Flowki
Well-Known Member
I don't even want to know the trauma you suffered, you use nazi way too often that it's clearly personal.
This is what happens when politics go one sided
- Thread starter Flowki
- Start date
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
well ya know having family that died at the hands of nazis or were forced to flee their homes was a reality.
but yeah, do tell me all about how bad these women are. the ones who LITERALLY HATE!!!!! men. sounds scary. almost like being slaughtered in a death camp by nazis.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
In order for you to "have a conversation", you first stake out a position based upon a made up term that you define for yourself however you like.
That's not a conversation, dude. It's gibberish.
Now, about your naive assumption that Republicans are the same as Democrats. We can talk about that if you like.
potroastV2
Well-Known Member
PCXV
Well-Known Member
"Love and peace" movements that are authoritarian you say? Sounds like conflation and political gibberish. If they aren't hippies spreading love and peace and don't claim to be, how are they still part of the "love and peace" movement. I would bet the majority of leftists aren't love and peace hippies. The right-wing has made a straw man of tolerance; it has never been defined as tolerance of harmful ideas.
I agree with your sentiment of meeting in the middle and hoping for less polarization, but we also have to face the facts, and the fact is that the right-wing has been arguing fallaciously for decades because their ideas don't stand up to scrutiny. Lots of these right wing policies are historically proven to fail, and many, many of them directly betray conservative principles. The main reason I am biased against the right is because of their misinformation campaigns that mislead people back to ideas that are hypocritical, proven to fail, and/or have a main purpose of senselessly harming people. The track record for Republicans and the conservative constituency is horrendous.
zeddd
Well-Known Member
None of the above, who are “they”
Flowki
Well-Known Member
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=alt-left
The first most popular example is exactly what I believe alt-left to be but I will add.. it also includes the verbal use of ''well if you disagree with me then you must be'' -insert applicable racist,homophobic, anti transsexual, sexist, and so on cards. That has the effect of shutting down a persons opinion (as factually correct as it may be) in fear of social ridicule or political/career suicide. You've surely seen the physical side, such as innocent none violent trump supporters being physically beaten. As retarded as most of trumps values and supporters are, none violent people asserting their right to vote should not be physically beaten by the left as a result. It's absurd.. more absurd than the fact trump even got into power. Also I understand that it's not just the left who use these fact based opinion shut down tactics, the right do it too but it seems nobody is ready to give the left any blame for the shit they are doing while people are all over the right for it.
I have seen the hatred and guilt tripping that is growing in the left, or the soft approach to ''stand by'' and let bad things happen as to not ''upset anybody''. Standing by and doing nothing when you could have done something makes a person only slightly better than somebody committing the violent act. As I stated, this mentality (not perusing reported Muslim criminals due to political racial fear) is what lead to those children being raped in the OP video. Those officers.. or officials who didn't act are no less guilty than the perpetrators. The general public who made those officers or officials feel afraid to act due to potential calls of racism back lash.. also have some secondary blame. Don't you see the connection of shared let down?. You see the same god awful things happen when high ranking officials or famous people are involved in various crimes. They get a free pass for other reasons, but the result is the same, crimes and suffering that should have been prevented, were not.
So many cases of people using minority status as a guilt/fear ridden bargain chip has become of the left. To assume everybody from the left are going to make rational demands or have fact based rational views is absurd, they don't.. hence the alt-left was born. It is a very dangerous thing, no less than the right (extremist terror groups recruited due to soft hand of left and alt-left fear tactics crippling the political/social chain). Just because the alt-left can not be compared like for like to the alt-right it does not mean the suffering is not there or any less. It is simply less obvious given the complex subtle ramifications of the left/alt-left combination.
The republicans are the same as the democrats in that they are organizations ran by people. People make mistakes, people do good and bad things, fact or not?. If you want to argue about what side has done ''the most bad things''.. not interested. What is important to save the ever growing rise of alt-left extremism is to know that no side is perfect and has a righteous green light to defecate verbal hate and physical attack with no moral guilt. Never swap tolerance with hate.. that's the core issue the left is facing. If you have done that then you are on the path to alt-left. Simple as that.
Flowki
Well-Known Member
I don't need to bet. I know you are in south central bandwagon.I know you are in England, but I'll bet you're in the deep South!
Flowki
Well-Known Member
Some of this I answered already in response to Fogdog. I get it, once invested in opposing something it's not easy to rethink things from an unbiased platform. Most of the sentiment from the left is very noble but it is also easy for the extreme nut jobs to exploit for what ever goals they have. Just like economics, people exploit tax loop holes and yada yada. The problems are not like for like, you don't just compare ''nazi right shot a black man'' so lets find a ''left racist black man who shot a white man''.
As I said in OP heavy right is bad. However we seem to have this growing idea that the further left you go to get away from right the better. Hatred and fear is what is pushing the left so far out and I can not rationally see how that will lead us anywhere better.
Just look at chuck and the way he posts. Look at every other poster here who was not as nutty as he but shunted differing opinion with hate, bandwagon ''safe'' opinion or secondary/out of context dribble.
That is literally the first post on a somewhat equal footing, regardless of what will no doubt be some opposing opinion. So you obviously have a spine.
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UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
says the guy on a website devoted to growing a federally illegal schedule 1 controlled substance.
go suck some muslim dick, nazi-lover.
PCXV
Well-Known Member
Why do you assume it is because someone has consciously chosen bias instead of someome consciously choosing morality? Republicans and conservatives have some very obviously immoral and irresponsible/unrealistic views, and I think there are stats and evidence that qualifies that as objective truth. Democrats have opposed them at every turn, and really not in very extreme ways as to commit the same immorality. The opposition to immorality is at the very least slightly more moral.
Can you specify some examples of liberalism being harmful aka immoral? I often see straw men fallacious arguments employed by the right when attacking liberals, whenever things get complex they shy away or change the subject, shy away, etc.
OT: the rhetoric from the right et al makes these same accusations but they don't hold water and are actually more true of conservatives. They say liberals are driven only by emotion, are authoritarian, are violent, and accuse the other side of what they are guilty of. The latter is the cherry of irony.
PCXV
Well-Known Member
So any right-winger that is aggressive at al towards liberals is alt-right? I think you should check your own bias and what looks to me like double standards. I have my own logical views of morality. I use basic moral standards like harm reduction and equality to scrutinize ideas that are considered liberal, conservative, or other. I consider bias and political agenda on both sides. Most conclusions/policy proposals from the right are heavy in lies, half-truths, or some kind of logical fallacy. Hating and demonizing liberals and liberal ideology (with more fallacy and misleading narratives) is the only reason right wing ideas gain popularity at all, not because of the merit and truth to the idea itself. Fox News, Breitbart, etc. are propagating what they think LIVs want to hear. They pander to the most ignorant and cycnical parts of the human psyche; the people that need to feel "right" but don't want to (or are too lazy too) do the hard work of gathering all relevant info (from left and right sources), considering bias on all sides including their own bias, pretty much the basic process I described above. Again, it is all very ironic they accuse this of the left when you consider the track record of Democratic votes since Obama.
Flowki
Well-Known Member
The left in your country is comparable to mine. The sentiment and actions are usually always good. However you can not say that left policy is always right, it isn't. For example, the left often believe corps should pay more tax. I agree with that, too many loop holes. However it is a dangerous game to play robin hood because as we've seen in both country's, if you force them to pay too much or too quick they leave. When they leave effected areas suffer badly, poverty and the downward social spiral of drugs/crime that goes with it (I know that's happened in your country too). The noble sentiment of ''how the world should be'' clashes with the real world and mobile business. Again I agree big corps should pay a fair amount with no loop holes, but it's a path to be tread very lightly, not forcefully.
Also in our country we have something you don't and something you should understand. Expecting to give all people a good standard of life, free health care, money if not in work, a friendly immigration system that also offers those benefits etc sounds logical. It all sounds like the way forward and very good policy. Problem is, in reality it's not that simple. The nicer you are the easier it is for people to abuse the system. Ask anybody from the UK about people abusing the system here, it ''was'' a huge issue in this country, but is very slowly improving. Some family's would literally spit out a kid every few year so they can abuse the government hand outs and not go to work. Such family's end up big, badly parented, under educated and more prone to a life path that will severely damage themselves and others. The children have a high chance of also ending up on the hand out system. We have multiple generations suffering from the back lash of this. People in certain jobs working many hours daily for penny's were actually no better off than just sitting on benefits due to tax or low skilled work. Imagine how demoralizing it is to go to work knowing that, and also knowing so many are using the benefit money you worked for, just to buy booze/drugs/cigarettes, it created class and social tension. It also adds more waste to the nhs in dealing with the bad health they inevitably suffer. We pay for that too.
On the flip side the right has been selling off the nhs. You could automatically blame the right for it, I know I did.. but when I thought about it deeper, when we look at how much we've lost by free hand outs, it seemed inevitable. That still does not justify selling it off but once again it shows the lack of political/moral balance.. one extreme to the next but the common factor, the poor suffer.
I believe you can draw similar examples of ''doing the right thing'' on paper going badly in practice. It isn't to say the above does not work but this is what I am talking about, you need the noble sentiment of the left but it must be driven forward by cold iron fist factual business in order to keep things sustainable. In terms of policy, the left can become dangerous by literally killing people with love. It isn't even a joke.
On a social level I've already pointed out how left can get carried away, beating trump supporters and so forth in your country. Maybe they are people who got swept up in emotion, maybe they are or becoming extreme left (yes alt-left to me).
The left in your country has exhibited a lot more dangerous behavior than ours. But that is because your over all culture is far more violent. You have to also take into account that the social politics often dictates government politics. When a big enough ''movement'' or social out cry pours out you will see politicians pandering to this in order to seize power. That's how trump got in right?. So I find it very scary that the left is increasingly becoming about feelings over facts, minority guilt over fact, fear of social ridicule over fact. I find the left/alt-left more dangerous in present times because the left is like the assassin that nobody is paying attention too. It isn't being taken seriously as a problem. The right on the other hand, we know the bad things/ramifications.
America can quite easily look to the uk and see what mistakes we made to avoid themselves. It seems like you are potentially heading down the same paths we did but given your more violent culture it's going to be far worse.
Flowki
Well-Known Member
left/right alt-left/alt-right. Middle aside.
Left is if you desire freedom for all, equality, somewhat equal standard of living, typically oppose big business or establishment etc. Don't need to support all the values but most.
Alt-left are people who hold some of those views but use the elements of it as a weapon. ''you are political right so my more noble left views trump yours and I may use hate/aggression because I am morally entitled too'' or ''If you disagree with my left opinions it must be because you are a nazi''.. the person they talk about may not even be political right, certainly not alt-right. People from the left can momentarily have some alt-left behavior but does not mean they are alt-left. Chuck regularly exhibits alt-left.. so yeah, he's alt-left.
Right is more about economics, business, keep what you earn, survival of the fittest.
Alt-right hold similar values but basically add in race ''whites are more entitled''
The lines are not plane and obvious so if I generalize I apologize. Just because a person is right it does not mean they don't care about equality. Similarly just because somebody is left it does not mean they don't understand the need for economic balance over blind generosity.
Main stream media is a joke.. and as you said often bias due to it's owners. YouTube and other such outlets are a better way of getting to the truth but that only works if you search info from both sides. Obviously a lot of people only watch/read what consolidates current belief +bias media. Does not matter what polarized side you are on, doing that is dangerous. It's why alt-right is a sizeable group and why alt-left is becoming one.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
I'd be willing to bet that not one single person will ever read either of these long winded diatribes.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Republicans and Democrats are members of the same religious cult, "government worshipers " which believes some people have more rights than others and it is okay for those people, but not you or I as individuals to initiate offensive force.
Oh and you're not a charitable person if you advocate for forcible redistribution, which you do, just like Republicans do.
We can talk about that, but I doubt you have the ability to reflect on your own flawed logic.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your analysis. You said left is about freedom for all, but that is incorrect. Also you are incorrect when you say right is about keep what you earn.
No person advocating for an involuntary democratic based government can truthfully be concerned with equality in the real sense of the word, since a democracy presupposes that the people affected all agree to be part of it, which isn't the case in the world today.
JonahAddison
New Member
Thedorkknight
Member
If you consider a jew a nazi, i dont know what to do for you. You sound way too indoctrinated to have a logical, unbiased thought
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
we knew you thought that when you advocated for racists to hang segregation signs