Why change water in hydro system?

thenasty1

thenasty1

Well-Known Member
tint pretty much hit the nail on the head
longest ive been able to go without dumping a res (rdwc, 80ish gal) is 23 days. i add back clean water and nutes as necessary, but eventually something builds up enough to throw things out of whack (or thats my theory, at least). keep in mind too that the plants are eating more of x and less of y at different stages of their development, so what they leave on their plate is going to change a bit from week to week. it would be pretty difficult to dial in your feed to where you never have to dump without lab equipment and the skills to use it
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
myke said:
My Ph goes up as the level goes down,Your either feeding to high or your water is evaporating some how.
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No... I'm in a 4 gallon bucket and using 2 gallons of water. As the water level goes down, the ph goes up. When 3/4s of a gallon is taken up the ph starts to drop because there's not much water. When it gets to a gallon low my ph has usually dropped to 5.3 - 5.4. When I add plain water it'll bring me up to 5.7-5.8
 
weedRus

weedRus

Member
myke said:
Coco is hydro,fresh nutes sometimes 3 times a day.Rdwc same nutes with fresh top ups weekly never completely draining except when light cycle change. 2 plants side by each.one coco one rdwc......Which one grows bigger?

In my bsmt,rdwc will win.
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Same here...
 
J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
dbz said:
Bugbee has an array of lab equipment at his disposal, trying to grow exactly how he does is not the way to go unless you have hundreds of thousands to spend on all the lab equipment to constantly analyze everything and grad student slaves to do it for you.

Cherry pies, blackberry pies and apple pies. There are 10 pie eaters and 10 slices to each pie. However right now they prefer cherry and every day they eat all 10 slices of the cherry and split 2 slices of blackberry and 2 slices of apple. Every day though you bring a new pie of each kind. Very soon you will have no cherry every day but tons of leftover apple and blackberry pie.
In plants too much of a nutrient can be just as detrimental as not enough and cause lock outs and a plethora of problems. Of course if you have grad students and a full lab to analyze exactly what was eaten every day then you can replace according to need.
I love Dr Bugbee, but he also has all of this stuff at his disposal we don't. If you do have it, then well why even be here in the first place and I'm jealous.
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thats not what the article says.... actually i think the article (written by bugbee and cited by ALOT) says all the complicated monitoring causes more problems... it gives rather simple insturctions on what slices are being removed at different time and how to replenish them... Bugbees advice literally taken from the article is to make premixes for different stages of groth... this is not really difficult to do... but what makes it really easy w weed is the numbers break out to basically the same the whole time... (also keep in mind the mass balance princ)

if ur going off the article and my estimates from it it comes to this...

starts 20-8-20 12cal 7mag 7 sul (this is what u want to hold)

veg 20-4-20 8cal 3mag 3 sul (this is what is being taken from plant at that time so thats what u replace)
stretch 20-3-20 8cal 3mag 3sul
flower 20-4-20 4cal 3mag 3sul

maintain a 1.2ish ec... ec drops to 1.1 add the right mix based on the time to bring back up to 1.2...
 
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J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
Wastei said:
So here we go again. You come here for advices but have already made up your mind?

It's not insanity when practically everyone follow the same practices and guidelines. I guess you have tried both changing out weekly and say monthly then?

Calling something insane without having any clue or personal experience to why is dumbfounded and insane if anything.
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u posted basically a marketing article from someone trying to sell nuits... i posted an article from the possible the leading plant sciewntist in the country and tried to start a discussion... Im not trying to get on ya but thats sugar information man... its probable going to hurt u more than it helps you... and i got nothing against current culturre im setting up their original system at the moment... but thats i got a bridge to seel u stuff
 
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J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
thenasty1 said:
tint pretty much hit the nail on the head
longest ive been able to go without dumping a res (rdwc, 80ish gal) is 23 days. i add back clean water and nutes as necessary, but eventually something builds up enough to throw things out of whack (or thats my theory, at least). keep in mind too that the plants are eating more of x and less of y at different stages of their development, so what they leave on their plate is going to change a bit from week to week. it would be pretty difficult to dial in your feed to where you never have to dump without lab equipment and the skills to use it
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check out the article.... its literally on what u are talking about.. might help
 
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Wastei

Wastei

Well-Known Member
JonCreighton said:
u posted basically a marketing article from someone trying to sell nuits... i posted an article from the possible the leading plant sciewntist in the country and tried to start a discussion... Im not trying to get on ya but thats sugar information man... its probable going to hurt u more than it helps you... and i got nothing against current culturre im setting up their original system at the moment... but thats i got a bridge to seel u stuff
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Re-read that again. I haven't posted any article. I'm just saying being new to a forum and the first thing you do is to call everybody insane is not the smartest thing when asking for help.

You where asking about rez change intervals, the article covered that. Try using spacing and comma. It's hard to understand/read what you are posting.
 
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dbz

dbz

Well-Known Member
JonCreighton said:
thats not what the article says.... actually i think the article (written by bugbee and cited by ALOT) says all the complicated monitoring causes more problems... it gives rather simple insturctions on what slices are being removed at different time and how to replenish them... Bugbees advice literally taken from the article is to make premixes for different stages of groth... this is not really difficult to do... but what makes it really easy w weed is the numbers break out to basically the same the whole time... (also keep in mind the mass balance princ)

if ur going off the article and my estimates from it it comes to this...

starts 20-8-20 12cal 7mag 7 sul (this is what u want to hold)

veg 20-4-20 8cal 3mag 3 sul (this is what is being taken from plant at that time so thats what u replace)
stretch 20-3-20 8cal 3mag 3sul
flower 20-4-20 4cal 3mag 3sul

maintain a 1.2ish ec... ec drops to 1.1 add the right mix based on the time to bring back up to 1.2...
Click to expand...
Alright man, you know it all obviously. How do you think he knows what is being taken up? Do you think all phenotypes and strains take the exact same amount of nutrients? I have some snake oil if you are interested.
How about instead of coming and asking for advice while your mind is already made up, you just make a new site called Ialreadyknowtheanswer.com and tell everyone how to do with your vast experience of reading a few papers from Bugbee.
Noone here will put down Bugbee, but your understanding of how he arrives at his conclusions and your failure to recognize the facilities and resources he has at hand is whatever.
Have fun dude. Good luck growing.
 
A e o n

A e o n

Well-Known Member
I worked in a 4 acre hydroponic greenhouse that used raceway style dwc. They never changed out their water even over the course of 3-5 years. This was attained using extremely high volumes of nutrient solution over what is normally used, and sending in the nutrient solution of each of the 10 different "ponds" to a lab every 3.5 days for analysis. Then I would look at the plants and with visual diagnosis plus the results from the lab, I would add specific fertilizer salts to get levels back into our desired range for optimal growth. For example we needed more sulfur in pond 5; so typically you would add magnesium sulfate, but in this instance we had adequate magnesium levels. So we cant add this, or the magnesium would get to high. So what about potassium sulfate? IF levels of potassium are on the low end , doing the proper math I would see if adding potassium sulfate to get to the desired PPM of S would increase the K levels above the threshold. If it did not, potassium sulfate would be added to fix the S issue without overdoing magnesium or potassium. If it would make K rise above the threshold we wouldn't be able to use that either; I would then look at the next choice, Iron sulfate for example, until all elements are brought into optimal ranges. In the stock room we had every fertilizer salt combination, and you continue in this manner with all the different elements until they have been brought back to desired levels. We also topped off with plain water every couple of days. The key to never changing out water is huge reservoir, bi weekly lab analysis, vast array of fertilizer salts, and injecting O2 from tanks into the water to bring DO to 22-25PPM doesn't hurt either (prevention against pythium which works most the time). It can be done, I did it, and the other 4+ acres greenhouses were DWC using the same style. With that said, I run DTW alot and get great results using that. So if you're smart, you can run either drip to waste or go all the way to never changing out water for years and get healthy plants from both... Just have to use the right tools and go for it.
 
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Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
A e o n said:
I used to work in a 4 acre hydroponic greenhouse that used raceway style dwc. They never changed out their water even over the course of 3-5 years. This was attained using extremely high volumes of nutrient solution over what is normally used, and sending in the nutrient solution of each of the 10 different "ponds" to a lab every 3.5 days for analysis. Then I would look at the plants and with visual diagnosis plus the results from the lab, I would add specific fertilizer salts to get levels back into our desired range for optimal growth. For example we needed more sulfur in pond 5; so typically you would add magnesium sulfate, but in this instance we had adequate magnesium levels. So we cant add this, or the magnesium would get to high. So what about potassium sulfate? IF levels of potassium are on the low end , doing the proper math I would see if adding potassium sulfate to get to the desired PPM of S would increase the K levels above the threshold. If it did not, potassium sulfate would be added to fix the S issue without overdoing magnesium or potassium. If it would make K rise above the threshold we wouldn't be able to use that either; I would then look at the next choice, Iron sulfate for example, until all elements are brought into optimal ranges. In the stock room we had every fertilizer salt combination, and you continue in this manner with all the different elements until they have been brought back to desired levels. We also topped off with plain water every couple of days. The key to never changing out water is huge reservoir, bi weekly lab analysis, vast array of fertilizer salts, and injecting O2 from tanks into the water to bring DO to 22-25PPM doesn't hurt either (prevention against pythium which works most the time). It can be done, I did it, and the other 4+ acres greenhouses were DWC using the same style. With that said, I run DTW alot and get great results using that. So if you're smart, you can run either drip to waste or go all the way to never changing out water for years and get healthy plants from both... Just have to use the right tools and go for it.
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That's great! I don't believe anybody doubts that it's possible, but doing it in your normal everyday basement grow room? I suppose you could probably pull that off, given you have the experience, and maybe a few other guys here. I tried. It doesn't work for me. I'm just in a 4 gallon bucket though. Lol
 
A e o n

A e o n

Well-Known Member
Hollatchaboy said:
That's great! I don't believe anybody doubts that it's possible, but doing it in your normal everyday basement grow room? I suppose you could probably pull that off, given you have the experience, and maybe a few other guys here. I tried. It doesn't work for me. I'm just in a 4 gallon bucket though. Lol
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Id change every 3-5 days if you just have 1 bucket. such little quantity is ez to change out. Ive been running 10+ light HID personal grows on the side for a decade and I enjoy my DTW, so I understand you. Keep it fresh is the key, always adding something every couple days if reusing solution
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
A e o n said:
Id change every 3-5 days if you just have 1 bucket. such little quantity is ez to change out. Ive been running 10+ light HID personal grows on the side for a decade and I enjoy my DTW, so I understand you. Keep it fresh is the key, always adding something every couple days if reusing solution
Click to expand...
I change out as soon as I lose control of the ph, which is 2-3 days. It is easy to change out and I feel it's better than adding copious amounts of ph up or down.
 
J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
dbz said:
Alright man, you know it all obviously. How do you think he knows what is being taken up? Do you think all phenotypes and strains take the exact same amount of nutrients? I have some snake oil if you are interested.
How about instead of coming and asking for advice while your mind is already made up, you just make a new site called Ialreadyknowtheanswer.com and tell everyone how to do with your vast experience of reading a few papers from Bugbee.
Noone here will put down Bugbee, but your understanding of how he arrives at his conclusions and your failure to recognize the facilities and resources he has at hand is whatever.
Have fun dude. Good luck growing.
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"Many research scientists dump out nutrient solutions and refill at weekly intervals. Some authors have recommended automated measurement and control of individual nutrients in solution as essential to nutrient control. However, two decades of research in hydroponics has shown us that dumping and replacing solution is unnecessary. Monitoring ions in solution at frequent intervals is extremely expensive and not always necessary"
bruce bugbee - literally from the first paragraph of the paper

if u wanted to follow the bugbees methodology from this paper the only facilities you would need is an excell spreadsheet.

im flabbergasted that u would put forth an answer without even looking at the article posted. cmon man
 
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J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
A e o n said:
I worked in a 4 acre hydroponic greenhouse that used raceway style dwc. They never changed out their water even over the course of 3-5 years. This was attained using extremely high volumes of nutrient solution over what is normally used, and sending in the nutrient solution of each of the 10 different "ponds" to a lab every 3.5 days for analysis. Then I would look at the plants and with visual diagnosis plus the results from the lab, I would add specific fertilizer salts to get levels back into our desired range for optimal growth. For example we needed more sulfur in pond 5; so typically you would add magnesium sulfate, but in this instance we had adequate magnesium levels. So we cant add this, or the magnesium would get to high. So what about potassium sulfate? IF levels of potassium are on the low end , doing the proper math I would see if adding potassium sulfate to get to the desired PPM of S would increase the K levels above the threshold. If it did not, potassium sulfate would be added to fix the S issue without overdoing magnesium or potassium. If it would make K rise above the threshold we wouldn't be able to use that either; I would then look at the next choice, Iron sulfate for example, until all elements are brought into optimal ranges. In the stock room we had every fertilizer salt combination, and you continue in this manner with all the different elements until they have been brought back to desired levels. We also topped off with plain water every couple of days. The key to never changing out water is huge reservoir, bi weekly lab analysis, vast array of fertilizer salts, and injecting O2 from tanks into the water to bring DO to 22-25PPM doesn't hurt either (prevention against pythium which works most the time). It can be done, I did it, and the other 4+ acres greenhouses were DWC using the same style. With that said, I run DTW alot and get great results using that. So if you're smart, you can run either drip to waste or go all the way to never changing out water for years and get healthy plants from both... Just have to use the right tools and go for it.
Click to expand...
could u have pulled it off from visual cues alone?

can i ask what u used from PH down.
also assuming u were growing cannabis i would be curious about roughly where u wanted to be total ec wise?
thanks

great post btw
 
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J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
A e o n said:
Id change every 3-5 days if you just have 1 bucket. such little quantity is ez to change out. Ive been running 10+ light HID personal grows on the side for a decade and I enjoy my DTW, so I understand you. Keep it fresh is the key, always adding something every couple days if reusing solution
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ya changin a few gallon no big deal... id take me 3 days to get all the filtered water id need lol...
 
J

JonCreighton

Well-Known Member
Wastei said:
Re-read that again. I haven't posted any article. I'm just saying being new to a forum and the first thing you do is to call everybody insane is not the smartest thing when asking for help.

You where asking about rez change intervals, the article covered that. Try using spacing and comma. It's hard to understand/read what you are posting.
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my b i didnt mean to come off combative. the punctuation thing is just how i think. its kinda funny when i started being able to type faster someone was next to me and was like man u type exactly how u think. idk if anyone heard that joe rogan and kayne interview where kaynes mind would kinda jump tracks and hed start rolling from some dum thing to another dumb thing then hed go "BING". like he didnt even know where the thought begun and where he whent off the rails but people in my family been doing that DING thing w me for years... like ill be railing on about some dum shit and my brother will go "DING" and i know to zip it lol... when i type it feels better for me to just hammer the .... thing and roll on w the thought. honestly when i start breaking everything into sentences i feel like i loose my flow lol

but i guess what i was saying is why would u trust current culture marketing material over bugbees scholarly article?
 
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