Vermicompost vs. Hot Compost

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 15, 2016

hyroot said:
Heres a thought on the whole thing.

Everyone puts coco in their worm bin as bedding. The coco in the worm bin breaks down faster than in a compost pile. There probably isn't coco in the compost pile. So when coco breaks down it releases potassium.

Worms break down organic material faster. Once compost is broken down it should be just as readily available. So he might have taken the term hot compost literally. As in not composted yet.

He did say "regular" compost, when comparing vermicompost.. I said "hot" compost. That detail I do remember. He did mention a few other things, but there was emphasis on the action of the worms.. I'm sorry I didn't record the brief conversation.

GreenSanta · Mar 15, 2016

Jeff didnt say it has more potassium he says it has more readily available potassium... in other words, vermicompost is richer and microbes and bacteria which helps make nutrients more readily available.

Worm bin does not have to be fed cardboard, you guys gotta look up this guy:

btw the recipe could still be the same, 2 piles of hot compost that are exactly the same ingredients, after compost is finish pile number 2 get inoculated with worms.

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

GreenSanta said:
Jeff didnt say it has more potassium he says it has more readily available potassium... in other words, vermicompost is richer and microbes and bacteria which helps make nutrients more readily available.
btw the recipe could still be the same, 2 piles of hot compost that are exactly the same ingredients, after compost is finish pile number 2 get inoculated with worms.

Good stuff, Im going to look into getting expired produce to do the same thing.

I'm gonna have to take a closer look at the vermi vs compost with a microscope. See how different the microlife is.

GreenSanta · Mar 16, 2016

not sure how he gets his produce, I think around here there is a law that says grocery stores can't give it away (some liability issue) so it all goes to the city compost ....try small privately owned grocery stores. Thats what I do, not getting a lot though...

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

GreenSanta said:
not sure how he gets his produce, I think around here there is a law that says grocery stores can't give it away (some liability issue) so it all goes to the city compost ....try small privately owned grocery stores. Thats what I do, not getting a lot though...

Good point... my buddy at work was getting expired food for his hogs from the food bank food "not for human consumption". But to be honest, he had a truckload of expired ice cream, ben and jerrys, and I ate a few pints, no problem. But he was also getting produce that was ok, and that would have been ideal for vermicompost. I haven't talked to him in a long time ever since I switched jobs.

Rrog · Mar 16, 2016

Vermicompost is superior because of the worm's contributions. Compounds secreted as well as microbes harbored significantly boost the plants immune response. This response is measured not just in the root zone, but the leaf zone as well. That simply points to the huge systemic influence the VC has.

Vermicompost is not castings. VC is a bit rougher and teaming with micro-beasties.

youraveragehorticulturist · Mar 16, 2016

I don't want to muddy up the waters, but;

A compost pile is a pretty good place to find worms.

That dude's worm operation looks like a giant version of a compost pile. He even mentions how hot the pile gets.

It's like a finger, pointing the way to the moon. Focus on the finger, and you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

youraveragehorticulturist said:
I don't want to muddy up the waters, but;

A compost pile is a pretty good place to find worms.

That dude's worm operation looks like a giant version of a compost pile. He even mentions how hot the pile gets.

It's like a finger, pointing the way to the moon. Focus on the finger, and you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

No those temps are too low to be considered for a typical hot compost pile. Internal temp needs to be around 140 plus, that would kill the worms. Vermicompost can be run without having the ideal C:N ratio. So its more flexible, but has to be run at a lower temp. I dont believe actinomyces can do its thing at low temps. (my opinion anyways)

Not to mention vermicompost can be scaled smaller, a regular hot compost pile has a minimum size.

Not to say you cant run one without the other. Do your regular compost with the proper C:N balance, then introduce the worms AFTER the pile has gone cold. But if vermicompost is already "ready" vs regular compost might as well just blend that into the soil instead of going another step with the worms added to the compost, if nutrition availability is already better than regular compost just go with vermicompost.

greasemonkeymann · Mar 16, 2016

youraveragehorticulturist said:
I don't want to muddy up the waters, but;

A compost pile is a pretty good place to find worms.

That dude's worm operation looks like a giant version of a compost pile. He even mentions how hot the pile gets.

It's like a finger, pointing the way to the moon. Focus on the finger, and you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

exactly!
I've never seen a compost pile NOT teeming with worms..

GrowerGoneWild said:
He did say "regular" compost, when comparing vermicompost.. I said "hot" compost. That detail I do remember. He did mention a few other things, but there was emphasis on the action of the worms.. I'm sorry I didn't record the brief conversation.

And I've also never seen a compost fully composted without going through a "hot" portion (thermophilic portion of composting)
I think it's a "requirement" really.. I mean at least the types that are assembled correctly (the c:n ratio)
unless you are doing a leaf mold or something..
I mean I AM aware of people doing "cold" compost pile, but those are WAY off from what most pot-growers use, which is usually a pile predicated on mass amounts of leaves, which are LOADED with pretty much everything..
the problem really is the actual definition of compost is SOOOOO vague...
I mean you could in theory make a human body compost, a human waste compost, shit the landfills are nothing but gigantic toxic composts.. but a "compost" nonetheless...

greasemonkeymann · Mar 16, 2016

GrowerGoneWild said:
No those temps are too low to be considered for a typical hot compost pile. Internal temp needs to be around 140 plus, that would kill the worms. Vermicompost can be run without having the ideal C:N ratio. So its more flexible, but has to be run at a lower temp. I dont believe actinomyces can do its thing at low temps. (my opinion anyways)

Not to mention vermicompost can be scaled smaller, a regular hot compost pile has a minimum size.

Not to say you cant run one without the other. Do your regular compost with the proper C:N balance, then introduce the worms AFTER the pile has gone cold. But if vermicompost is already "ready" vs regular compost might as well just blend that into the soil instead of going another step with the worms added to the compost, if nutrition availability is already better than regular compost just go with vermicompost.

the worms stick to the edges, they can sense the heat..
I've turned a steaming pile, hot enough to warm your hands on, and the worms are at the bottoms and edges.
those lil guys are smarter than we think..
but EVERY pile I've assembled or seem assembled has gone through a thermo phase, they sorta have to, the microbes involved in that phase are what breaks down the majority of the hard stems/woods/ etc.

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
the worms stick to the edges, they can sense the heat..
I've turned a steaming pile, hot enough to warm your hands on, and the worms are at the bottoms and edges.
those lil guys are smarter than we think..
but EVERY pile I've assembled or seem assembled has gone through a thermo phase, they sorta have to, the microbes involved in that phase are what breaks down the majority of the hard stems/woods/ etc.

Same thing I've been saying, worms are going to stay out of the heat until things are better for them. If worms can yield a better product in the same amount of time, might as well go with a vermicompost. I have nothing against compost, but I'm leaning towards vermicompost if I'm going to create something thats going to add to soil tilth.

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
I mean I AM aware of people doing "cold" compost pile, but those are WAY off from what most pot-growers use, which is usually a pile predicated on mass amounts of leaves, which are LOADED with pretty much everything.

Agree with you there, the cold piles, especially here take a LONG time to decomp. And I only use it in veggie gardens.

greasemonkeymann · Mar 16, 2016

GrowerGoneWild said:
Same thing I've been saying, worms are going to stay out of the heat until things are better for them. If worms can yield a better product in the same amount of time, might as well go with a vermicompost. I have nothing against compost, but I'm leaning towards vermicompost if I'm going to create something thats going to add to soil tilth.

like I said, i'd NEVER go without both, but I use much more compost than EWC in my mix.
the consistency is better for my liking, ewc is just too thick, the compost is like billions of tiny sponges, they act like aeration as well as water retainers, it's the greatest stuff
the ewc is crucial, absolutely 100% not to be overlooked.
and in NO WAY am I dogging it, ewc is almost magical...
BUT if I was to choose between them? i'd take compost all day long.

whitebb2727 · Mar 16, 2016

I also went no till on my outdoor vegetable garden. I tilled one last time a couple years ago and added a few truck loads of cow, horse, and donkey manure. It had hay and saw dust in it, mostly broken down. I tilled in a bunch of composted leaves. Alfalfa pellets and straw. Quite a few bales of spagnum peat moss. Of course a few 50 lb bags of oyster shell and some lime.

I just mulch it now. Plenty of worms to do the work for me.

GreenSanta · Mar 16, 2016

youraveragehorticulturist said:
I don't want to muddy up the waters, but;

A compost pile is a pretty good place to find worms.

That dude's worm operation looks like a giant version of a compost pile. He even mentions how hot the pile gets.

It's like a finger, pointing the way to the moon. Focus on the finger, and you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

he says how careful he has to move the stuff around so it doesnt heat up. worms can take a bit of heat but generally they will migrate to cooler zones. That might have been in another video. He always feeds on one side and harvest on the other, the windrow moves 1 ft a month to the left he explains. That's not a typical compost pile.

Also, if you start a pile in a sterile environment there will not be composting worms in it. They are not native to North America. If you find lots of red wiggler worms on your property you can thank the birds, your neighbors, or previous owners. What some people are doing now is a hot compost and then once the pile has cool down they inoculate with worms or wait for them to move in (if present)

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
like I said, i'd NEVER go without both, but I use much more compost than EWC in my mix.
the consistency is better for my liking, ewc is just too thick, the compost is like billions of tiny sponges, they act like aeration as well as water retainers, it's the greatest stuff
the ewc is crucial, absolutely 100% not to be overlooked.
and in NO WAY am I dogging it, ewc is almost magical...
BUT if I was to choose between them? i'd take compost all day long.

I kinda like the concentrated nature of EWC, I can add a little bit to a high quality soil, and it makes alot of difference. Respect still given to your thoughts on compost.

GrowerGoneWild · Mar 16, 2016

GreenSanta said:
Also, if you start a pile in a sterile environment there will not be composting worms in it. They are not native to North America. If you find lots of red wiggler worms on your property you can thank the birds, your neighbors, or previous owners. What some people are doing now is a hot compost and then once the pile has cool down they inoculate with worms or wait for them to move in (if present)

Yup, some people have compost tumblers.. no worms will get into that until you put them there.

greasemonkeymann · Mar 16, 2016

GreenSanta said:
he says how careful he has to move the stuff around so it doesnt heat up. worms can take a bit of heat but generally they will migrate to cooler zones. That might have been in another video. He always feeds on one side and harvest on the other, the windrow moves 1 ft a month to the left he explains. That's not a typical compost pile.

Also, if you start a pile in a sterile environment there will not be composting worms in it. They are not native to North America. If you find lots of red wiggler worms on your property you can thank the birds, your neighbors, or previous owners. What some people are doing now is a hot compost and then once the pile has cool down they inoculate with worms or wait for them to move in (if present)

that is partially true, I have found for some reason the native earthworms are attracted to my pile as well.
I have found some conflicting information regarding worms, merely by observing their nature.
Did you guys know that almost ALL worms in America aren't native?
interesting shit..
apparently 10,000 yrs ago the plesticene ice-age wiped em out, and they started coming back on the settlers ships..
http://ecosystems.serc.si.edu/earthworm-invaders/

DonBrennon · Mar 16, 2016

Absolutely quality conversation guy's, that's right, all your worms came from Europe with the pioneers. Lol

I made my own compost tumbler last year, but it was a bit of a death trap TBH, I took all the skin off my shin with it getting a bit too close lol. Anyway, before winter the door opened on it while it was up side down and got abandoned. I recently went back to check on it and composting worms had invaded it, so I forked it all back into the bin, threw what few available greens i had in and some alfalfa pellets. Gonna have this bin for my veggie garden

Vermicompost vs. Hot Compost

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