What's Wrong With Civil Unions?

Proponents of same sex marriage cite equal rights for Gays as the main reason why same sex marriage should be allowed.

Others, believe that redefining marriage is not necessary to ensure equal rights for Gays because this could just as easily be accomplished with civil unions.

Civil unions would ensure all the same rights afforded by traditional marriage but would also keep the historic definition of marriage intact.

So, the question I pose is, what is wrong with civil unions?

"separate but equal" is unconstitutional.

tnrtinr said:

"separate but equal" is unconstitutional.

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where is the separation? that buzz phrase is used to equate this fight with the civil rights movement, but the only separation is in the minds of those involved. if it was demanded that one group called a restroom a restroom and another group called it a defecation station, but they both used the same facility, where is the separation? the disingenuous stances of both sides have gotten insane and those folks that really don't give a shit either way are getting a bit sick of it. where is the rational compromise that will satisfy the majority of both sides? i'm not talking about the extremists that want homosexuality to be banned or those that demand gays be welcomed with open arms by everyone. the one is intolerant hogwash, the other is a complete impossibility and both are unconstitutional.

in case anyone has forgotten, this whole thing started because gay couples were not treated equally under the law with straight couples. committed gay couples felt that their unions should have the same rights and privileges as the more socially accepted institution of marriage and rightfully so. thanks to the radicalization of the debate, this has become a pissing match over the definition of a god damn word. for centuries marriage has been defined as the union between a man and a woman and, face it folks, there are some people who are just not ready to see that institution altered in such a radical fashion. the intelligent thing here would be for the pro gay marriage folks to take the olive branch of civil unions, realizing that they had actually won and that the demands of their original agenda had been fulfilled, and allow those that stubbornly cling to tradition to enjoy their hollow victory. provided those civil unions confer the same rights and privileges as marriage, the fight has been won in all but the most petty respects, but still the battle rages.

maybe i'm being too rational here and can't see the emotional baggage attached to the word "marriage", but i can see that, as this war intensifies, the chance of anyone winning becomes slimmer and slimmer. more people are alienated every day by the rhetoric thrown around by both sides and the opposing radical arms are continuing to grow in strength. eventually the gay marriage advocates will have their way, but the price will be a schism between the straight and gay communities that is the opposite of the original intent of this fight.

undertheice said:

where is the separation? that buzz phrase is used to equate this fight with the civil rights movement, but the only separation is in the minds of those involved. if it was demanded that one group called a restroom a restroom and another group called it a defecation station, but they both used the same facility, where is the separation?

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Your analogy is off. It is like having a one bathroom called a "restroom" and one bathroom called a "defecation station." If you are straight you can only go to the "restroom (marriage)" and if you are gay you can only use a "defecation station (civil union)." It is a classic example of "separate but equal."

By your reasoning; the black civil rights movement should have ended with the 3/5 compromise. Civil rights battles end when EVERYONE is an equal. Having separate laws / rules / regulation for different people.

The schism that you predict will not happen. By that logic there would be a huge rift between blacks and whites from their civil rights movement. While there is still racism; it is NOWHERE near the level or intensity it was during the civil rights movement. As society has been incorporated and minorities and whites began to see each other as people (which breaks down stereotypes as we learn to live together).

Homosexuals WILL have the right to marry. Why would they stop at Civil Unions? Granting Civil Unions just delays the inevitable.

tnrtinr said:

"separate but equal" is unconstitutional.

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couldn't straight people be joined in a civil union?

i would like to be able to use the ladies restroom.

if a gay man can stand next to me and pee then why can't i pee next to suzy?

i want equal restrooms for all.

Honestly couldn't give a shit if they got married. If you were for 'small government', then you wouldn't want government to step into people's lives to tell them that they couldn't marry or get an abortion because it is conflicting with your book of jewish fairy tales and the baby jesus. Sounds hypocritical.

So if I'm a racist and don't want people with darker skin to be lumped in with me, would it be alright with you if we just give them civil unions too? They'd have the same rights as us white folks. You OK with that Rick?

If christians want to feel like they're better, I say let them come up with a new name for their unions. Who put them in charge of defining marriage? I'm athiest, and think that marriage is as much my institution as it is theirs. I'm fine sharing it with people who aren't just like me.

Marriage is not a government or religious institution, though it has been hijacked by both in a sense. It is primarily a verbal or written contract between two people who love each other. Religion can regulate their follower's contracts all they want, but not mine. And the only reason the government is involved is because this contract involves money.

There is nothing wrong with two people of ANY sex, establishing a voluntary contract between themselves and calling it WHATEVER they want.

There is a reason I posed this question. It is a complex and nuanced reason an I'm sure it will be out of reach for many.

The answer to my question is that Gays want more than equal rights. Gays, through redefining marriage, seek a public seal of approval for their lifestyle. This is quite simply the only logical reason for insisting on redefining marriage instead of simply accepting civil unions which would ensure their rights.

Now I am willing to accept that even that might not be so bad. After all, why shouldn't we accept any lifestyle in which nobody is harmed?

Where this becomes a very nuanced and delicate issue that is more than likely obscure for most people is when you consider the ramifications visa vi Constitutional law. If we move too fast and haphazardly legitimize gay marriage we will likely be facing a torrent of anti-discrimination lawsuits that might have any number of unforeseen consequences.

Since Gays are clearly pushing for complete public approval, how long do you suppose it will be before they demand equal representation in all areas of life? How long will it be before they insist that gay sex be covered along side of straight sex in sex ed class'? How long before they sue schools to force the inclusion of gay children's stories?

If you look at current trends the answer is that these things would immediately follow. And, while some people might be fine with this, we also have to respect the rights of people that are not. Suppose the children of devout Muslim family had to go to school and walk past posters featuring gay couples or sort through textbooks with titles like fun with Dick and Joe. To them, the simple act of gazing upon such things is a violation of their faith.

In the end, I think that all people should be treated equally. The difference between my view and that of many is that while we all feel this way, many people draw the line when it comes to the rights of the religious. The religious after all, are seen as evil people who's belief's are to be belittled and disrespected. While I am not a religious person, I truly pity people who fail to see the enormous wealth of morality, wisdom and philosophy given to us through religion. It truly is a shame that so many are so woefully ignorant of this and so morally myopic that they see some as being more equal than others.

I don't get the whole "marriage" vs. "civil union" thing either. I am gay and could care less. I've been with my partner for nearly 7 years now and we've been monogamous, as far as I know. I can't imagine he'd be otherwise. But one word doesn't define us or our relationship. Personally I think government should just get out of the business of marriage and civil unions. Things should just be treated as a partnership like a business. If states would drop some of their blue laws, etc. there would be no reason for the government to even have a need to step in, except for the fact that they want to control taxes and get money from people that have worked hard for their earnings.

RickWhite said:

The answer to my question is that Gays want more than equal rights. Gays, through redefining marriage, seek a public seal of approval for their lifestyle. This is quite simply the only logical reason for insisting on redefining marriage instead of simply accepting civil unions which would ensure their rights.

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Gays seek as much of a public seal of approval for their lifestyle as marijuana users seek the same "seal of approval" through legalization.

I think your mistake is that you are equating a form of legalization to a "public seal of approval". Just because my neighbor is a sky diver and exercises his preference to sky dive legally, it does not mean that I approve of his preference. That's kinda silly. Why does it matter what name you apply to someone's voluntary contract? It's like arguing that when black people get married, it should be called a "contractual unification" then saying, "but it's the SAME THING!". Please correct me if I've misrepresented you.

The purest definition of marriage, without bias or prejudice is...

"a formal agreement between two parties to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger."

The only people who would have a problem with correcting the legal definition of marriage (between a man and woman) to something more inclusive of ALL human beings would be those who feel unjustifiably threatened by gays or who have a prejudice against them for religious or other reasons. You dont NEED two words to define the same thing just to alleviate the anxities of prejudiced people.

lopezri said:

I don't get the whole "marriage" vs. "civil union" thing either. I am gay and could care less. I've been with my partner for nearly 7 years now and we've been monogamous, as far as I know. I can't imagine he'd be otherwise. But one word doesn't define us or our relationship. Personally I think government should just get out of the business of marriage and civil unions. Things should just be treated as a partnership like a business. If states would drop some of their blue laws, etc. there would be no reason for the government to even have a need to step in, except for the fact that they want to control taxes and get money from people that have worked hard for their earnings.

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are you looking at my penis? because i would be looking at suzy's verginer.

fdd2blk said:

are you looking at my penis? because i would be looking at suzy's verginer.

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I think kind of what you stated there is kind of where the anti-gay people get going (I'm not saying you're anti-gay!) Usually when somebody hears that a guy is dating a girl or vice-versa it's no big deal because heterosexuals don't usually take their mind directly to what they are doing with each other behind closed doors. I mean, how many people imagine some guy and girl going at it or getting cunnilingus or fellatio the minute they see them holding hands on the street. But the minute they find out someone is gay they immediately just think about one guy sucking another guys cock or sticking it in his ass or two girls bumping flowers. They don't see them as just another couple that loves each other and cares about each other, they just see them as two people of the same sex going at it sexually.

lopezri said:

I think kind of what you stated there is kind of where the anti-gay people get going (I'm not saying you're anti-gay!) Usually when somebody hears that a guy is dating a girl or vice-versa it's no big deal because heterosexuals don't usually take their mind directly to what they are doing with each other behind closed doors. I mean, how many people imagine some guy and girl going at it or getting cunnilingus or fellatio the minute they see them holding hands on the street. But the minute they find out someone is gay they immediately just think about one guy sucking another guys cock or sticking it in his ass or two girls bumping flowers. They don't see them as just another couple that loves each other and cares about each other, they just see them as two people of the same sex going at it sexually.

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i was simply speaking of taking a glance at a public restroom, like at the ball game. i never once thought of ass sex.

lopezri said:

I don't get the whole "marriage" vs. "civil union" thing either. I am gay and could care less. I've been with my partner for nearly 7 years now and we've been monogamous, as far as I know. I can't imagine he'd be otherwise. But one word doesn't define us or our relationship. Personally I think government should just get out of the business of marriage and civil unions. Things should just be treated as a partnership like a business. If states would drop some of their blue laws, etc. there would be no reason for the government to even have a need to step in, except for the fact that they want to control taxes and get money from people that have worked hard for their earnings.

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This topic has been beaten to death... but the loudest voice often gets the most attention...

Anyhow, I think folks need to find acceptance within themselves, not look to the general public, or their government (laws), to make them feel like they aren't missing out on something (marriage and children).

lopezri is fine with his sexuality, and he accepts himself as he is, and that didn't come by beating down religious people, or trying to change society at large.

I congratulate you sir!

ancap said:

It's like arguing that when black people get married, it should be called a "contractual unification" then saying, "but it's the SAME THING!".

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Exactly. Yeah yeah - but it's the same thing!!!

People living in the past.

fdd2blk said:

i was simply speaking of taking a glance at a public restroom, like at the ball game. i never once thought of ass sex.

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LMAO yeah it's ok to look... and fantasize isn't it? Just don't touch, or your wife may get pissed!

Reminds me of a funny Gay joke (not anti-gay)

"Two gay men decide to have a baby....They mix their sperm together
and
Have a surrogate mother artificially inseminated with it..

When the baby is born, they rush to the hospital...A dozen babies
are in the nursery ward, eleven of whom are crying and screaming...

Over in the corner, one baby is smiling serenely...A nurse comes by,
and to the delight of the gay fathers, she points out the happy
child as theirs...

Isn't it wonderful?' one gay says to the other. 'All these unhappy
babies....and yet our baby is so happy....This just proves the
superiority of gay love!'

The nurse says, ' Oh sure, he's happy now, but just watch what
happens when I pull the pacifier out of his ***.'

tnrtinr said:

Exactly. Yeah yeah - but it's the same thing!!!

People living in the past.

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Sexuality and race are the same thing?

Thanks I never would have guessed...

Green Cross said:

This topic has been beaten to death... but the loudest voice often gets the most attention...

Anyhow, I think folks need to find acceptance within themselves, not look to the general public, or their government (laws), to make them feel like they aren't missing out on something (marriage and children).

lopezri is fine with his sexuality, and he accepts himself as he is, and that didn't come by beating down religious people, or trying to change society at large.

I congratulate you sir!

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Thank you Green Cross! + rep for saying a nice thing!