Trichrome Color and the Effect on High - Legend, Myth, or Fact?

Sqwee said:

Hybrids being stoney or uplifting are determined by which way the pheno leans, not by when you pick it.

And I never said there isn't a difference in high based on when you harvest, the only thing I'm disagreeing with is milky trichomes = uplifting, amber = couch lock.

Its amusing you get so aggressive due to your lack of reading comprehension.

Go look at the DDS I harvested at 13 weeks on the Useful thread. Sativa dominant pheno, crazy amount of amber trichomes, nothing stoney about it.

Or the Jabba's Stash that was Bubba Kush leaning I posted on the Bodhi thread with majority milky trichomes, complete night time smoke.

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Yes, which way the pheno leans will ultimately decide the high but you can alter that high by maturing it for longer.

How Much you can alter it is solely dependent on each plant. But my point is that it ‘can’ be achieved but varies. That’s my limited experience.

I was also referring to someone else in my post about difference in high.

Yet I grew Kali Mist until mostly amber trichomes and after 15 mins of high you felt heavy for 4hrs lol

Nutty sKunK said:

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I find it amusing we need be shown the difference on paper when it can be simply observed in ones own experience by comparing a 7 week old bud to a 11 week old bud!
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Placebo effect and confirmation bias are real things. Quick drying is assumed bad because the optimum window to jar is very small. A slower dry gives you a longer window of viability so it's easier not to fuck up. Especially if you're constantly smoking new tables LOL

Lagged said:

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It's not the only kind of data I will take in as well. As you can see @Thundercat and I had a great convo about his 16 years of experience and what he found his consumers liked most.

We're all here for friendly, intellectual conversation

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In the US the Universities can not because it's a Schedule 1. They can't get funded and all graduate research is based on funding. Further for the few that can the requirements are draconian and that translates to no research.

Your argument's bias is called Appeal to Authority. Now I personally believe @Thundercat knows his shit and I have a lot of respect for him and several other growers on here that I've followed over the years and that's what importing through the 70-80s and growing since '96 have taught me but this underscores why we need actual University research.

Just because our lengthy and in depth anecdotal experience supports one way does not mean it is actually that way. There can be many factors that we simply overlook but because of our adherence to a ritual, especially the long held and practiced ones, that gets us a successful harvest. It's similar to how steel was forged in Japan almost a religious practice in its' pedantry prior to research and understanding of the science.

jochhe1998 said:

Hey Thundercat!

Thanks for the reply buddy. Sorry for the newbie questions but at what point does a plant pass peak ripeness? 20% amber? 60%? Or something completely different altogether.

And lol, you sound like my old waterpolo coach the way you treat your plants

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Peak potency of the plant is when the maximum amount of trichomes have reached the cloudy state. Ideally you would want the whole plant completely cloudy. That’s just unrealistic though because the whole plant doesn’t mature at the same speed and because the trichomes that develop first on the plant will usually begin to degrade a bit before the majority of the plant has reached its peak. This is why it’s important to ignore trichomes until the plant is showing the rest of the signs of maturity. This is why we wait until there is some percentage of Amber, to ensure we are allowing the rest of the plant a chance to actually become cloudy, not just sort of look cloudy because someone is looking at them wrong or their scope sucks.

Generally speaking I stopped focusing on trichomes to determine harvest points years ago. If I’m running a new cultivar and feel like I need to I’ll check on them once the plant is in that final stage. But typically once the plant reaches that point I have been happy making the call myself.

Thundercat said:

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Generally speaking I stopped focusing on trichomes to determine harvest points years ago. If I’m running a new cultivar and feel like I need to I’ll check on them once the plant is in that final stage. But typically once the plant reaches that point I have been happy making the call myself.

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Same here and if I have a question I'll quick dry a test nug for confirmation of what my eyes are telling me. I've also harvested tall plants at different times allowing undergrowth to mature after taking the tops.

Nutty sKunK said:

Yes, which way the pheno leans will ultimately decide the high but you can alter that high by maturing it for longer.

How Much you can alter it is solely dependent on each plant. But my point is that it ‘can’ be achieved but varies. That’s my limited experience.

I was also referring to someone else in my post about difference in high.

Yet I grew Kali Mist until mostly amber trichomes and after 15 mins of high you felt heavy for 4hrs lol

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I completely agree you can fine tune the high of a plant by when you harvest but my stance is its the genetics of a pheno that is the biggest factor determining the experience not trichome age. That's why we pheno hunt for potency and effect and why my concentrates from popcorn buds on Indica doms are still stoney despite not being as mature.

Another example, I grew HBK from Dynasty and harvested all the phenos at the same level of trichome maturity, mostly cloudy around 10% amber but not fully ripe. The tall stretchy phenos were a happy uplifting high, the one short Afghan bush pheno is very stoney. I ran them again for 2 weeks longer and the Afghan pheno became stonier, the sativa leaning plants were still uplifting but the high lasted way longer.

Sqwee said:

I completely agree you can fine tune the high of a plant by when you harvest but my stance is its the genetics of a pheno that is the biggest factor determining the experience not trichome age. That's why we pheno hunt for potency and effect and why my concentrates from popcorn buds on Indica doms are still stoney despite not being as mature.

Another example, I grew HBK from Dynasty and harvested all the phenos at the same level of trichome maturity, mostly cloudy around 10% amber but not fully ripe. The tall stretchy phenos were a happy uplifting high, the one short Afghan bush pheno is very stoney. I ran them again for 2 weeks longer and the Afghan pheno became stonier, the sativa leaning plants were still uplifting but the high lasted way longer.

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Ive noticed that too. The high seems longer on sativa leaning phenos.

Was simply pointing out one can fine tune a plant to their own taste. But as you say it’s most important getting the genetics right in the first place!

curious2garden said:

In the US the Universities can not because it's a Schedule 1. They can't get funded and all graduate research is based on funding. Further for the few that can the requirements are draconian and that translates to no research.

Your argument's bias is called Appeal to Authority. Now I personally believe @Thundercat knows his shit and I have a lot of respect for him and several other growers on here that I've followed over the years and that's what importing through the 70-80s and growing since '96 have taught me but this underscores why we need actual University research.

Just because our lengthy and in depth anecdotal experience supports one way does not mean it is actually that way. There can be many factors that we simply overlook but because of our adherence to a ritual, especially the long held and practiced ones, that gets us a successful harvest. It's similar to how steel was forged in Japan almost a religious practice in its' pedantry prior to research and understanding of the science.

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Please don't take what I said as "Just because Thundercat is a cool dude he's the same as a University PhD Researcher". What appealed to me was the degree of experience and feedback he received from his patients that gives his data a bit more validity than 'John Doe the Dope Grower' who likes his bud a specific way and claims that to be bible because he's afraid to be wrong. (not saying that's anyone here, just an example). It's this weird balance we're in right now where we're just breaching the beginning of getting some actual research by scientists who probably don't have as thorough of an understanding of the plant versus Thundercat who's been doing it for 16 years in regards to recreational use. His input is greatly appreciated, and will be weighted accordingly, but of course everything we read on the topic (outside of scientific data) is taken with a grain of salt.

Also regarding the Uni's, yes I am aware of this, I'm talking about post prohibition! Can't wait for some actual research to come out. Shit I can probably go back to school and get my degree in cannabis botany before that happens, though LOL

Thundercat said:

This is why we wait until there is some percentage of Amber, to ensure we are allowing the rest of the plant a chance to actually become cloudy, not just sort of look cloudy because someone is looking at them wrong or their scope sucks.

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^ THIS. My hypothesis is it's not so much about the differences in the "high" having a higher proportion of amber, but rather a signal that you have the most cloudy trichs and least amount of underdeveloped, clear trichs. Now obviously different strains/pheno's mature at different rates and peak potency will have varying percentages of amber I would presume. Would be nice if someone could iron this out for each strain/pheno! (Okay, Sour D you want 15% amber, White Widow you want 20%, etc etc). Can't wait for this research to come out, I find it hella interesting.

I just want to say all of you guys and master growers are geniuses in your own right. Much respect and thanks for spreading your knowledge.

Thundercat said:

Peak potency of the plant is when the maximum amount of trichomes have reached the cloudy state. Ideally you would want the whole plant completely cloudy. That’s just unrealistic though because the whole plant doesn’t mature at the same speed and because the trichomes that develop first on the plant will usually begin to degrade a bit before the majority of the plant has reached its peak. This is why it’s important to ignore trichomes until the plant is showing the rest of the signs of maturity. This is why we wait until there is some percentage of Amber, to ensure we are allowing the rest of the plant a chance to actually become cloudy, not just sort of look cloudy because someone is looking at them wrong or their scope sucks.

Generally speaking I stopped focusing on trichomes to determine harvest points years ago. If I’m running a new cultivar and feel like I need to I’ll check on them once the plant is in that final stage. But typically once the plant reaches that point I have been happy making the call myself.

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Thank you again man, well written and cleared up a lot of misunderstandings I had.

Lagged said:

Would be nice if someone could iron this out for each strain/pheno! (Okay, Sour D you want 15% amber, White Widow you want 20%, etc etc). Can't wait for this research to come out, I find it hella interesting.

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It won’t ever happen, because of what a phenotype is. It’s a genetic expression, based on the environment the plant is grown in. So the same plant can and will grow differently depending on the environment it’s grown. Which would make it impossible to determine exact percentages or finish times for whole strains or even phenos. This is part of why breeder flower times are just guidelines and usually not accurate.

Thundercat said:

It won’t ever happen, because of what a phenotype is. It’s a genetic expression, based on the environment the plant is grown in. So the same plant can and will grow differently depending on the environment it’s grown. Which would make it impossible to determine exact percentages or finish times for whole strains or even phenos. This is part of why breeder flower times are just guidelines and usually not accurate.

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I agree that epigenetics play a large role in our plant's lives. I'm looking forward to research on telomeres in clones.