Trump's Disqualification Trial

Does the 14th Amendment prohibit Trump from running for president?

Katie Couric talks with Laurence Tribe, professor emeritus of constitutional law at Harvard University, about whether the 14th Amendment prevents Donald Trump from running for president. They also discuss the state and federal trials that Trump is facing.

Let's talk about Trump and the 14th Amendment....

DIY-HP-LED said:

… federalists, not magats

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the distinction is indistinct.

So, the president can overthrow the government and in effect change the constitution or get rid of it the second time around if he fails the first time, sweet. He can pardon himself too from what I hear, because how else could he get out of federal prison if he is elected? Let's see, America is constitutionally helpless before Donald, lady liberty another of his rape victims denied justice. We must parse the founder's words and divine their intentions while eschewing common sense and the ability to think for oneself and respond to dynamic conditions. Honoring the intentions of people who died 200 years ago is no substitute for thinking on your own feet and dealing with current realities.

If the SCOTUS doesn't disqualify him and he wins the nomination and presidency, Roberts will be swearing him in inside a federal prison cell. He will hand Roberts a self-pardon and walk out of his cell while the court takes time to consider it, until they are invited to the WH for a little target practice, another self-pardon and what do you know, his new judges say he can do what he wants, since he had some target practice on the senate too!

Having a dictator take over was the founder's intention after all! They just wasted their time with the checks and balances stuff!


Colorado judge rules Trump engaged in insurrection, but is NOT disqualified form holding office?

A Colorado judge has rule that the evidence presented during the course of a trial proves that Donald Trump engaged in an insurrection against the United States.

Judge Sarah Wallace spends 95 pages of her 102-page ruling meticulously detailing the evidence supporting her findings and conclusions that Trump did indeed engage in an insurrection against the United States. But in the last few pages of her ruling, she says that while there "are persuasive arguments on both side" of the disqualification issue, "it appears to the Court that for whatever reason the drafters of Section Three (of the 14th Amendment) did not intend to include (for disqualification purposes) a person who had only taken the Presidential Oath." And accordingly, Judge Wallace declined to find that Trump was disqualified form holding office in the future.

This video discusses the implications of Judge Wallace's factual findings and legal conclusions, and what the appellate court might now do with the case on appeal.

cannabineer said:

the distinction is indistinct.

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Trump blew the American conservative movement apart along with the republican party, most of them have no political home anymore and we see lots of former republican conservatives on TV. They are split on Ukraine, Israel, funding the government and on Trump, they are big supporters of Israel but have a neo-Nazi wing. Most conservatives are now independents and most of America's white trash are republicans, who backfilled the conservatives who left. The independents are tractable on facts and policy, the magats are a cult and culture warriors. Extreme wealth imbalance and the new gilded age have destroyed their ideology, and they are reduced to conning the poor with culture wars, lying, cheating and stealing while serving the superrich with ever more tax breaks and deregulation.

I mean look at their convulsions in the past decade or so, from Dubya to Trump, family values, character counts, and Jesus as your best buddy, to the epitome of the 7 deadly sins riding an escalator down to Hell. Look at the GOP house FFS, a collection of antisocial miscreants, psychos and narcissists who can't get their shit together and are incapable of governing.

The primary intention of the founders was to keep a tyrant from arising, hence the division of powers between the parts of the federal government and between the states and the federal government. This is inherent in the very structure of the government the constitution created. So, if someone wants to divine the intentions of the founders, that would be a good place to start. The only path to tyranny in America is the presidency and the office was given even more powers by congress, who can also take them back. If the constitution allows the president to overthrow the government, then I guess all those people acting under his orders are not guilty too, including the rioters on J6. I mean if what Trump did was constitutional just for him, then no crimes were committed in the attempt by those under his command. You keep getting endless chances until you win and end the constitution altogether.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Trump blew the American conservative movement apart along with the republican party, most of them have no political home anymore and we see lots of former republican conservatives on TV. They are split on Ukraine, Israel, funding the government and on Trump, they are big supporters of Israel but have a neo-Nazi wing. Most conservatives are now independents and most of America's white trash are republicans, who backfilled the conservatives who left. The independents are tractable on facts and policy, the magats are a cult and culture warriors. Extreme wealth imbalance and the new gilded age have destroyed their ideology, and they are reduced to conning the poor with culture wars, lying, cheating and stealing while serving the superrich with ever more tax breaks and deregulation.

I mean look at their convulsions in the past decade or so, from Dubya to Trump, family values, character counts, and Jesus as your best buddy, to the epitome of the 7 deadly sins riding an escalator down to Hell. Look at the GOP house FFS, a collection of antisocial miscreants, psychos and narcissists who can't get their shit together and are incapable of governing.

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I would say that that man “blowing the Republicans/conservatives apart” is inaccurate.

I suggest instead that what he did is tear the mask of civility off of a movement that was already on a course toward authoritarian rejection of the rule of law.

cannabineer said:

I would say that that man “blowing the Republicans/conservatives apart” is inaccurate.

I suggest instead that what he did is tear the mask of civility off of a movement that was already on a course toward authoritarian rejection of the rule of law.

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He was the spark they filled the party with tinder and gasoline and when it went off the good people remaining ran for their lives. The still have neo-Nazis in the "pro-Israel" party and it is the home of antisemites in America. The democrats have a pro-Palestinian wing with it is more anti-Zionist than antisemite, youth in particular are sympathizing with the Palestinians. The republicans attracted bigots since they opposed voting rights and it got worse with Nixon and the later wholesale conversion of the south from traditional democrat/Dixiecrat to republican. That's when it shifted from ideology and policy to bigotry and culture wars.

DIY-HP-LED said:

He was the spark they filled the party with tinder and gasoline and when it went off the good people remaining ran for their lives. The still have neo-Nazis in the "pro-Israel" party and it is the home of antisemites in America. The democrats have a pro-Palestinian wing with it is more anti-Zionist than antisemite, youth in particular are sympathizing with the Palestinians. The republicans attracted bigots since they opposed voting rights and it got worse with Nixon and the later wholesale conversion of the south from traditional democrat/Dixiecrat to republican. That's when it shifted from ideology and policy to bigotry and culture wars.

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In my not very informed opinion, after Eisenhower the conservative money (the bosses of very military-industrial cartel of which he warned) made their rudder hard right.

We see this in the progression from Nixon/Ford to Reagan (tax cuts, voodoo supply-side economics, an embrace of the dominionist theocratic agenda) to Bush (bye-bye Glass-Steagall) to reBush (a new agency with the word Homeland in it; echoes of das Vaterland) to that Russian asset in the oval room and his completely-suborned legislature.

Now we have the circus of unabashed fascists like Gan and Boebs and Pedobear and Vivektomy and Gym all scrabbling for the orange Satan’s imprimatur.

It’s enough to shift a halfway attentive observer from moderate Republican (now listed as extinct) to full social progressive who watches in frank terror as the nation refuses to shake itself awake (woke?) to the severity of the threat.

Behold a not-so-subtle twist on the Nazi banner flown at the Capitol riot.

cannabineer said:

In my not very informed opinion, after Eisenhower the conservative money (the bosses of very military-industrial cartel of which he warned) made their rudder hard right.

We see this in the progression from Nixon/Ford to Reagan (tax cuts, voodoo supply-side economics, an embrace of the dominionist theocratic agenda) to Bush (bye-bye Glass-Steagall) to reBush (a new agency with the word Homeland in it; echoes of das Vaterland) to that Russian asset in the oval room and his completely-suborned legislature.

Now we have the circus of unabashed fascists like Gan and Boebs and Pedobear and Vivektomy and Gym all scrabbling for the orange Satan’s imprimatur.

It’s enough to shift a halfway attentive observer from moderate Republican (now listed as extinct) to full social progressive who watches in frank terror as the nation refuses to shake itself awake (woke?) to the severity of the threat.

Behold a not-so-subtle twist on the Nazi banner flown at the Capitol riot.

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Nixon was a crook and the Gipper was a grifter, it was all about conning the base with Jesus and the culture wars from then on. As their real policy positions became untenable their culture wars craziness and bigotry increased. The were already a grift by the time Trump showed up with a better grift. Obama primed the GOP and filled it with racists over 8 years, while the increasing bigotry drove the self-respecting out, Trump finished off the good people left in the GOP and attracted even worse white trash. The GOP went full fascist with Trump, it was already a culture wars con to serve the super-rich with tax cuts and deregulation while pandering to every bigot in America. It is all about exploiting people's character flaws and moral failings to use against them, screw them over while blaming, minorities, the democrats and "liberals".

cannabineer said:

In my not very informed opinion, after Eisenhower the conservative money (the bosses of very military-industrial cartel of which he warned) made their rudder hard right.

We see this in the progression from Nixon/Ford to Reagan (tax cuts, voodoo supply-side economics, an embrace of the dominionist theocratic agenda) to Bush (bye-bye Glass-Steagall) to reBush (a new agency with the word Homeland in it; echoes of das Vaterland) to that Russian asset in the oval room and his completely-suborned legislature.

Now we have the circus of unabashed fascists like Gan and Boebs and Pedobear and Vivektomy and Gym all scrabbling for the orange Satan’s imprimatur.

It’s enough to shift a halfway attentive observer from moderate Republican (now listed as extinct) to full social progressive who watches in frank terror as the nation refuses to shake itself awake (woke?) to the severity of the threat.

Behold a not-so-subtle twist on the Nazi banner flown at the Capitol riot.

View attachment 5344959

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If someone is blaming Biden for not paying off their student loan or the fact, they have to even get one, maybe they shouldn't have had one in the first place, since they are not smart enough for college.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Let's talk about Trump and the 14th Amendment....

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Let's talk about human trafficking charges. Can you forgive something like that? NOt me. F that guy

DIY-HP-LED said:

If someone is blaming Biden for not paying off their student loan or the fact, they have to even get one, maybe they shouldn't have had one in the first place, since they are not smart enough for college.

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With the college-student loan cartel finely tuned to make money and not graduates equipped for anything other than the bottom tier of a service economy workforce, there’s no lower barrier any longer to smarts or skills.

cannabineer said:

With the college-student loan cartel finely tuned to make money and not graduates equipped for anything other than the bottom tier of a service economy workforce, there’s no lower barrier any longer to smarts or skills.

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Like many institutions in America, it is broken, and republicans broke it and are working their way down to day care in the school system. If they can't fuck it up, they will defund it. Back in my day education was cheap, community colleges were free for the most part and in the states, state colleges offered free or nearly free education, students used to be able to work their way through a lot of universities on summer jobs. Even in Canada the cost of education has increased dramatically along with the services other than teaching offered by the university. Prima Donnas get tenue and underpaid graduate students do the actual teaching for a pittance.

pilto said:

Let's talk about human trafficking charges. Can you forgive something like that? NOt me. F that guy

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did we listen to the same video?

He conceded that under a literal reading of the 14th amendment Trump did not take an oath to support the constitution and cannot be disqualified. This is objectively true.

He also conceded that written statements made at the time by the people who wrote the 14th indicate they did not intend such a strict interpretation, But that's not how the judge ruled.

So it doesn't matter how we feel about Trump running for office or his other crimes like "human trafficking" which is not even part of the disqualification clause. The law is being written regarding how to disqualify a person under the 14th and the first ruling on the matter is that Trump is not disqualified. This won't be the last word on the subject. For now, it's Trump, 1 and people who support the Constitution and democracy in the US, 0.

cannabineer said:

With the college-student loan cartel finely tuned to make money and not graduates equipped for anything other than the bottom tier of a service economy workforce, there’s no lower barrier any longer to smarts or skills.

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These are interesting times regarding jobs for the college educated. A diploma isn't a union card that is a ticket to high paying white collar jobs. Connections, gender and race matter, they shouldn't but they do. So too does the specific degree. Also the mettle of the graduate. Also luck. Sometimes the college degree pays off, other times it doesn't. But that doesn't mean there is no value in the degree. I think there are intangible benefits to a good education that can't be quantified economically.

I agree with DIY that anybody who graduates from HS should be able to to to college for free. Maybe a few years in to spiff up the portfolio in JC for those who don't meet a minimum requirement for grades or perhaps some other qualifying criteria. But simply having a degree shouldn't guarantee anything other than that the applicant did enough work to complete the course work required for the degree.

Fogdog said:

These are interesting times regarding jobs for the college educated. A diploma isn't a union card that is a ticket to high paying white collar jobs. Connections, gender and race matter, they shouldn't but they do. So too does the specific degree. Also the mettle of the graduate. Also luck. Sometimes the college degree pays off, other times it doesn't. But that doesn't mean there is no value in the degree. I think there are intangible benefits to a good education that can't be quantified economically.

I agree with DIY that anybody who graduates from HS should be able to to to college for free. Maybe a few years in to spiff up the portfolio in JC for those who don't meet a minimum requirement for grades or perhaps some other qualifying criteria. But simply having a degree shouldn't guarantee anything other than that the applicant did enough work to complete the course work required for the degree.

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I also believe that (access to) higher education should not be dictated by money.

However there needs to be a mechanism by which the achievers are identified and taken further.

As a crude analogy, the founders wished to secure a right to “the pursuit of happiness”. Success in that pursuit was up to the pursuer.

Access to higher education should be universal imo. Success in higher education needs to be filtered through a student’s performance. It’s not a simple thing.

cannabineer said:

I also believe that (access to) higher education should not be dictated by money.

However there needs to be a mechanism by which the achievers are identified and taken further.

As a crude analogy, the founders wished to secure a right to “the pursuit of happiness”. Success in that pursuit was up to the pursuer.

Access to higher education should be universal imo. Success in higher education needs to be filtered through a student’s performance. It’s not a simple thing.

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Access to higher education is a slippery slope. Next, they'll be asking for food and shelter.

topcat said:

Access to higher education is a slippery slope. Next, they'll be asking for food and shelter.

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I’ve heard Republicans say that with the sort of bitter inflection that suggests that that is a Bad Thing.

Perhaps the most offensive extension of this attitude came from some Florida Man (Scott, maybe) who argued Social Security beneficiaries should have to work to keep their awards.

He did not carve out disability recipients, which highlights the prejudice of today’s Heritage Foundation admirers that someone’s value is proportional to one’s paycheck. It is a totalibertarian article of faith.

“If you don’t have a paying job, please die now.”