What LED light would you like to see -vs- 600w HPS

tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Hey guys....I've been around quite a while and have done a couple grow journals on here over the last year or so. I've been running two 600w HPS (super eye hortilux) for as long as I can remember in flower. I have years of sample size to compare against.

I, like a lot of people, am intrigued by trying LED. What I want to try this new run is to swap out one of the 600w HPS with a top of the line LED. I will grow 6 plants under each light using exactly same nutrients. I will be using same clones I've been running for years.

This should absolutely give me an apples to apples comparison. I am not electrically handy so it has to be an already assembled fixture. I have done a lot of reading in these forums and it seems like amare, hlg, fluence, timber, and a couple others are the heavy hitters.

The 12 babies have been 12 days in systems under 2 4foot 8 bulb t5 flouros. I plan on primarily using new light for flower only. I'd like to purchase within a couple weeks so I have it ready in 30 or so days when I flip.

Id really like to hear what some of you experienced LED guys would go with given this scenario. Then I will do a complete journal to track results on here.

Thanks in advance....
 
verticalgrow

verticalgrow

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
Hey guys....

I, like a lot of people, am intrigued by trying LED. What I want to try this new run is to swap out one of the 600w HPS
Id really like to hear what some of you experienced LED guys would go with given this scenario. Then I will do a complete journal to track results on here.
Click to expand...
Thx for asking..... Scynce LED 450W $895

LINK = https://scynceled.com/product/dragon-s-turbo/

WARRANTY:
5 years
THERMAL MANAGEMENT:
Active - IP67 rated fan
SPECTRUM:
Full spectrum white (cool & warm) with both deep & far red
SECONDARY OPTICS:
patented 120
0 lenses
DIMMING:
full digital control of spectrum, recipes and scheduling
FLUX (PPF):
842 μmol/s
EFFICACY:
1.87 umol/j
PAR (PPFD):
up to 1,135 μmol/m2/s in a 3’x3’ tent @ 15”
COVERAGE AREA:
Flower = up to 4’x4’ Veg/Clone = up to 5’x5’
 
verticalgrow

verticalgrow

Well-Known Member
POWER:
450w
INPUT VOLTAGE:
120 - 277V
AMPS:
120v-3.75 / 240v-1.9 / 277v-1.6
POWER FACTOR / EFFICIENCY:
>0.9 / 93%
DIMENSIONS:
26.5” x 7” x 5”
WEIGHT:
22 lbs
WATERPROOF SEALING:
IP66 Rating (entire light fixture)
CERTIFICATIONS / TESTING:
UL, FCC, RoHS, CSA
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
What ever you choose (I could only personally recommend vero cob) I'd suggest replacing on a W for W basis but get a few led units to spread the light more. Make sure the dimension you are going to use is covered well by the multiple light sources of led/cob/ or what ever you use. Scrog will be pretty mandatory to keep a very even canopy. The penetration or density of buds below the top 6 inches, give or take, will not be great. Try and make sure that 6 inch zone at the very top is as even as possible. I've seen a lot of pics where people try to grow uneven trees with leds over head, it's a bad idea for yield unless you implement side lighting.

Some people claim they need to use more mg and ca when they changed to cob. I didn't have to up either but I may have been using too much with the hps before transition or they perhaps were using too little (keep that in mind, your current feeding might not be optimal for led). What I feel is a factor is the temp differences, hps root zones are generally warmer, while led root zones will be cooler. For all you would be using the same W, led lights send a lot of the heat up into extraction. You need to account for that otherwise root temps will drop and varying degrees of lock out/slowed growth would be seen. That could be some/most of the reason for reported mag deficiency. If your root zone temps are in line and you still end up with mag def then that's 1 possibility ruled out.

Just be cautious of led limitation. A 600w hps can quite nicely cover 3x3/4x4 in a tent, the depth won't be bad. I feel that led need more space than that to really shine. But again, if you swap out W for W you should be fine, as I'd imagine the depth will slightly increase as will over all intensity/density.
 
verticalgrow

verticalgrow

Well-Known Member
Johnny Lawrence said:
Seems pricey compared with other options available. It also seems as if that light would give off a rectangular foot print and would be better suited for maybe a 3x5 type of space.

Why are you suggesting this light?
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To find out if this 450W dragon can match a 600W hps & i like compact grow lights that are powerfull.
 
tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
What ever you choose (I could only personally recommend vero cob) I'd suggest replacing on a W for W basis but get a few led units to spread the light more. Make sure the dimension you are going to use is covered well by the multiple light sources of led/cob/ or what ever you use. Scrog will be pretty mandatory to keep a very even canopy. The penetration or density of buds below the top 6 inches, give or take, will not be great. Try and make sure that 6 inch zone at the very top is as even as possible. I've seen a lot of pics where people try to grow uneven trees with leds over head, it's a bad idea for yield unless you implement side lighting.

Some people claim they need to use more mg and ca when they changed to cob. I didn't have to up either but I may have been using too much with the hps before transition or they perhaps were using too little (keep that in mind, your current feeding might not be optimal for led). What I feel is a factor is the temp differences, hps root zones are generally warmer, while led root zones will be cooler. For all you would be using the same W, led lights send a lot of the heat up into extraction. You need to account for that otherwise root temps will drop and varying degrees of lock out/slowed growth would be seen. That could be some/most of the reason for reported mag deficiency. If your root zone temps are in line and you still end up with mag def then that's 1 possibility ruled out.

Just be cautious of led limitation. A 600w hps can quite nicely cover 3x3/4x4 in a tent, the depth won't be bad. I feel that led need more space than that to really shine. But again, if you swap out W for W you should be fine, as I'd imagine the depth will slightly increase as will over all intensity/density.
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Thanks for the info. I don't use a formal scrog/sog method. However, I do grow with a pretty even canopy. Here is a picture of my last run. I use multiple topping and light defoliation to keep things pretty even. Do you still think I may be limited with the LED looking at my grow style?20181103_081135.jpg 20180607_135706.jpg
 
tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
I want to clarify the reason for me doing this....it's 100% about quality. I am fairly happy with my current setup. My reasoning is to give my plants a better spectrum that they can then utilize and further improve the quality of finished product. Obvious other benefits would be electric reduction and easier to manage heat removal.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
I want to clarify the reason for me doing this....it's 100% about quality. I am fairly happy with my current setup. My reasoning is to give my plants a better spectrum that they can then utilize and further improve the quality of finished product. Obvious other benefits would be electric reduction and easier to manage heat removal.
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If you wanted better spectrum leds are actually worse than hps and the proper advice would be to go to cmh for that increade :-)
 
tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
If you wanted better spectrum leds are actually worse than hps and the proper advice would be to go to cmh for that increade :-)
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Really? I wasn't aware of that. I will definitely do some looking into that. I guess I shouldnt have titled this thread what LED to try head to head with the 600w hps....instead it should have asked what light of any kind would you recomend against the 600w hps to try and further increase quality. Thanks for the feedback!
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
Really? I wasn't aware of that. I will definitely do some looking into that. I guess I shouldnt have titled this thread what LED to try head to head with the 600w hps....instead it should have asked what light of any kind would you recomend against the 600w hps to try and further increase quality. Thanks for the feedback!
Click to expand...
If led had better spectrum, more light, less heat for the same wattage it would be like placing a three legged donkey next to an arabian stallion in a three mile flat race.

The fact that this is not clearly apparent in any one light must mean somthing is a miss or no fucker would buy anything else.

I only offer the one reason why led isnt clearly outyeilding the others and why all three seem about similar watt for watt.

Fundamentally we have the basis for a very egotistical argument, that wouldnt happen here though right?

:-)
 
tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
If led had better spectrum, more light, less heat for the same wattage it would be like placing a three legged donkey next to an arabian stallion in a three mile flat race.

The fact that this is not clearly apparent in any one light must mean somthing is a miss or no fucker would buy anything else.

I only offer the one reason why led isnt clearly outyeilding the others and why all three seem about similar watt for watt.

Fundamentally we have the basis for a very egotistical argument, that wouldnt happen here though right?

:-)
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You have a solid point. I'm not doing this because I want to throw money away that's for sure. Maybe I'm just getting caught up in the technology craze. I've read a number theories and a lot of people suggest adding suplemental lighting to the hps and say a mix is best. As usual when trying to make the decision to change lighting it's simply not an easy decision. I've been wrestling with all the options on my own which is why I brought it to the forum. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
You have a solid point. I'm not doing this because I want to throw money away that's for sure. Maybe I'm just getting caught up in the technology craze. I've read a number theories and a lot of people suggest adding suplemental lighting to the hps and say a mix is best. As usual when trying to make the decision to change lighting it's simply not an easy decision. I've been wrestling with all the options on my own which is why I brought it to the forum. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!
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My guess is youll smoke the hps bud then the led hps bud and not be able to tell the difference, i couldnt, cant even tell straight hps from led from cmh bud.

I guess we chase that extra five percent far too much but do our customers care, can i even tell the difference.... could pharmacies grade for spectrum as well as tops mids lows and achieve more price.


Upto you but dont expect to notice much or life in the hood would bee different :-)
 
tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
My guess is youll smoke the hps bud then the led hps bud and not be able to tell the difference, i couldnt, cant even tell straight hps from led from cmh bud.

I guess we chase that extra five percent far too much but do our customers care, can i even tell the difference.... could pharmacies grade for spectrum as well as tops mids lows and achieve more price.


Upto you but dont expect to notice much or life in the hood would bee different :-)
Click to expand...
I like the way you present that point. I had to laugh because after my first year or so of learning for the most part my results have been the same. I've made my best gains by becoming more in tuned with nutrient needs and training for more tops and even growth. Noone has ever complained about what they have received from me and let's face it when you grow you always handpick the best tops/buds that we save for ourselves.

Quite possibly I'd be better served to introduce another strain or two and have a variety. it's just been easier growing out the same clones for years....it's already dialed in.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
I like the way you present that point. I had to laugh because after my first year or so of learning for the most part my results have been the same. I've made my best gains by becoming more in tuned with nutrient needs and training for more tops and even growth. Noone has ever complained about what they have received from me and let's face it when you grow you always handpick the best tops/buds that we save for ourselves.

Quite possibly I'd be better served to introduce another strain or two and have a variety. it's just been easier growing out the same clones for years....it's already dialed in.
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I think your spot on in saying other things increase quality (and quantity) other than spectrums and some over hype gains a little too much here i just know id be dissapointed to commit for the same dank bud everyone loves.

:-)
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
Really? I wasn't aware of that. I will definitely do some looking into that. I guess I shouldnt have titled this thread what LED to try head to head with the 600w hps....instead it should have asked what light of any kind would you recomend against the 600w hps to try and further increase quality. Thanks for the feedback!
Click to expand...
Take what he says with a pinch of salt because he speaks out of context with advice that serves a different agenda. In another topic he linked wiki information stating that spectrum plays far less a role than was thought, in turn, light intensity alone seemed to be the bigger factor. If that is true, leds turn more W to light than cmh or hps. From that, use logic, you can see the contradiction in his defence of hps spectrum. This could be backed up with the amount of growers who swear that they now use less W of led and get the same yield they did with 600hps, but ofc that doesn't make it fact. Stay on the safe side, swap out W for W.

If you really are not sure, then maybe think about getting a 315cmh for the middle (open hood) and then make up the other 300w with some small led boards to go around the cmh in a square like manner. If spectrum is the deciding factor cmh has you covered, if intensity is the deciding factor, the leds turn more W to light so they have you covered.

People like kingrow are the peter pan of growing, afraid of change.

tmold44 said:
Thanks for the info. I don't use a formal scrog/sog method. However, I do grow with a pretty even canopy. Here is a picture of my last run. I use multiple topping and light defoliation to keep things pretty even. Do you still think I may be limited with the LED looking at my grow style?View attachment 4276457 View attachment 4276458
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Those would do ok but the further away you get from a level canopy the less you will begin to yield if you don't customise the light angles properly. It's easier when possible to run a flat scrog since you then only have to concern yourself with light height, but it's certainly not the only way to go about it. You just need to understand the limitations of led, just like you don't put a 600hps 1 inch from canopy.. you don't try to hang leds above a highly uneven canopy and expect good results.


I am not trying to sway you, use hps if you want, just giving you some balance to make a more accurate choice. I would personally still use it but not before cob and cmh. The frost increase was more than noticeable, maybe that's from more light for W or from spectrum.. dunno.. but I know what I see.
 
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tmold44

tmold44

Well-Known Member
Thank you
Flowki said:
Take what he says with a pinch of salt because he speaks out of context with advice that serves a different agenda. In another topic he linked wiki information stating that spectrum plays far less a role than was thought, in turn, light intensity alone seemed to be the bigger factor. If that is true, leds turn more W to light than cmh or hps. From that, use logic, you can see the contradiction in his defence of hps spectrum. This could be backed up with the amount of growers who swear that they now use less W of led and get the same yield they did with 600hps, but ofc that doesn't make it fact. Stay on the safe side, swap out W for W.

If you really are not sure, then maybe think about getting a 315cmh for the middle (open hood) and then make up the other 300w with some small led boards to go around the cmh in a square like manner. If spectrum is the deciding factor cmh has you covered, if intensity is the deciding factor, the leds turn more W to light so they have you covered.

People like kingrow are the peter pan of growing, afraid of change.



Those would do ok but the further away you get from a level canopy the less you will begin to yield if you don't customise the light angles properly. It's easier when possible to run a flat scrog since you then only have to concern yourself with light height, but it's certainly not the only way to go about it. You just need to understand the limitations of led, just like you don't put a 600hps 1 inch from canopy.. you don't try to hang leds above a highly uneven canopy and expect good results.


I am not trying to sway you, use hps if you want, just giving you some balance to make a more accurate choice. I would personally still use it but not before cob and cmh. The frost increase was more than noticeable, maybe that's from more light for W or from spectrum.. dunno.. but I know what I see.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the detailed response. I have to admit I've been resistant to change and stuck old school for quite a while myself. With the legalization and change in perception of growing over the last 10 years there is so much more info and technology to sort through. At the beginning I was defensive of my trusty hps setup.....over time I've begun to realize with science, technology, and advancements there is no doubt improvement with it. Therefore, I'm trying to use this as a trial to personally see what direction I want to go or if it is worth it. Seeking info from you guys helps make those decisions. I was trying to simplify the trial by simply swapping a 600w hps for a comparable LED and run 2 six plant grows side by side with all other things constant. I see now it may not be so simple to chose. In the end I just want to make sure whichever direction I go I have done my homework and have a method to my madness to make it a beneficial trial either way.

Again thank you for everyone's opinions. I didn't expect everyone to agree. We all in the end make our own decisions. I just wanted to hear some advice from others who may have experience already to help make sure I at least make a quality decision!

Keep the ideas coming. I'll throw this out there....I was really leaning hard at either the amare 8bar, hlg 550, or the fluence spyder to replace the light....now I just don't know.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
tmold44 said:
Thank you


Thank you for the detailed response. I have to admit I've been resistant to change and stuck old school for quite a while myself. With the legalization and change in perception of growing over the last 10 years there is so much more info and technology to sort through. At the beginning I was defensive of my trusty hps setup.....over time I've begun to realize with science, technology, and advancements there is no doubt improvement with it. Therefore, I'm trying to use this as a trial to personally see what direction I want to go or if it is worth it. Seeking info from you guys helps make those decisions. I was trying to simplify the trial by simply swapping a 600w hps for a comparable LED and run 2 six plant grows side by side with all other things constant. I see now it may not be so simple to chose. In the end I just want to make sure whichever direction I go I have done my homework and have a method to my madness to make it a beneficial trial either way.

Again thank you for everyone's opinions. I didn't expect everyone to agree. We all in the end make our own decisions. I just wanted to hear some advice from others who may have experience already to help make sure I at least make a quality decision!

Keep the ideas coming. I'll throw this out there....I was really leaning hard at either the amare 8bar, hlg 550, or the fluence spyder to replace the light....now I just don't know.
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Try to get a unit/s that physically have the light spaced out across the entire canopy. Some of the led units I've seen (like the 550) are compact and it will focus the light, kinda like high power hid bulbs. If the focus is too intense you'll have to back it off to compensate bleaching and that will lower over all intensity for the W used. Also as said before the penetration on led isn't insane, so if the unit is too compact the leaves not directly under it and out will very sharply increase in lack of intensity, quicker than they would with hps. It's a different tech that needs to be treat different, I think the people making highW compact led units know that it isn't optimal but that it will appeal to traditional hps growers, imo those sort of leds are like fast food. But that's only my opinion on it.
 
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