Water Question, RO, Distilled, pH

tSunami13 said:

From my experiences with fish tanks, the tap water will hold the pH longer then the RO water. Just think your RO cup is very low PPM water with acid in it, as soon as something acts with it, the pH will become unstable. The tap water cup that took a lot of pH down has all the minerals in it to "buffer" the acid and therefore will not fluctuate as much when other things are added. Take your RO cup for example, put one drop of an alkaline substance in it and watch that pH swing. Put the same drop in the tap water cup and it the pH won't do much. That should really show that nothing is "buffering" the RO water.

EX.. RO water 7.0 pH, add one drop pH down say you get 6.0 pH, now add one drop pH up and shouldn't you be back at 7.0 pH, basically canceling each other out? In the sense nothing is buffering the water it is free to change rapidly and is easily affected by outside influences.

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You seem to be missing the point that tap water will hold a wrong pH just as much as it will a right one. Or rather, there is one pH it will hold and it might be the wrong one. Zero water is unbuffered by definition, we all know that. But it doesn't stay zero, it gets nutes added to it. Nutes that if they are good are designed with buffers at the right pH. But everyone should use what works for them and only those who aren't certain of that need to consider all the alternatives.

tSunami13 said:

I just was looking at my fish tank chems and for me to lower the pH I would use a Neutral 7.0 pH buffer made up of phosphates, and then add an Acid buffer in its ratio to lower the pH. Most of the stuff though is buffers with very little acid added to drop the pH but uses the buffers to hold it steady. Just imagine putting in clean RO water in a fish tank and then they decide to pee in it, something is going to happen to that pH. It's all the buffer stuff that keeps the pH steady so when fish dirty up the water it doesn't drastically change the pH.

What kind of RO unit are you using? I worked at a big coffee shop chain and the RO unit there was a 4-1 ratio. In other words it took 4 gallons tap to make 1 gallon RO. This RO unit was on the extreme end, and not very environmental friendly.

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thats about what my ro is 4 to 1

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I'm kinda late and dont know if this was already mentioned but I use Ro water for hydroponics and I have no problems with ph fluctuations,as long as I keep the res topped off my ph rarely drifts.I change my res every 2 weeks and I might adjust 1-2 times if that.As long as your res is big enough and kept topped off ph shouldnt drift much.People that complain about ph drifting in my experience have small reservoirs.

jcdws602 said:

I'm kinda late and dont know if this was already mentioned but I use Ro water for hydroponics and I have no problems with ph fluctuations,as long as I keep the res topped off my ph rarely drifts.I change my res every 2 weeks and I might adjust 1-2 times if that.As long as your res is big enough and kept topped off ph shouldnt drift much.People that complain about ph drifting in my experience have small reservoirs.

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How big is your res and how many plants? For the very reason you state I'm thinking of going to a larger res, perhaps 12-15 gallons and six plants.

11 plants 20 gallons in the res I top every 2-3 days all the way to the level it started out at,I have it marked.I still would like a 25-30 gallons in the res, I plan on upgrading next grow.

I am not missing any point. RO water is fine if you like paying for it. I am fortunate enough to have very good water out of the tap, plus I drink it and I am still living. (What's more important yourself or these plants, I myself am more important then my plants) For myself I am happy with things being in a range. I am not perfect and therefore do not expect to recreate it either. Sure jorge can call his book the bible, but I think he might be a better journalist/writer/marketer then a botanist/grower (have you seen all the ads in the back of the book? and I still have to pay $30 bucks for it?) Don't really see to much growing info from the actual breeders. That's my grain of salt to his book, plus ED has some conflicting points. So who's right? Just as long as everyone is happy with there result that's all that matters and for as cheap as possible.

Illegal Smile said:

You seem to be missing the point that tap water will hold a wrong pH just as much as it will a right one. Or rather, there is one pH it will hold and it might be the wrong one. Zero water is unbuffered by definition, we all know that. But it doesn't stay zero, it gets nutes added to it. Nutes that if they are good are designed with buffers at the right pH. But everyone should use what works for them and only those who aren't certain of that need to consider all the alternatives.

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I'm not so sure that is a good arguement. IF the tap water WILL hold a pH longer, we just adjust it to the pH we want it to be.

Roseman said:

I'm not so sure that is a good arguement. IF the tap water WILL hold a pH longer, we just adjust it to the pH we want it to be.

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But the facts are not that tap water or any buffered water will hold "A" pH longer. The facts are that it will hold "a certain" pH longer. And which pH it will gravitate toward depends on the chemical make-up of the buffer that's in there, whether it is there intentionally or by accident. The difference is that when it is there intentionally you can know "what" pH it is buffered for and that's why we have pH buffers specifically labeled for anywhere from 5.2 to 8.5. You cannot take an 8.5 stabilizer, add it to water, any water, then lower that water to 5.7 and expect the stabilizing to now operate around 5.7. There is no universal stabilizer that, no matter the pH of the water you put it in, will hold that pH there.

At least those are the conclusions of my research and I've been doing a lot of it. Why do you think Jorge recommends zero water and eschews tap water?

Illegal Smile said:

Why do you think Jorge recommends zero water and eschews tap water?

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I have wondered that same thing?

Roseman said:

I have wondered that same thing?

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Maybe, like an artist, he wants to start with a blank slate and create what he wants from the ground up?

Jorge kinda has to recommend RO water as it is universal. Heck maybe he is invested with an RO company and gets kickbacks?? There are too many variables for him to cover if he recommends tap water. It is much easier to start with a blank canvas when the audience ranges from noob to expert, so everyone can understand. Once you become more familiar with your water then it is easier to understand what is needed to modify it. Jorge if he grew learned by following what was known and then experimenting with it, just like we are! Kinda how FIMing came about and the Lucas method.

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I ll get to my version of this expirment soon i promise. i do have few comments and questions from being gone,...First what this bubble head group thing?....Second I see someon said they have an RO machine that makes 4.8 water which means your filter is broken as RO water filtration is meant to be a neutral ph 7 any lower or higher your ro isnt working proper....Another thing to be corrected most nutes dont have buffers in them AN is one of the first to just release auto ph stabilizer ph nutes...then in regards to buffers they dont make a ph stay at one place the buffer means it helps the ph stay at the level you set the water at and keeps it there. Its not like they have a ph 7 buffer a ph 5 buffer and so forth. the buffer just helps maintain your set level ph whatever it is. It basically will see the water has been made to a ph of lets say 5.8 and then help the actual ph variation.Now you can hit a buffer limit if the ppm drifts beyond the buffers particle limit which they no longer can bind and act as a buffer which then makes them useless as they have been overtaken then they flux all over. I hope to do my expirment shortly and I have decided to add well water and another cities water my buddy has used for years also which is a different supply then my own.

FilthyFletch said:

I ll get to my version of this expirment soon i promise. i do have few comments and questions from being gone,...First what this bubble head group thing?....Second I see someon said they have an RO machine that makes 4.8 water which means your filter is broken as RO water filtration is meant to be a neutral ph 7 any lower or higher your ro isnt working proper....Another thing to be corrected most nutes dont have buffers in them AN is one of the first to just release auto ph stabilizer ph nutes...then in regards to buffers they dont make a ph stay at one place the buffer means it helps the ph stay at the level you set the water at and keeps it there. Its not like they have a ph 7 buffer a ph 5 buffer and so forth. the buffer just helps maintain your set level ph whatever it is. It basically will see the water has been made to a ph of lets say 5.8 and then help the actual ph variation.Now you can hit a buffer limit if the ppm drifts beyond the buffers particle limit which they no longer can bind and act as a buffer which then makes them useless as they have been overtaken then they flux all over. I hope to do my expirment shortly and I have decided to add well water and another cities water my buddy has used for years also which is a different supply then my own.

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But Fletch, they do! http://www.novalek.com/kordon/pH_products/kordon_pH_stabilizers.html

You can also find 6.5 and 5.2 (used for making beer) and yesterday I posted that I had found a 6.0 stabilizer. Obviously a stabilizer/buffer does NOT hold a pH wherever you set it. They are made for a given pH and will tend to keep it there once you get it there initially. If you have tap water that naturally seems to stabilize pH at 5.7 then by all means use it, I sure would! But giving newbs the idea that they can use tap water, and then adjust pH and it will stay there is frought with danger I think. They, unlike you, might have tap water with a natural stabilization at 8.5 and they will have to buy pH Down by the gallon.

I've had pH issues running RO water alone with both AN and GH's Flora series nutes. When I was talking about it with my grow store guy, he told me that he ran about 20-25% raw tap water just for the pH buffering. It's worked well for me; you might want to try this in the experiment as well.

freddiemoney said:

I've had pH issues running RO water alone with both AN and GH's Flora series nutes. When I was talking about it with my grow store guy, he told me that he ran about 20-25% raw tap water just for the pH buffering. It's worked well for me; you might want to try this in the experiment as well.

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I think you are right on, + REP 4 u, THAT is the consenus I see and and read and hear most often.

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freddiemoney said:

I've had pH issues running RO water alone with both AN and GH's Flora series nutes. When I was talking about it with my grow store guy, he told me that he ran about 20-25% raw tap water just for the pH buffering. It's worked well for me; you might want to try this in the experiment as well.

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I've thought about that, but never tried it. It wouldn't take much. . . 20% tap would probably give me about 80 ppm water.

Roseman said:

I think you are right on, + REP 4 u, THAT is the consenus I see and and read and hear most often.

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Now it's 80% RO and 20% tap? Please share some links on the consensus because right here on RIU, the vast majority are using zero water. Anyway, like many things, I encourage people confused about what to do to go ahead and try your tap water, maybe you'll get lucky. You might not want to use your best seeds though. PS - I should add that the folks at AN (whose nutes I use now) and Humboldt (who I'm thinking of moving to) both say for hydro you should start with RO water and that their 3 part base adds all that needs to be added.