True HP Aero For 2011

Atomizer · Oct 10, 2011

Lucas was designed for ease of use with r/o water in recirculated hydro systems..no PH or EC meter required

Best practices even with Lucas due to biofilm/effluent is to DTW at least once a week, I've used Lucas personally on 2 week reservoir changes, I wouldn't recommend it, it will stunt your growth, res change every week.

I don`t understand what you mean by "dtw once a week". The only res change you will need to make using Drain to waste (DTW) is when your res is empty. The nutes run to the roots only once and the runoff is discarded, it provides a very stable elemental profile, PH and EC for the life of the res. The first and last drop from a dtw res will be pretty much identical. In a recirculated system the runoff goes back to the reservoir minus whatever the plants took from it. Over time, the elemental profile, PH and EC are modified by the ongoing dilution of old and new. Most growers using Lucas formula use the add-back method to judge when to dump the res.

boodadood · Oct 10, 2011

i currently use lucas GH in my lpa/nft grow...i started with technaflora's recipe for success kit and i turned it into a recipe for disaster...i recirculate and im sure that had something to do with my issues when i used the RFS kit...i could never get the pH right and i tormented my plants with various deficiencies...i finally gave it up and went back to using lucas GH and my plants did a 180 and look spectacular in 2 weeks flowering...pH is steady and they are lovin every minute of it...this was the first time i tried growing using anything else besides lucas GH and im very hesitant to try something new again...i strayed this time because of the aftertaste i kept having no matter what strain it was...i would flush for 2 weeks but my bud would smell and taste like a cross between morning queefs and rotten fruit...buddy of mine had the same issue with his coco grows...same taste/smell...he switched to canna and since i only grow a couple of plants at a time i went with the RFS kit

i like to keep my nutes simple and my grow systems way too complex...for my HPA system i was thinking i would use a much lower strength lucas GH and start from there...please warn me now if this is a bad move

thanks
BD

Trichy Bastard · Oct 10, 2011

boodadood said:
i currently use lucas GH in my lpa/nft grow...i started with technaflora's recipe for success kit and i turned it into a recipe for disaster...i recirculate and im sure that had something to do with my issues when i used the RFS kit...i could never get the pH right and i tormented my plants with various deficiencies...i finally gave it up and went back to using lucas GH and my plants did a 180 and look spectacular in 2 weeks flowering...pH is steady and they are lovin every minute of it...this was the first time i tried growing using anything else besides lucas GH and im very hesitant to try something new again...i strayed this time because of the aftertaste i kept having no matter what strain it was...i would flush for 2 weeks but my bud would smell and taste like a cross between morning queefs and rotten fruit...buddy of mine had the same issue with his coco grows...same taste/smell...he switched to canna and since i only grow a couple of plants at a time i went with the RFS kit

i like to keep my nutes simple and my grow systems way too complex...for my HPA system i was thinking i would use a much lower strength lucas GH and start from there...please warn me now if this is a bad move

thanks
BD

You'll be fine- it'll just taste like high pressure concentrated queefs now... !

There was a few points of your statement that are personal preference related. I don't believe in flushing and try to not overfeed, but that's a personal opinion, and no need to argue as I know alot of people do flush with good results. I think the issue with the lucas is that it is designed to buffer the solution and ph for the enivitable swings that occur when recirculating. Since this isn't an issue with DTW, I would try Atomizers Canna advice, as it's extremely simple (just 2 bottles of grow/2 bottles of bloom) and since he's had good results with it I'd think it's worth a shot- heck might even get rid of the queefs for ya at the same time

The issue will be if your aero setup does not achieve the proper misting environment, if you spray too much, it might seem like you are wasting alot of nutes, and the roots won't develop the hp structure. In that case you will likely see similar results to your hydro grows and might be more comfortable with your old formulations. But I think you should give hpa a 100% shot, nute change and all, and see what happens? The good news is that you can start off buying the smallest bottles of canna due to the fact you'll mix so little- and only be out less than 50 bucks or so if the experiment doesn't work. (That's my initial plan anyway). The way I see it, if I'm gonna try some of Atomizer's advice- I'm, going to try it all as a whole package- since it seems to work for him.

Atomizer · Oct 10, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
Atomizer told me the GH mixture that worked well was: 0.7ml Micro, 0.2ml Bloom and 0.8ml Grow per litre.

Just to clarify, the GH ratio`s only approximate Canna Hydro Vega @1ml/L so they wouldnt be too good for bloom

The values for vega are GH micro: 0.675 ml/L, GH Bloom: 0.204 ml/L, GH Grow: 0.878 ml/L and for something approximating flores, GH micro: 0.530 ml/L, GH Bloom: 0.331 ml/L, GH Grow: 1.105 ml/L

Trichy Bastard · Oct 11, 2011

Atomizer said:
Just to clarify, the GH ratio`s only approximate Canna Hydro Vega @1ml/L so they wouldnt be too good for bloom
The values for vega are GH micro: 0.675 ml/L, GH Bloom: 0.204 ml/L, GH Grow: 0.878 ml/L and for something approximating flores, GH micro: 0.530 ml/L, GH Bloom: 0.331 ml/L, GH Grow: 1.105 ml/L

Thanks for the elaboration- and also providing the bloom ratios. I remember before I was able to find Canna products shipped relatively inexpensively in the US after a little searching- I'll have to find a good place again, and will post the link for anyone wishing to follow that route here. I am sure there are more than one way to crack the nute nut, but with all the other variables and things to get right here, I'd like to keep at least that one thing simple by just following your lead. If/when I encounter inital issues with my hpa, I'd like to know it's less likely to be my nute ratio than something else. Nutes can be a whole project of their own.

foresakenlion · Oct 11, 2011

r0m disregard the warning they do that because it is registered as a pesticide, Superthrive has another synthetic auxin hormone that causes prolific focus on root development, you can use that one, doesn't have any posted warnings. Though you don't need rooting hormone, it does help tell the plant chemically where you want the focus.

Atomix I was :bigjoint:

on that one, I meant to say when I was reading the newer posts by Lucas himself he was advocating dumping your res once a week and not doing any add backs, because of the before mentioned issues.

DTW is completely different, as the dumping is part of the feeding,

So I'm figuring out my relief valves now, thanks to PF and H2O Distributors I found affordable pressure gauges, the only issue now is to use that Dayton Relief Valve, or use other type there was some concern about, one way you have to use a T into the relief, then another T after it w/ the gauge to get a clean straight pass through, otherwise you just do the other valve w/ the gauge port.

Piston Style Pressure Relief Valve SS23120PP-3/4 Polypropylene 3/4" MPT x FPT $17.97

mrflamboynt · Oct 12, 2011

chennemann, we need an update from that grow!! the more i read this thread, the more i see people saying that buckets dont work.... sure looks like the buckets are working, LOL.. i mean, nobody else is showing better looking roots using enclosures of different shapes.... any other thoughts on using a bucket instead of a $120 deck box, or custom enclosure?

perhaps the folks that say buckets dont work werent doing something right? without spending a ton on a root chamber of a different design, the bucket looks like a viable solution to those on a tighter budget. unless something went horribly wrong since this last photo...

chennemann · Oct 12, 2011

Buckets seem to work for us. Here are some pictures of his bud at 35 days.

This is Extrema #9

Extrema #7

The roots change a little throughout the grow. But in general they look similar to this, but the bucket is fuller. Some of the roots thicken up a little and other roots are fuzzier.

We are testing using no screen on the bottom and it seems to be doing well. Everything is still white and growing up from the bottom. The bottom is denser and I believe it may even be beneficial compared to using a screen. We are experience similar results to a hempy bucket were the roots hit the water table. Hope that helps...

Mike Young · Oct 12, 2011

mrflamboynt said:
chennemann, we need an update from that grow!! the more i read this thread, the more i see people saying that buckets dont work.... sure looks like the buckets are working, LOL.. i mean, nobody else is showing better looking roots using enclosures of different shapes.... any other thoughts on using a bucket instead of a $120 deck box, or custom enclosure?

perhaps the folks that say buckets dont work werent doing something right? without spending a ton on a root chamber of a different design, the bucket looks like a viable solution to those on a tighter budget. unless something went horribly wrong since this last photo...

Dems some fine lookin roots! Goddammit, I'm tired of dicking around trying to get healthy clones. Seriously. I must be missing something, cause I see others have great success, meanwhile, I can't seem to get a single one to the point where I'd think its ready to go in my rig. Perhaps mediumless is not worth trying to hold onto. Really thinking of trying atomizer's method if this next batch fails me.

Trichy Bastard · Oct 13, 2011

I'd agree- and as I said before- those are the best bucket roots I've ever seen. It's a little hard to tell from the distance, but I think they're 99% hpa roots perhaps only lacking copius fuzz- Are you able to run dtw nutes yet? I am only guessing that without the fuzz you aren't quite there- but man that is so close (and maybe I'm wrong and they are fuzzy but I just can't see it in the picture). Either way, I'd say you are doing very good with this-congrats! Curious what your mist timings are end ec levels if it's not too much to ask? Also since we've been talking about it- which nutes are you running? Thanks for sharing your success with us chennemann!

chennemann · Oct 13, 2011

Trichy - You are correct these are not quite to the super fuzz area. We are doing dtw and are running multiple strains this round. They are not all the same size plants or root structure. So we are playing it on the safe side and slightly over watering. We are getting super fuzz on some of the plants, they just are not in a good location to take pictures (we didn't set this up to take pictures

)

If we wanted super fuzz all we would have to do is lower the mist time. Currently I think he is at 1.8 seconds on and 2 minutes off. If we would go 1 second and ~1:20 we would get more fuzz. The difference in growth from what your seeing in this picture and super fuzz doesn't seem that dramatic. Plus we would be risking underwater some of the plants that are already to the super fuzz area.

Another negative to the super fuzz is that it fills the buckets very quickly. For us getting super fuzz on some of the plants and keeping the others close is working great. Maybe we are only getting 95 percent of what is possible, but it seems to be working great. In an ideal world we run the same strain for all the plants from clones.

I believe one of the biggest issue is people seeing pictures like this or others and they want to get to this point right away. You need to start from the very beginning and keep working towards improving the roots. This plant is not one week old, it takes time to build great roots. Out start off like a regular areo cloner then we start to get it fuzzy as times goes on.

phumer · Oct 13, 2011

I've been trolling this thread for a week or so trying to absorb all the info I can before starting my aero adventure. I'm curently in the acquisition phase, and had some questions regarding timers. I'm probably going to get the ATT422 flip flop timer, bc its easily obtainable, I have spent the last few days looking into cheaper ebay alternatives, to little avail. Has this timer performed like how you were expecting it to?

Has anyone messed around with USB relay boards and writing their own programs to achieve proper timing? I only suggest this because if feasible, it could be a very cheap way to control multiple misting cycles say if one wanted to expand the number of solenoids within a given system or multiple systems in order to control when the accumulator tank refill.

mrflamboynt · Oct 13, 2011

chennemann, the pics of the top-side of those plants look AWESOME! i am a firm believer in only getting back what effort i put into the things that i do.

however, as long as there are places for people to gather and share their knowledge from PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE, the next guy will always have the potential to improve his results.... notice i used the word "potential".... =)

anyway keep us up to date, on your bucket grow..... i assume you dont journal this grow? thanks again for the good info.... keep it up!

hammer21 · Oct 13, 2011

[/Q

I've been trolling this thread for a week or so trying to absorb all the info I can before starting my aero adventure. I'm curently in the acquisition phase, and had some questions regarding timers. I'm probably going to get the ATT422 flip flop timer, bc its easily obtainable, I have spent the last few days looking into cheaper ebay alternatives, to little avail. Has this timer performed like how you were expecting it to?

Has anyone messed around with USB relay boards and writing their own programs to achieve proper timing? I only suggest this because if feasible, it could be a very cheap way to control multiple misting cycles say if one wanted to expand the number of solenoids within a given system or multiple systems in order to control when the accumulator tank refill. UOTE] here is the controller that i`m using Plug and play

Trichy Bastard · Oct 13, 2011

I searched forever as well, and came back to the 422 because it's proven track record and ability to do just what is called for here. Hammer has this new timer he just posted, and it looks really promising as well. The question is if it is available for purchase to the mainstream public yet- which he would have to answer. You can control as many solenoids as you like off a single timer, the relay in it passes the current to however many solenoids you have attached- if I am understanding your question correctly. I think some have worked with the boards your talking about, or even PLC (programmable logic controller) - but I have not heard of anyone's results thus far. For me since there are so many other variables to work with, I found it became easier to just buy the 422 and get going with the rest of it. Perhaps this timer Hammer posted will be a new contender and maybe even a better one as it has the same timing functionality of the 422 with also being plug n' play and some extra features as well.

boodadood · Oct 13, 2011

chennemann said:
Trichy - You are correct these are not quite to the super fuzz area. We are doing dtw and are running multiple strains this round. They are not all the same size plants or root structure. So we are playing it on the safe side and slightly over watering. We are getting super fuzz on some of the plants, they just are not in a good location to take pictures (we didn't set this up to take pictures )

If we wanted super fuzz all we would have to do is lower the mist time. Currently I think he is at 1.8 seconds on and 2 minutes off. If we would go 1 second and ~1:20 we would get more fuzz. The difference in growth from what your seeing in this picture and super fuzz doesn't seem that dramatic. Plus we would be risking underwater some of the plants that are already to the super fuzz area.

Another negative to the super fuzz is that it fills the buckets very quickly. For us getting super fuzz on some of the plants and keeping the others close is working great. Maybe we are only getting 95 percent of what is possible, but it seems to be working great. In an ideal world we run the same strain for all the plants from clones.

I believe one of the biggest issue is people seeing pictures like this or others and they want to get to this point right away. You need to start from the very beginning and keep working towards improving the roots. This plant is not one week old, it takes time to build great roots. Out start off like a regular areo cloner then we start to get it fuzzy as times goes on.

good work man...your results not only reinforce the possibilities that alot of us who are just starting out are striving for but also the point that has been emphasized here in this thread that control over the root chamber is everything....every plant is going to have its own needs and every chamber has its own performance characteristics...the only way to overcome all these obstacles is control and knowing how and when to adapt to adversities in the growing cycle

if you havent already i would also encourage you to start a grow journal and post your experiences with us all

thanks

BD

Trichy Bastard · Oct 13, 2011

Ok- since I've been thinking about it- I may as well post it here and see if anyone else has any comments. I have been hung up on my chamber design- sort of considering doing something different than the original Deck box I had mentioned. I started thinking about all of the little customizations and retrofitting involved, and began wondering what if I built a chamber from scratch? I thought about using traditional construction with 2x4's and plywood filled with spray foam for insulation. But Atomizer recently told me I should consider framing out a box with 2x2's and use some styrofoam panels from the hardware store. It got me thinking alot, and what I think I will now propose to do is this: I will use the styrofoam sheets as Atomizer suggested, but instead of framing them with wood, I will glue them together and fiberglass over the whole thing. In the end it will be a custom fiberglass box- strong, insulated, quiet, light, and easily modifyable. I figured on the bottom of the chamber I could lay a circular puck of wood in the middle of the fabric before applying the resin, and it would give a good tapered sink bottom effect. I will likely add in some wood strips around the top edge of the bin so the lid screws have something good to bite into, and will also build up an insulated protective channel for the solenoids/JG line around the upper part of the bin. I plan to add in a 3/4 water line in this channel incase in the future I ever need to recirculate a conduit of cold water from my chiller to keep the JG lines cool to control pod temps. The top will be replaceable in case I ever want to redesign my netpot configuration. Lastly I still want to incorporate some sort of door on the side of the chamber for getting a good view of the roots and access to the mist nozzles. I have never fiberglassed anything before, but I have worked with epoxy resins for other projects. It doesn't seem too complicated actually- and I think 1 or 2 weekends from now can be complete. Of course I'll add in some UV stabilizers to the outer epoxy to protect from sunlight. So- what does everyone think?

Trichy Bastard · Oct 13, 2011

Also- I was thinking that Light may penetrate through the styrofoam/fiberglass- so since I was planning on using 2 plys of styrofoam in the walls anyway, I will just seal in some aluminum foil between the 2 sheets, and perhaps this will also block additional radiant heat based on the same principle reflectix uses.

boodadood · Oct 13, 2011

ive worked with fiberglass before man...and i can suggest that you practice a bit before committing to your frame....experiment with your resin mixes until you find the perfect cure youre looking for...you dont want it too soft or too hard...also remember the bubbles will kill you...get every micron of air you can out of your layup or voids will form and it will crack up easily with wear and tear...of course you could just thicken it up a bit and not worry about that but assuming you want to do it nice and without excess glass

theres alot of info out there in boat building for this...that is how i ended up working with it...years ago

i think its a good plan all in all...you are considering insulation, future water chilling, etc...it all comes down to what you are comfortable in doing and how much DIY you want to deal with

boodadood · Oct 13, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
Also- I was thinking that Light may penetrate through the styrofoam/fiberglass- so since I was planning on using 2 sheets thick styrofoam in the walls anyway, I will just seal in some aluminum foil between the 2 sheets, and perhaps this will also block additional radiant heat based on the same principle reflectix uses.

thats a clever idea...i would work with the aluminum layer first and make sure it bonds properly to the glass and resin..with fiberglass rigs its all about your mix

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