Why does my humidity spike at lights out?

Renfro

Well-Known Member
I thought this would be helpful for some.

Three things are at play, major factors anyways, aside from ambient humidity and whatnot.

1) Biomass - As the plants grow the amount of water respired is directly proportional to biomass. When the plants hit a certain size (I like to call it critical mass lol) the dehumidification is at some point unable to keep up with the plants respiration. When this happens, the room will suddenly start having humidity spikes at lights out since the dehu can't keep up and the humidity just builds up. It only takes a few minutes when the lights go out and my AC stops running for a large biomass to push the RH% up from 40% to 50%. Defoliation and lollipopping help to mitigate some of the biomass and allows for more airflow inside the plant.

2) Temperature - Cooler air holds less water. So with the same absolute humidity, cooling the air say at lights out means the relative humidity rises. This is a bigger factor than you might imagine. For example, lets take some air that's at 80 F and 50% RH. Lets cool that same air to 70 F without pulling a single drop of moisture out of the air. We now end up at about 74% RH! The chart below shows the absolute humidity for air at a given temperature, you can reference this number on the same table in a different temperature row and see how the relative humidity number changes.

Absolute-Humidity-air-CF.png

So in the chart we look at 50% column and 80.6 row and we get 11.34 grams of water per kilogram of air. Looking at numbers that approximate that value in other temperature rows, we can see that at 69.8F we are up closer to 75% with 11.73. This is also why using cold air can be a great dehumidifier. So in the winter you can use cold air intake (filtered) to counter your heat load from lighting but also combat humidity levels. In the summer things change unless you are lucky to live in a dry climate that has cool nights. Air that's at 35F and 75% is very dry and blowing it into a 80 degree room will drop the humidity fast as the absolute humidity is around 2 grams per kilogram, when at 75 degrees that's less than 15% RH.

One may notice how powdery mildew seems to always start on the bottom and inner parts of a plant? Well it's cooler there! Those few degrees make a big difference. Lets say we are at 80F and 50% canopy, but the bottoms are at 75F, we are now at 60%! So keeping some balance of the canopy drier at say 40% or the bottoms warmer at 80F would be ideal.

3) Dehumidification - This is actually temp related and I touched on it a little bit already but dehumidifiers pull a lot more water from the air at 80F than they do at 70F. Those few degrees make a big difference in the RH% in the room AND the ability of the dehumidifier to pull water.

Managing humidity in your grow can become a very delicate balancing act when the biomass is large. This can be a constant problem for those in climates with high humidity. Understanding the factors involved will give you the tools you need to prevent powdery mildew and bud rot from ruining your crop.

When all else fails, grow a strain that is mold and mildew resistant such as Durban Poison.
 

booms111

Well-Known Member
@Renfro -This is the number one thing that I feel most growers even seasoned ones over look for some reason. I see it all the time and many just don't want to hear it. I can watch on my humidity/temp graph in real time as the temp hits it's lowest peak the humidity spikes it's highest percentage. When i see humidity levels in the 60% during lights on you can pretty much guarantee if nothing is done to help during lights off and you have some fat tops in later stage of bloom your setting yourself up for potential mold. Over and over i see buds posted with guys super happy to show off there fat top colas and i spot bud rot on there buds but i just keep my mouth shut(usually) because it usually creates drama.

Great post Renfro!!!
 
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Gond00s

Well-Known Member
Keep the air moving in high humidity situations.
I did that, just no ruined a harvest so that's not going to do anything when your humidity is spiking then its causing mold in your bud and you wont even notice till its to late
While air movement is important, simply moving humid air around will not mitigate the actual humidity. Air circulation can help reduce the micro climates that can cause certain areas to become significantly more humid than others by equalizing the humidity in the space.
Very true, im not sure about this bud I have noticed spikes with rh causing bud rot / mold to form during light was 30 rh lights off it spiked to 60-65 rh now I think I have them nice and good I have a 400 watt oil rad and a fan blowing on it keeps my room temp at 78+ at night I have a digital timer just running it 10 mins before lights out so it can warm up a bit
 

Patrice22

Active Member
I have noticed that smell increases dramatically after lights out. I noticed when passing the extraction pipe just after lights out that I could smell it so I replaced my filter but recently I was in the groom as lights went out and smells increased massively almost straight away.

I guess this is a temperature/humidity issue?
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
I thought this would be helpful for some.

Three things are at play, major factors anyways, aside from ambient humidity and whatnot.

1) Biomass - As the plants grow the amount of water respired is directly proportional to biomass. When the plants hit a certain size (I like to call it critical mass lol) the dehumidification is at some point unable to keep up with the plants respiration. When this happens, the room will suddenly start having humidity spikes at lights out since the dehu can't keep up and the humidity just builds up. It only takes a few minutes when the lights go out and my AC stops running for a large biomass to push the RH% up from 40% to 50%. Defoliation and lollipopping help to mitigate some of the biomass and allows for more airflow inside the plant.

2) Temperature - Cooler air holds less water. So with the same absolute humidity, cooling the air say at lights out means the relative humidity rises. This is a bigger factor than you might imagine. For example, lets take some air that's at 80 F and 50% RH. Lets cool that same air to 70 F without pulling a single drop of moisture out of the air. We now end up at about 74% RH! The chart below shows the absolute humidity for air at a given temperature, you can reference this number on the same table in a different temperature row and see how the relative humidity number changes.

View attachment 4429236

So in the chart we look at 50% column and 80.6 row and we get 11.34 grams of water per kilogram of air. Looking at numbers that approximate that value in other temperature rows, we can see that at 69.8F we are up closer to 75% with 11.73. This is also why using cold air can be a great dehumidifier. So in the winter you can use cold air intake (filtered) to counter your heat load from lighting but also combat humidity levels. In the summer things change unless you are lucky to live in a dry climate that has cool nights. Air that's at 35F and 75% is very dry and blowing it into a 80 degree room will drop the humidity fast as the absolute humidity is around 2 grams per kilogram, when at 75 degrees that's less than 15% RH.

One may notice how powdery mildew seems to always start on the bottom and inner parts of a plant? Well it's cooler there! Those few degrees make a big difference. Lets say we are at 80F and 50% canopy, but the bottoms are at 75F, we are now at 60%! So keeping some balance of the canopy drier at say 40% or the bottoms warmer at 80F would be ideal.

3) Dehumidification - This is actually temp related and I touched on it a little bit already but dehumidifiers pull a lot more water from the air at 80F than they do at 70F. Those few degrees make a big difference in the RH% in the room AND the ability of the dehumidifier to pull water.

Managing humidity in your grow can become a very delicate balancing act when the biomass is large. This can be a constant problem for those in climates with high humidity. Understanding the factors involved will give you the tools you need to prevent powdery mildew and bud rot from ruining your crop.

When all else fails, grow a strain that is mold and mildew resistant such as Durban Poison.
I saw the title and that you were the OP. I knew you wouldn't be asking this question for yourself, lol. Good info though for sure like always.
 

Jesusgrowsmygrass

Well-Known Member
I remember hearing doing a sunrise/sunset (gradual increase and decrease in light intensity) will limit the humidity spikes, has anyone tried this to limit humidity spikes?
 

GrowingRx

Active Member
Thanks for the reminder. :)
Still a new grower myself, my first grow this bit of info never made it my way. The fight with PM was..."fun"...but i came out on top!
After trying to find out what could have been the issues, it dawned on me that i wasn't paying attention to my night time humidity. This last grow I was a lot more attentive to what was going on at night, didnt let the humidity go pass 50% at night in flower and had much better results. Nearly 50% increase in yield without having sick plants.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
This chart illustrates the humidity spike phenomenon in one of my flowering rooms.

data.PNG

The lights go off at 3:45 AM, you can see the humidity rising despite the vent cycle bringing in fresh cold and very dry air. If not for that vent cycle and dry air my dehumidifiers wouldn't stand a chance of keeping up and the humidity climbs into the upper 50's. You can see that during the lights off period, the dehumidifiers in that room are struggling to maintain the RH% and the room temp climbs from 75 to 80 and the blower kicks in really helping the RH% situation. You can see the RH% drop a little bit when the temp drops during the dark, without that it would just climb and level out in the upper 50's about 7 or 8 hours after lights out. I only have it vent down to 75 because the colder the air is the less effective the dehumidifiers are.

It's a real balancing act and it wouldn't be possible for me with so much biomass without the dry air to blow in and massive amounts of dehumidification. I have a 150 pint commercial, 80 pint kenmore, 100 pint commercial and another little 40 pint unit all in that room cranking hard non stop. I never had this problem with soil despite running the same number of plants and pot size. The plants with the coco drink a LOT more and the results are a LOT more transpiration of humidity and what is looking like a really awesome harvest provided I can maintain the RH% and not get bud rot or PM. Fingers crossed!

If I am to continue down the road of growing in coco I will have to figure out more power for more dehumidification. My 125 amp grow sub panel is pretty maxed out at 85 / 90 amps on the two legs, the Quest 205 I have in the other flowering room had to steal some amps from the main panel since it needed a dedicated 20 amp 120 volt feed. I would definitely need at least that much more dehumidification for room A. Real issue, I only have a 150 amp main for the whole house :/ Really pushing all the limits of that 1300 sqft basement and 150 amp main.

Never had to dedicate so much effort and power to dehumidification, even running pure hydro in Missouri where the ambient RH% is much higher than here in Colorado. I really don't understand why the coco is making this happen. yeah the plants are massive but not more so than the crops I have done in soil.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
I remember hearing doing a sunrise/sunset (gradual increase and decrease in light intensity) will limit the humidity spikes, has anyone tried this to limit humidity spikes?
Might be worth experimenting with if one had a lighting setup like perhaps the gavita one that would be able to automatically do that on a schedule. I for one don't have that. I think a side by side with two rooms would be required to verify that it has any positive effect on the RH% spike.

One thing that does help if you can manage it, don't water anytime near when the lights go off. I try to water at least 5 hours before lights out but when my coco plants in 10 gallon pots are at peak drink like say day 14 to 50 of 12/12 I have to water them every 4 to 6 hours even when the lights are out! U use a soil moisture meter and I can't let the coco dry out all the way but I let it get halfway dry or just a hair drier and when they are watered they get 2.5 gallons per 10 gallon pot to obtain about 20% runoff. They are just drinking like mad. Never had to use so much water before, my RO filter pretty much runs non stop for about a month and at times I am thankful for my 300 gallon vertical storage tank. When I am trying to get a 55 gallon drum in veg filled at the same time as a 30 in each flowering room and I need the water in the flowering rooms in 4 to 6 hours you can see my dilemma even with a 350 GPD RO filter and 65 PSI supply pressure.
 

christopher jordan

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reminder. :)
Still a new grower myself, my first grow this bit of info never made it my way. The fight with PM was..."fun"...but i came out on top!
After trying to find out what could have been the issues, it dawned on me that i wasn't paying attention to my night time humidity. This last grow I was a lot more attentive to what was going on at night, didnt let the humidity go pass 50% at night in flower and had much better results. Nearly 50% increase in yield without having sick plants.
By the way how did you treat the pm?
 
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cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
interessting read, never thought about that plants in coco drink that much more.
More RO water would be probably easy to make while not a solution at all like it sounds.
Isnt a 500gdp filter a direct drop in for the 350? just new 500gdp membrane needed.

Hope you get it under control, humidity is really difficult to deal with.
You wrote probably somewhere, but may i ask whats your outside RH and temp in colorado?
 

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
Hey @Renfro , my slab is radiant heat and during winter I struggle to keep my rh up whether lights are on or off. I dont need my exhaust running all the time, what's a good control for that? I dont think one that is controlled by rh will work, it'd never come on lol(mid 40%) do you know of a timer you could recommend and how often should it cycle off/on?
I guess it should be known that I grow cab style with the flower side on top of my veg cab. I pull air thru the veg side.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
Hey @Renfro , my slab is radiant heat and during winter I struggle to keep my rh up whether lights are on or off. I dont need my exhaust running all the time, what's a good control for that? I dont think one that is controlled by rh will work, it'd never come on lol(mid 40%) do you know of a timer you could recommend and how often should it cycle off/on?
I guess it should be known that I grow cab style with the flower side on top of my veg cab. I pull air thru the veg side.
Use a temperature controller like an inkbird to control the exhaust.


If you wanna get the RH% up you can put an evaporative cooler (swamp cooler) on a humidity controller. When my biomass is small I use swamp coolers to raise the RH%. When the plants get big I need to use dehumidifiers to lower it. I use my Autopilots to control things since I have CO2. They are able to stop CO2 enrichment when venting.
 

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
Use a temperature controller like an inkbird to control the exhaust.


If you wanna get the RH% up you can put an evaporative cooler (swamp cooler) on a humidity controller. When my biomass is small I use swamp coolers to raise the RH%. When the plants get big I need to use dehumidifiers to lower it. I use my Autopilots to control things since I have CO2. They are able to stop CO2 enrichment when venting.
Cool, thanks for the link. This will be my first try at turning the fan off so I'm hoping the rh may rise on both veg/flower levels this winter.
 
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