We are really screwed now!!

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
What happens is that the Fed is trying to curb deflation a little bit. The FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee) uses these "Open Market Operations" all the time to do small adjustments up or down similar to steering a car. There has been a deflationary trend and they are trying to fix it.

When inflation gets too high they sell treasuries (bonds) and that takes money out of the economy to shrink the monetary base and that will help to make very small changes to the inflation. Large companies are essentially tying up their money by placing it in the fed where it cannot circulate around the economy, thus not as much to go around.

Likewise when they buy the treasuries they are buying back the bonds that they have sold. This puts the money that they had already collected back into the companies that bought them in the first place which will help reduce deflation by increasing the amount of money in the system.

Even though for us that is a insane amount of money for the economy it really is not that big. They bought back those to inject some money into the system to help out the deflation that is happening now (funny how a few months ago everyone that has no clue about economics was worried about inflation with a 9% unemployment rate).
 

what... huh?

Active Member
I understand the economy less than McCain. I always feel left out of these... But I just had to come to the conclusion I simply don't get it.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I understand the economy less than McCain. I always feel left out of these... But I just had to come to the conclusion I simply don't get it.
Its not that bad. There is a somewhat long book, but it is very easy to follow and read, that can really help you out with it, it is called "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell.

They don't bother trying to teach all the graphs and formulas, but gives you a very easy to understand basics of how the economy moves.

I think that everyone should get a basic crash course of basic economics (real world applications) every year in high school so that they can have a better grasp of how everyday economics is in action.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Found this little article here, does anyone know what this means when it comes to the economy and what harm it could do?


http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/fed-buys-last-weeks-treasury-auction/23880

I gotta run to work.
That's not deflationary, you don't decrease inflation by buying debt. If the Federal Reserve was going to act in a deflationary way it would be selling bonds to pull cash out of circulation not purchasing bonds and pushing cash into circulation.

As far as the harm, it looks like it's just 4.7 Billion, against the trillions that have been dumped into the economy in an ill-conceived attempt to correct the problems of easy credit and easy cash by providing more easy cash and more easy credit. It's just the continuation of similar policies.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Its not that bad. There is a somewhat long book, but it is very easy to follow and read, that can really help you out with it, it is called "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell.

They don't bother trying to teach all the graphs and formulas, but gives you a very easy to understand basics of how the economy moves.

I think that everyone should get a basic crash course of basic economics (real world applications) every year in high school so that they can have a better grasp of how everyday economics is in action.
You're being ignored Hannimal, you're incompetent. You talk about how your economics doesn't involve politics but everytime you open your mouth to discuss economics you reveal how deeply entrenched politics is in your economic theory with ideas such as ability to pay and that kind of imbecilic socialist claptrap.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
You're being ignored Hannimal, you're incompetent. You talk about how your economics doesn't involve politics but everytime you open your mouth to discuss economics you reveal how deeply entrenched politics is in your economic theory with ideas such as ability to pay and that kind of imbecilic socialist claptrap.
O...K....

You are wrong, but w/e. Point to something in my original post that has anything to do with politics. I was telling him what a open market operation is.

The problem is that you are so fired up and ready to argue for some conspiracy, you see stuff that is not there.
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
What happens is that the Fed is trying to curb deflation a little bit. The FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee) uses these "Open Market Operations" all the time to do small adjustments up or down similar to steering a car. There has been a deflationary trend and they are trying to fix it.

When inflation gets too high they sell treasuries (bonds) and that takes money out of the economy to shrink the monetary base and that will help to make very small changes to the inflation. Large companies are essentially tying up their money by placing it in the fed where it cannot circulate around the economy, thus not as much to go around.

Likewise when they buy the treasuries they are buying back the bonds that they have sold. This puts the money that they had already collected back into the companies that bought them in the first place which will help reduce deflation by increasing the amount of money in the system.

Even though for us that is a insane amount of money for the economy it really is not that big. They bought back those to inject some money into the system to help out the deflation that is happening now (funny how a few months ago everyone that has no clue about economics was worried about inflation with a 9% unemployment rate).
It's a shell game, and a house of cards. The USD only has value if people believe it does; as long as china and the Saudis continue to buy our debt, the house won't collapse, but some day - in our life times - it will. Think $100 loaf of bread.

They've been doing this since Nixon ended the gold standard - because there isn't enough gold in the world to cover the amount of debt the government needs to create - and it will continue for as long as the world continue to believe the US is good for it's debts.

We'll be bankrupt within 10 years
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
It's a shell game, and a house of cards.
I would say it is more hide and seek. Maybe leapfrog. Definantly not ring around the rosie though.

The USD only has value if people believe it does; as long as china and the Saudis continue to buy our debt, the house won't collapse,
Anything only has value if people believe it does. Gold doesn't mean anything to people unless you think it does. America's economy is much larger than chinas, and the Saudis don't even come close. They know that if one country is most likely to pay back their investments it is us. No other country has as much wealth as we do. Since the world uses the american dollar as the means to trade we always will have the ability to pay back, since we can just print the money.

But they know that we are also the least likely to flood the world with the money making such a high inflation that $100 a loaf of bread seems low and pay them back with a severely deflated dollar, thus ruining our economy with hyperinflation.

The reason why you hear about this now is that this stimulus package was insanely large to avoid he collapse of our financial system. But once they realized how it worked they passed their own stimulus packages.

We still are the best system to invest in, and that is why the stock market is above 9400 today.

They've been doing this since Nixon ended the gold standard - because there isn't enough gold in the world to cover the amount of debt the government needs to create - and it will continue for as long as the world continue to believe the US is good for it's debts.

We'll be bankrupt within 10 years
That is just fear mongering. America won't be bankrupt anytime soon.

I usually don't like to just cut and paste blogs, but this seems failry accurate:
In war, truth is the first casualty. --Aeschylus
Friday, December 29, 2006

What is America's total net worth?

Total value of all publicly traded American companies - about $15 trillion

Total value of America's natural resources - around $3 trillion?

Total value of American real estate - around $40 trillion?

But publicly traded companies own a large share of our natural resources and real estate, so that value is already reflected in their share price....hmmm.

Total value of America's infrastructure - $10 trillon?

Minus around $8 trillion in public debt and $2 trillion in consumer debt

Looks like a first-pass estimate/guess of America's total net worth is around $50-60 trillion.

That comes to around $200,000 per American.

Your share may vary, of course, but with America's per capita income of around $40,000...that would mean a 20% annual "return" on the average American's $200,000.

Not bad.
You have to be negative balance to go bankrupt. So that would mean we would have to lose around $50-$60 Trillion to go bankrupt.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
I would say it is more hide and seek. Maybe leapfrog. Definantly not ring around the rosie though.



Anything only has value if people believe it does. Gold doesn't mean anything to people unless you think it does. America's economy is much larger than chinas, and the Saudis don't even come close. They know that if one country is most likely to pay back their investments it is us. No other country has as much wealth as we do. Since the world uses the american dollar as the means to trade we always will have the ability to pay back, since we can just print the money.

But they know that we are also the least likely to flood the world with the money making such a high inflation that $100 a loaf of bread seems low and pay them back with a severely deflated dollar, thus ruining our economy with hyperinflation.

The reason why you hear about this now is that this stimulus package was insanely large to avoid he collapse of our financial system. But once they realized how it worked they passed their own stimulus packages.

We still are the best system to invest in, and that is why the stock market is above 9400 today.



That is just fear mongering. America won't be bankrupt anytime soon.

I usually don't like to just cut and paste blogs, but this seems failry accurate:


You have to be negative balance to go bankrupt. So that would mean we would have to lose around $50-$60 Trillion to go bankrupt.
You're forgetting the 60+ Trillion in unfunded future liabilities in Welfare and Social Security.

The United States is bankrupt and only surviving on credit.
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
I would say it is more hide and seek. Maybe leapfrog. Definantly not ring around the rosie though.



Anything only has value if people believe it does. Gold doesn't mean anything to people unless you think it does. America's economy is much larger than chinas, and the Saudis don't even come close. They know that if one country is most likely to pay back their investments it is us. No other country has as much wealth as we do. Since the world uses the american dollar as the means to trade we always will have the ability to pay back, since we can just print the money.

But they know that we are also the least likely to flood the world with the money making such a high inflation that $100 a loaf of bread seems low and pay them back with a severely deflated dollar, thus ruining our economy with hyperinflation.

The reason why you hear about this now is that this stimulus package was insanely large to avoid he collapse of our financial system. But once they realized how it worked they passed their own stimulus packages.

We still are the best system to invest in, and that is why the stock market is above 9400 today.



That is just fear mongering. America won't be bankrupt anytime soon.

I usually don't like to just cut and paste blogs, but this seems failry accurate:


You have to be negative balance to go bankrupt. So that would mean we would have to lose around $50-$60 Trillion to go bankrupt.
At the current rate of government spending, Medicare and Social security will bankrupt the country within 10 years. Unless taxes goes to 80% or something.

All fiat currencies become worthless in time.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
At the current rate of government spending, Medicare and Social security will bankrupt the country within 10 years. Unless taxes goes to 80% or something.
Ok show me. If you are so sure that this will happen you have had to actually see this data right, and are not just listening to someone else telling you this. So bring the numbers that show this could happen, and lets discuss it. Because if it is true it is VERY important and we need to make some serious changes. Or else find a new place to live.

All fiat currencies become worthless in time.
Very true, what goes up must come down. Somethings just take longer than others.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
Ok show me. If you are so sure that this will happen you have had to actually see this data right, and are not just listening to someone else telling you this. So bring the numbers that show this could happen, and lets discuss it. Because if it is true it is VERY important and we need to make some serious changes. Or else find a new place to live.
From wikipedia:
Projections were made by the Board of Trustees of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Funds (OASDI) in their 69th annual report dated May 12, 2009. According to these projections, based on the system's current revenue and benefit structure, expenses will exceed tax receipts beginning in 2016.
Their source:
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TR/2009/tr09.pdf
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
That's not deflationary, you don't decrease inflation by buying debt. If the Federal Reserve was going to act in a deflationary way it would be selling bonds to pull cash out of circulation not purchasing bonds and pushing cash into circulation.

As far as the harm, it looks like it's just 4.7 Billion, against the trillions that have been dumped into the economy in an ill-conceived attempt to correct the problems of easy credit and easy cash by providing more easy cash and more easy credit. It's just the continuation of similar policies.

Well put TBT...
fuckin dollar gonna tank and we'll be back at 18% interest.....No matter what Obama Says...It can't do anything else economics 101..We went thru this during the 80's crash...you couldn't get money and if you did they stabbed ya at 18% ( construction money) residental mrtgs were starting at 11% it was awful and imo this is worse a lot worse...For the first time in my life I fear for our country...
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
Ok show me. If you are so sure that this will happen you have had to actually see this data right, and are not just listening to someone else telling you this. So bring the numbers that show this could happen, and lets discuss it. Because if it is true it is VERY important and we need to make some serious changes. Or else find a new place to live.



Very true, what goes up must come down. Somethings just take longer than others.
Read some history recent history, theirs your data, nothing changes. Obama and his cronies can't change that. debt debt debt, bad bad bad.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Read some history recent history, theirs your data, nothing changes. Obama and his cronies can't change that. debt debt debt, bad bad bad.
That is bs. Look at the numbers not what the bloggers say is history making connections that are silly at best. We have a banking system that is not collapsed, new technologies that we are able to produce, much more wealth than most the globe put together, a strong workforce, on and on.

Debt is bad if it is not doing anything to grow. You take debt out to get a college degree so that you can use that education for far greater gains in the future.

If we just took out debt and did nothing with it, then yes it would be bad bad bad. But if we are using it to invest in our infrastructure then it is an investment and is good.


From wikipedia:
Quote:
Projections were made by the Board of Trustees of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Funds (OASDI) in their 69th annual report dated May 12, 2009. According to these projections, based on the system's current revenue and benefit structure, expenses will exceed tax receipts beginning in 2016.
Their source:
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TR/2009/tr09.pdf
How is that going to bankrupt our country? A program can go bankrupt, but that does not prove that our country is going to go bankrupt.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
America's economy is much larger than chinas, and the Saudis don't even come close.
Well, as far as GDP, but GDP is a misleading figure. America's economy is 70% service sector. We push a lot of money around, but we don't actually produce much. This is why we depend so much on China.

They know that if one country is most likely to pay back their investments it is us. No other country has as much wealth as we do. Since the world uses the american dollar as the means to trade we always will have the ability to pay back, since we can just print the money.
That is what has given America its economic power over the last couple decades, the Bretton Woods Sytem. Should The reserve currency ever be changed to, say, the Euro, we would be screwed.

But they know that we are also the least likely to flood the world with the money making such a high inflation that $100 a loaf of bread seems low and pay them back with a severely deflated dollar, thus ruining our economy with hyperinflation. The reason why you hear about this now is that this stimulus package was insanely large to avoid he collapse of our financial system. But once they realized how it worked they passed their own stimulus packages.
China is paying attention to what we are doing, and they have even warned us to practice fiscal responisbility. 24 trillion dollars is an extremely large amount of money, and we are basically robbing China of the value of the bonds they hold(as well as every american who own a dollar). I do not believe they will continue to throw good money after bad forever. The stimulus package hasn't done anything to fix our economy, and really it is just going to inflate the bubble that is our entire economy. This can't last forever, and I think we are nearing the end of sustaining our huge phony economy.

We still are the best system to invest in, and that is why the stock market is above 9400 today.
Like TBT pointed out, we have 60 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities, 11 TRILLION in public debt, and growing trade and budget defecits adding to these figures all the time. I think we are on the way out, as far as economic power. China will be the new Economic powerhouse.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
happy days aren’t here again


have you heard the great news? The recession is over! It’s true; i saw it on tv. Why fret about growing unemployment lines when banks are paying big-time bonuses again?

Proof of the turn was apparently revealed by the 2nd quarter gdp figures that showed that the economy declined by only 1%. After four consecutive quarters of negative gdp, the green shoots now assume that growth will resume over the summer. But before we pop the corks, it may be worthwhile to ask, “what really has changed, and what is responsible for our new lease on life?”

in truth, because of the continued profligacy of the government and federal reserve, the imbalances that caused the current recession have actually worsened. We are now in an even deeper hole than when the crisis began. Rather than wrapping up a recession, we are actually sinking into a depression. If things look better now, it’s just because we are in the eye of the storm.

We must remember that recessions inevitably follow periods of artificial growth. During these booms, malinvestments are made which ultimately must be liquidated during the ensuing busts. In short, mistakes made during booms are corrected during busts – and in the recent boom we made some real whoppers. We borrowed and spent too much money, bought goods we couldn’t afford, built houses we couldn’t carry, and developed a service sector economy completely dependent on consumer credit and rising asset prices. All the while, we allowed our industrial base to crumble and our infrastructure to decay.

In order to lay the foundation for real and lasting recovery, market forces must be allowed to repair the damage. However, current policy is counterproductive to this end. Trillions in stimulus dollars have kept the party going, but now what? How does deficit spending by the government address the problems that brought about the crash? It doesn’t; it just delays and worsens the hangover – and we have to hope we don’t die of alcohol poisoning.

By interfering with the unpleasant forces of the recession, we simply trade short-term gain for long-term pain. By propping up inefficient companies that should fail, we deprive more effective companies of the capital they need to grow. By holding up over-valued asset prices, we prevent the prudent or less well-off from snatching them up and, in doing so, creating a new price equilibrium based upon reality. By maintaining artificially low interest rates, we discourage the very savings that are so critical to capital formation and future economic growth. In addition, the false economic signals the fed sends the market prevent a more efficient re-allocation of resources from taking place and leads to even more bad economic decision being made. By running such huge deficits, we further crowd-out private enterprise by making it harder for businesses to invest or hire.

The recently passed “cash for clunkers” program (currently on-hold, as it ran out of funding in one week) is a perfect example of how government policy can make the economy worse. By incentivizing americans to destroy fully paid-for cars so they can go deeper into debt buying brand new ones, the government weakens an already crippled economy. The last thing we want to do is subsidize americans to go deeper into debt by buying more stuff. Don’t they realize that is precisely the behavior that got us into this mess?

Think about it this way. If your friend were in trouble because he had too much debt, would you encourage him to take on even more? Wouldn’t a real sign of progress be a reduction of debt, even if he had to cut back on his everyday expenses? What is true for an individual is also true for a collection of individuals, even if they call themselves a ‘government.’ if, as a country, we are even deeper into debt now than we were before, we are worse off. Period. The fact that the additional debt enabled better short-term gdp numbers is a long-term negative.

Since we have learned nothing from past mistakes, we are condemned to repeat them. As if we have not already suffered enough as a consequence of the bush/greenspan stimulus, obama/bernanke are giving ever larger doses, which will prove lethal to any recovery. The recession is over; long live the depression!
. .
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Hanimal, when you are UNABLE to find buyers for your treasuries means that OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT BUYING THEM. Thats the whole point of the post, If other countries do not buy ours, then we cannot export our inflation and must monetize the debt by having the Fed buy the treasuries. It has nothing to do with FOMC, and all to do with the fed creating more money and dumping it into the economy. It WILL create inflation. My post was not a question that I was wondering about, i already know WHY they do it, but was wondering how many folks besides TBT (WHO Knwos a good deal about econ BTW) would know what it means when you can only sell short term(1 year) debt and not the more important 5 and 7 year debt which only the fed bought.
 
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