and circadian rhythms - according to light signals perceived through different photoreceptors.

Many plant biologists believe that photoreceptors absorb radiation from approximately 280-800 nm. Today, many LED lighting fixtures for horticultural applications provide the so-called broadband and continuous spectra and they are developed specifically for plants. Using human-biased lighting standards, their efficiency is low, yet from a plant perspective, their efficiency is high. Therefore, some of the current lighting standards for LEDs are not appropriate for plant applications. The task force has completed the drafted standard titled "Quantities and Units of Electromagnetic Radiation for Plants (Photosynthetic Organisms)." According to the scope, this document provides definitions and descriptions of metrics used for radiation measurements for plant (photosynthetic organism) growth, development, and production. This document does not cover display aspects and human visualization."
 

pepperdust

Well-Known Member
for sure there is a missing link, we could never ever replicate the sun, as there might be more then our testing equipment can even pick up on.. what if there is a spectrum we don't even know about or some combo that make something else.. like synergistically.... we'll never compete as the sun is the sun, anything else would not compare, even comparing two seeds from same mom and dad can't really be compared "fully".....I don't even like comparing clones.... in short yes there is something missing, you could install a solar tube in your room....

here is from hello, which I why I love them, although I will say I'm sure we will see many more revisions and changes, as this is their first attempt at a commercial light,s o they are young still, I think 4 spectrums is missing it but I don't have a.. who knows how many multi million dollar company they are running with pH'D and "scientists" at the helm... here is 6 hours of on data form their light recipe for veg... not flower.. for flower it's odd, only 12 changes in light, the veg has like 120 I think.. just look at spectrum to know

they said they took the data from USDA??? sky data, or something to that extent, hahahaha. does this match malcons data??? the numbers below are of a possible 1000... so if you like more data, go check IC and I have the listed power wattages for each color band if you like to start doing ratios and getting nutty


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color chart would look better huh.. I don't have a photo spectrometer at the moment, working my way up as I still find playing with the damn thing crazy enough as there is limitless potential.. shame is more growers not using them so we can start eating big feedback.. I guess we wait for their team and "hired" growers to start helping more fine tune the spectrum... want a crazier light, get the RX30 which has more bands!
 

Evil-Mobo

Well-Known Member
I have been saying it this entire run even though I am not done. The COB area is doing well but it's "different" than the HPS side. The plants feel more natural under the hps and the leaves are wider on the same strains. The Hortilux bulb has something the cobs don't. Maybe the IR, UV, etc but it's just not the same. My hps plants are starting to bud up just like the COB plants despite being put in two weeks later. The COB plants have also stretched more.

It's very difficult to explain but much easier to show in person. My AC 1K is also cooler in the tent than the DIY COB light I am not sure if it's from driving the cobs hard at 75w each or what. But so far to me the COB differences do not seem so amazing. Harvest and smoke time will tell the full story can't wait.

Now where the cobs have shined to me is the 5K setup in veg vs my old T5 but the Hortilux Blue MH to me is still king there.

@OneHitDone and I go back on this topic a lot. My opinion is that LED at least the COBs are good but the technology still has a way to go when you factor cost vs yield. My HPS cost less than the parts for my DIY light and was plug and play and as much as the HID haters will jump on me for saying it so far the COB is not "Killing" the hps in my garden. As I said still a ways to harvest so time will tell.
 

goofy81

Well-Known Member
Sometimes nature doesn't provide the best environment.

Ie. Plants can take 5x more co2 than there is naturally. (May or may not be true since I read it on the internetz)

And with all this talk about climate change etc.. I don't think my plants would even survive outside with 6 straight days of 110+ and 15% rh. I live in the driest city of the driest state in the driest country of the driest continent in the world.
 

pepperdust

Well-Known Member
EVIl, agree with ya... all these lights can't really be compared, especially HPS, which still amazes me given it's low blue and red, and somehow fools every chart I've ever seen on growing optimal plants.. HPS is killer! I might think HPS has more water weight, but I'm just pulling something out my butt with that... evil that makes me wonder if the HPS gives off some vibration almost or some resonance that maybe we are missing why HPS is so good when on charts it's so shitty... I mean if you didn't tell a scientist the spectrums and showed them HPS to grow under and ask if it's a great spectrum or not , they would say, HELL NO, PASS.. I am still boggled by this, and as I have been trying to push, to build a LED that mimics HPS and tweak from there.. the colors should be able to beat HPS umol/j now and thus giving better return???? food for thought?

I think the thing somehow in the end, is LED performs flawless with gram per watt averages, and I believe it's just going to keep getting better... I achieved I think somewhere from 1.56-1.65 grams a watt on the new hello and just made up a spectrum, also these were low yielding plants, if I ran commercial I know I would hit over 2 grams a watt easy, and that's including new nutes, new setup, new strain, new pots, new media, also small .5 gallon pots and the tent wasn't even maximized in plant density, was a test tent!.... I always experiment something new every set, so apparently try that first run with a HPS very low yielding strain. also organic nutes, no synthetic with bloom booster or any organic "booster", so how's that for LED side though..


no nature doesn't provide the best environment, and that means it shouldn't be growing there then, technically the human has changed the landscape of the entire earth, good or bad that's another discussion. what's natural and what's possible are two completely different topics also.... I always say, just because you can, doesn't mean you should

plants also might have had that, as the earth was once heavy Co2, not oxygen... I'm not a scientist though, so there genes maybe carry that deeper in their code then levels of oxygen? anyone know a chart of Co2 and oxygen levels on earth? guess that could also be akin to saying you could technically eat 5k calories in one sitting but should ya.. I find I don't like to dabble with the pondering of how things work and why, all we know is humans can manipulate things to there way, although I think the consequences of playing with nature is far undercooked.. and yes I say this when I grow plants in a tent with a completely fake environment.. I am willing to admit that for sure, it's sure fun though but I am in no means pretending to be god, I just like how growing makes me feel...




anyways the damn point I was gonna say, is the hello chart for some reason does not have the 730 turned on in veg.. kinda odd given they are replicating the sun data..... ???????
 
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Rayne

Well-Known Member
I have been saying it this entire run even though I am not done. The COB area is doing well but it's "different" than the HPS side. The plants feel more natural under the hps and the leaves are wider on the same strains. The Hortilux bulb has something the cobs don't. Maybe the IR, UV, etc but it's just not the same. My hps plants are starting to bud up just like the COB plants despite being put in two weeks later. The COB plants have also stretched more.
Depending on the spectrum... LED lacks ultra violet A radiation and in some cases infrared. However that is easily remedied with secondary lighting. Unless there is a piece of glass in between the plants and the bulb. The output of HPS has a tiny amount of UV A.

I grow with UV B/A supplementation. I have completed one grow without UV supplementation and will not do that again.
 

Evil-Mobo

Well-Known Member
Depending on the spectrum... LED lacks ultra violet A radiation and in some cases infrared. However that is easily remedied with secondary lighting. Unless there is a piece of glass in between the plants and the bulb. The output of HPS has a tiny amount of UV A.

I grow with UV B/A supplementation. I have completed one grow without UV supplementation and will not do that again.
So a reflector with glass helps?

What difference did you notice when not supplementing with the UV?

And this just adds to the cost right to replicate what the hps is already doing? I am not trolling or trying to argue here I am asking for learning/information purposes.

Thanks
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
So a reflector with glass helps?

What difference did you notice when not supplementing with the UV?

And this just adds to the cost right to replicate what the hps is already doing? I am not trolling or trying to argue here I am asking for learning/information purposes.

Thanks
Glass cuts UV and reduces your output a few % in general
Bare bulb is where it's at bro (but we know the cooling obstacles with that)
 

Stephenj37826

Well-Known Member
I have been saying it this entire run even though I am not done. The COB area is doing well but it's "different" than the HPS side. The plants feel more natural under the hps and the leaves are wider on the same strains. The Hortilux bulb has something the cobs don't. Maybe the IR, UV, etc but it's just not the same. My hps plants are starting to bud up just like the COB plants despite being put in two weeks later. The COB plants have also stretched more.

It's very difficult to explain but much easier to show in person. My AC 1K is also cooler in the tent than the DIY COB light I am not sure if it's from driving the cobs hard at 75w each or what. But so far to me the COB differences do not seem so amazing. Harvest and smoke time will tell the full story can't wait.

Now where the cobs have shined to me is the 5K setup in veg vs my old T5 but the Hortilux Blue MH to me is still king there.

@OneHitDone and I go back on this topic a lot. My opinion is that LED at least the COBs are good but the technology still has a way to go when you factor cost vs yield. My HPS cost less than the parts for my DIY light and was plug and play and as much as the HID haters will jump on me for saying it so far the COB is not "Killing" the hps in my garden. As I said still a ways to harvest so time will tell.

What temps are you running in the cob area?
 
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