We gotta be able to work WITH the GOP

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I'm not disagreeing with you in particular, just commenting on how America's political class has chosen to treat other political options.
If there is a third party in America, it will arise from the destruction of the republican party, the rich won't want to associate with the white trash party of losers and the democrats are turning more left. Joe is pretty pro-labor and left, wants and international tax treaty so billionaires pay etc, we don't hear Bernie complaining much about Joe. America is likely to have a billionaire astro turf conservative party, but the problem is they're at an ideological dead end with the wealth imbalance fueling many social issues. The republican base has been poisoned with bigots and nut jobs, all the good people have left and the big money is leaving them.

For the wealthy, it is government gridlock that they want and will pay for it so they don't have to pay any taxes. Right now, the republican politicians are grifters who serve the rich and con the base, but they are electing more psychos and lunatics every election cycle. Meanwhile it is forcing the democratic party to the left and opposite direction than the republicans, they have a big bench with a lot of talented people. The republicans can't find any one bad enough and the democrats can't find anybody good enough, they want perfection.
 

Sir Napsalot

Well-Known Member
I'll just address #4; I don't know how many times I've heard people tell me I'm throwing away my vote on a third party. How ELSE am I supposed to vote to hold the Deceptocrats accountable?!

Also, they say "but third parties would be competitive if people voted for them" while ignoring all the barriers put in place specifically to keep the parties from every getting on the ballot.

In short, this is a lie.
You're like my friend Klaus, who voted for Nader and Stein

in other words, a non-participant
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
If there is a third party in America, it will arise from the destruction of the republican party, the rich won't want to associate with the white trash party of losers and the democrats are turning more left. Joe is pretty pro-labor and left, wants and international tax treaty so billionaires pay etc, we don't hear Bernie complaining much about Joe. America is likely to have a billionaire astro turf conservative party, but the problem is they're at an ideological dead end with the wealth imbalance fueling many social issues. The republican base has been poisoned with bigots and nut jobs, all the good people have left and the big money is leaving them.

For the wealthy, it is government gridlock that they want and will pay for it so they don't have to pay any taxes. Right now, the republican politicians are grifters who serve the rich and con the base, but they are electing more psychos and lunatics every election cycle. Meanwhile it is forcing the democratic party to the left and opposite direction than the republicans, they have a big bench with a lot of talented people. The republicans can't find any one bad enough and the democrats can't find anybody good enough, they want perfection.
You act like their are only rich republicans and not rich Democrats. I don't mind the pointing out of the problems of the political status quo. Our political establishment is fucked. As I have said many times I find myself agreeing more and more with democrats on politics.But to act like only the republicans are controlled by big money is a false narrative.
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
You act like their are only rich republicans and not rich Democrats. I don't mind the pointing out of the problems of the political status quo. Our political establishment is fucked. As I have said many times I find myself agreeing more and more with democrats on politics.But to act like only the republicans are controlled by big money is a false narrative.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
You act like their are only rich republicans and not rich Democrats. I don't mind the pointing out of the problems of the political status quo. Our political establishment is fucked. As I have said many times I find myself agreeing more and more with democrats on politics.But to act like only the republicans are controlled by big money is a false narrative.
Oh, Chuck Shumer takes care of the NY bankers and financial markets, but he is only one wing of the democratic party, there is a left wing too and the classic struggle between right and left will be fought out inside the democratic party. The republicans are not serious people and have no interest in governing, only power and Trump showed the lot of them are unfit for office and had to pander to a lunatic base. Trump drove a lot of people out of the GOP, the smart ones and patriots. The rich will follow the power and drop the unelectable losers, the rise of maga is symptomatic of other issues in America like wealth imbalance, the super-rich own too much and the standard of living is lower than in the 80s even though increases in technology should have us living much better.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
...Like we USED to be able to, before Trump's splitting maul hit our country

it would be helpful if he was to just die on his own
Do you mean the GOP that set a policy of undermining anything Obama tried to do, even if it was good for the country?

The GOP had fascist tendencies well before trump came along. One thing history has taught us, you can’t work with fascists.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
You're like my friend Klaus, who voted for Nader and Stein

in other words, a non-participant
For the sake of argument, how else is one supposed to express their displeasure? I went Nader, did not go for stein...I do agree it's throwing away your vote...but what other choice is there really.

I think you should push your person in the primaries, but if they don't get in then you have to work with the choices that are out there....but that kinda sucks and does keep us on the slow path of shit we have been sliding on for 20-30 years.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You act like their are only rich republicans and not rich Democrats. I don't mind the pointing out of the problems of the political status quo. Our political establishment is fucked. As I have said many times I find myself agreeing more and more with democrats on politics. But to act like only the republicans are controlled by big money is a false narrative.
Sweeping statements like yours are difficult to disagree with but not very useful. Yes, big money influences the policies of both parties but the differences between the positions of leaders in the Democratic Party are lightyears away from that taken by leaders in the Republican Party.

Have you seen what Trump is proposing as his grand vision for what he wants to accomplish if he should win the presidency?


"Agenda 47 would consist of an end to birthright citizenship, further criminalizing transgender people and the LGBTQI community more broadly, expanding the thought crime and other censorship laws to end the teaching of "critical race theory" and to defeat "Woke" and "Black Lives Matter", attacking academic freedom and replacing it with "patriot education", implementing a national stop and frisk law, pardoning the Jan. 6 terrorists, putting homeless people in camps or some other designated area under threat of arrest, building high tech "freedom cities", ending the professional civil service and replacing it with right-wing political appointees and other such partisan agents, gutting the Department of Justice and other parts of the government that opposed Trump's attacks on democracy and the rule of law, executing drug dealers, starting a trade war with China, and making "peace" with Vladimir Putin by withdrawing support for the Ukrainian people and their freedom struggle. In many ways, Agenda 47 is a continuation of the fascist and other authoritarian policies Trump put in place during his first regime but now made even more extreme and cruel."

Salon didn't make this up. It's all laid out in Trump's own website: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47

Other than Trump's radical re-shaping of US society by destroying the deep state and making women pregnant again in some fascist dystopia that includes re-energizing US manufacturing by selling flying cars, who can say what other leaders in the Republican Party plan to do for the people of this country? Mostly, theirs is a radical revolutionary re-shaping of our society that would end alternatives to the lifestyle depicted in the Leave it to Beaver show. If one listens to Trump, they would know that he is planning on ending democracy as we know it today in the US and replace it with a much more centrally controlled authoritarian government with him in almost total control.

Democrats have their own policy statements, such as Ocasio Cortez's Green New Deal, Bernie Sander's vision statements and Biden's "Build Back Better" agenda. Democrats aren't absolutist authoritarians. There are different voices in the Democratic Party who attract people with different needs, wants and hopes. About the only thing all coalitions in the Democratic Party agree on is that they oppose the efforts by MAGA to make America Great for illiberal wealthy cis white men. Maybe you don't like the social policies of Democrats that encourage people to seek their own form of happiness, IDK. Maybe you don't like the way some Democrats speak about family issues. Maybe you don't like that Biden isn't a strong patriarchal figure. IDK what it is that is bothering you because you didn't specify.

The two parties are very different and the broad brush you painted claiming that both are "controlled" by wealthy people misses the difference in what they plan to do if they end up in power in 2024.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Sweeping statements like yours are difficult to disagree with but not very useful. Yes, big money influences the policies of both parties but the differences between the positions of leaders in the Democratic Party are lightyears away from that taken by leaders in the Republican Party.

Have you seen what Trump is proposing as his grand vision for what he wants to accomplish if he should win the presidency?


"Agenda 47 would consist of an end to birthright citizenship, further criminalizing transgender people and the LGBTQI community more broadly, expanding the thought crime and other censorship laws to end the teaching of "critical race theory" and to defeat "Woke" and "Black Lives Matter", attacking academic freedom and replacing it with "patriot education", implementing a national stop and frisk law, pardoning the Jan. 6 terrorists, putting homeless people in camps or some other designated area under threat of arrest, building high tech "freedom cities", ending the professional civil service and replacing it with right-wing political appointees and other such partisan agents, gutting the Department of Justice and other parts of the government that opposed Trump's attacks on democracy and the rule of law, executing drug dealers, starting a trade war with China, and making "peace" with Vladimir Putin by withdrawing support for the Ukrainian people and their freedom struggle. In many ways, Agenda 47 is a continuation of the fascist and other authoritarian policies Trump put in place during his first regime but now made even more extreme and cruel."

Salon didn't make this up. It's all laid out in Trump's own website: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47

Other than Trump's radical re-shaping of US society by destroying the deep state and making women pregnant again in some fascist dystopia that includes re-energizing US manufacturing by selling flying cars, who can say what other leaders in the Republican Party plan to do for the people of this country? Mostly, theirs is a radical revolutionary re-shaping of our society that would end alternatives to the lifestyle depicted in the Leave it to Beaver show. If one listens to Trump, they would know that he is planning on ending democracy as we know it today in the US and replace it with a much more centrally controlled authoritarian government with him in almost total control.

Democrats have their own policy statements, such as Ocasio Cortez's Green New Deal, Bernie Sander's vision statements and Biden's "Build Back Better" agenda. Democrats aren't absolutist authoritarians. There are different voices in the Democratic Party who attract people with different needs, wants and hopes. About the only thing all coalitions in the Democratic Party agree on is that they oppose the efforts by MAGA to make America Great for illiberal wealthy cis white men. Maybe you don't like the social policies of Democrats that encourage people to seek their own form of happiness, IDK. Maybe you don't like the way some Democrats speak about family issues. Maybe you don't like that Biden isn't a strong patriarchal figure. IDK what it is that is bothering you because you didn't specify.

The two parties are very different and the broad brush you painted claiming that both are "controlled" by wealthy people misses the difference in what they plan to do if they end up in power in 2024.
The democrats have policies, and many actual conservatives were driven into the democratic party by Trump, or align with them, so there is competition between right and left agendas. The Republicans have the whim of Trump, a lunatic base disconnected from reality and cowardly politicians with no real policies, just a grab for power and the destruction of the constitutional order. Unfortunately, it is the wide popular support for this kind of bullshit that fuels it, and Trump is not that far from Biden in national polls.
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
Sweeping statements like yours are difficult to disagree with but not very useful. Yes, big money influences the policies of both parties but the differences between the positions of leaders in the Democratic Party are lightyears away from that taken by leaders in the Republican Party.

Have you seen what Trump is proposing as his grand vision for what he wants to accomplish if he should win the presidency?


"Agenda 47 would consist of an end to birthright citizenship, further criminalizing transgender people and the LGBTQI community more broadly, expanding the thought crime and other censorship laws to end the teaching of "critical race theory" and to defeat "Woke" and "Black Lives Matter", attacking academic freedom and replacing it with "patriot education", implementing a national stop and frisk law, pardoning the Jan. 6 terrorists, putting homeless people in camps or some other designated area under threat of arrest, building high tech "freedom cities", ending the professional civil service and replacing it with right-wing political appointees and other such partisan agents, gutting the Department of Justice and other parts of the government that opposed Trump's attacks on democracy and the rule of law, executing drug dealers, starting a trade war with China, and making "peace" with Vladimir Putin by withdrawing support for the Ukrainian people and their freedom struggle. In many ways, Agenda 47 is a continuation of the fascist and other authoritarian policies Trump put in place during his first regime but now made even more extreme and cruel."

Salon didn't make this up. It's all laid out in Trump's own website: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47

Other than Trump's radical re-shaping of US society by destroying the deep state and making women pregnant again in some fascist dystopia that includes re-energizing US manufacturing by selling flying cars, who can say what other leaders in the Republican Party plan to do for the people of this country? Mostly, theirs is a radical revolutionary re-shaping of our society that would end alternatives to the lifestyle depicted in the Leave it to Beaver show. If one listens to Trump, they would know that he is planning on ending democracy as we know it today in the US and replace it with a much more centrally controlled authoritarian government with him in almost total control.

Democrats have their own policy statements, such as Ocasio Cortez's Green New Deal, Bernie Sander's vision statements and Biden's "Build Back Better" agenda. Democrats aren't absolutist authoritarians. There are different voices in the Democratic Party who attract people with different needs, wants and hopes. About the only thing all coalitions in the Democratic Party agree on is that they oppose the efforts by MAGA to make America Great for illiberal wealthy cis white men. Maybe you don't like the social policies of Democrats that encourage people to seek their own form of happiness, IDK. Maybe you don't like the way some Democrats speak about family issues. Maybe you don't like that Biden isn't a strong patriarchal figure. IDK what it is that is bothering you because you didn't specify.

The two parties are very different and the broad brush you painted claiming that both are "controlled" by wealthy people misses the difference in what they plan to do if they end up in power in 2024.
You make some good arguments. I just do not trust our politicians on either side of the aisle to do what is actually best for the people instead of what is best for their donors. I feel like I have been burned to many times. Now as far as Trump goes I am hopeful that he will not win the nomination. If it comes down to voting for Trump or voting democratic again I will. I do not want another 4 years of him.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
You make some good arguments. I just do not trust our politicians on either side of the aisle to do what is actually best for the people instead of what is best for their donors. I feel like I have been burned to many times. Now as far as Trump goes I am hopeful that he will not win the nomination. If it comes down to voting for Trump or voting democratic again I will. I do not want another 4 years of him.
In my case, I would treat “any Republican who is not vocally identifying maga as the fascist overthrow movement it is” as fully as toxic as defendant.

Which leaves nobody in contention for the GOP nomination, really.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You make some good arguments. I just do not trust our politicians on either side of the aisle to do what is actually best for the people instead of what is best for their donors. I feel like I have been burned to many times. Now as far as Trump goes I am hopeful that he will not win the nomination. If it comes down to voting for Trump or voting democratic again I will. I do not want another 4 years of him.
What happened to make you feel like you've been burned?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
For the sake of argument, how else is one supposed to express their displeasure? I went Nader, did not go for stein...I do agree it's throwing away your vote...but what other choice is there really.

I think you should push your person in the primaries, but if they don't get in then you have to work with the choices that are out there....but that kinda sucks and does keep us on the slow path of shit we have been sliding on for 20-30 years.
And that's why I decided that I was fine listening to the propaganda brain worm notion that I MUST vote for the R team who clearly hates me or the D team who clearly holds my interests in contempt.

Butter one of them do anything to earn my vote, so why should they have it? Especially for free?!

Cornel West is the strongest third party candidate in my lifetime and I'm begging him all the way. He's someone I can vote FOR, not just because I'm voting against someone else.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
And that's why I decided that I was fine listening to the propaganda brain worm notion that I MUST vote for the R team who clearly hates me or the D team who clearly holds my interests in contempt.

Butter one of them do anything to earn my vote, so why should they have it? Especially for free?!

Cornel West is the strongest third party candidate in my lifetime and I'm begging him all the way. He's someone I can vote FOR, not just because I'm voting against someone else.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Tell me one war the Democrats have opposed. I'll wait.
Which Democrat are you talking about? The Democratic Party is a coalition that has always had important factions that opposed the various wars the US has engaged in, going back to Korea. As I said in an earlier message, Democrats are not authoritarians who require they follow a single leader's policy.

Even today, the Democratic Party doesn't hew to one leader's policy. There is dissent. They are being listened to but sometimes people are simply wrong about what they want. I'm completely for the US's military aid to enable Ukraine to defend itself from recolonization by Putin's imperial Russia. That you support Putin's war against Ukraine's valid and internationally recognized effort to retain its nascent democratic government speaks volumes about how tolerant you are of absolutist authoritarian rule. But that's OK, I'll listen to what you have to say about the war in Ukraine. You almost always fail fact checks but you are completely entitled to be wrong.
 
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