Why flushing is a myth yes and no explained!

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Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
kOijin, thanks for taking the time to chat with me. Where i was going with my question is here, since leaves can store excess food to some degree, and chlorophyll, and the buds contain chlorophyll that all have to go through a chemichal reaction to reach an optimal curetime. And we intend to dry the buds and small amount of leaf debris that inherently stays after trimming to smoke. Wouldnt the OPs claim that unflushed buds vs flushed buds dry time be noticably different be correct? The time, i belive was the main point he was stating and its relation to doing or not doing a flush. The time is the test, maybe its his take on everything else which may grab people the wrong way but i believe hi main point makes sence, do you?
 
G

GK1

Active Member
Ok, I dont have time to read all this BS but let me tell ya something about synthetic chelators.....they cling to the root and allow absorption while not being absorbed. They are left free, looking for the next ion to grab and make available to the plant. That ion can be heavy metals just as easy as NPK. As time goes on you add more nutes, thus more synthetic chelators and the potential for heavy metal absorption increases.....on and on. Hmmm, no benefit to flushing? Child please. Peace.
 
G

GK1

Active Member
One of the problems to understanding this is looking at nutes as "food" rather than building blocks.....the phloem flows/carries pre-photosynthesis and the Xylem flows/carries post photosynthesis. Nute ions are used as building blocks rather than food that is consumed, this concept helps to understand the translocation of nutes around the plant when def occurs. To say they "store" NPK is a misnomer however. They store sugar/carbs. Temp dif can be used to encourage a storage of carbs during veg and to spur the later utilization during bloom. Peace.
 
R

ruudong

Active Member
all i know is i flushed 1 plant,
kept nutes going in second plant ,
the plant that i flushed was ready sooner and tasted great

the plant i did not flush took longer to finish yield was more or less the same
but the taste was very harsh on the chest and lost a lot of the original flavor this was using strain blue cheese
 
littlegiant

littlegiant

Well-Known Member
Wow! spent an hour reading all the posts here and everyone has a different scientific theory on this with not one shred of evidence that flushing is better or does nothing.
The only evidence is personal preference.
So here is my scientific theory.
I would never shit and piss in my toilet every day for a few months without flushing.
Whyyyy? Duh!
 
zubey91

zubey91

Well-Known Member
littlegiant said:
Wow! spent an hour reading all the posts here and everyone has a different scientific theory on this with not one shred of evidence that flushing is better or does nothing.
The only evidence is personal preference.
So here is my scientific theory.
I would never shit and piss in my toilet every day for a few months without flushing.
Whyyyy? Duh!
Click to expand...
Lol
(makes farting sound)
 
akula

akula

Active Member
GK1 said:
One of the problems to understanding this is looking at nutes as "food" rather than building blocks.....the phloem flows/carries pre-photosynthesis and the Xylem flows/carries post photosynthesis. Nute ions are used as building blocks rather than food that is consumed, this concept helps to understand the translocation of nutes around the plant when def occurs. To say they "store" NPK is a misnomer however. They store sugar/carbs. Temp dif can be used to encourage a storage of carbs during veg and to spur the later utilization during bloom. Peace.
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Your partially right here. You did however confuse the xylem/phloem systems. Xylem is the upward flow driven by surface tension and destination leaves. Phloem is the "downward" system driven by osmotic pressure differences that carries sugars/carbs to the sinks.
 
k0ijn

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Ninjabowler said:
kOijin, thanks for taking the time to chat with me. Where i was going with my question is here, since leaves can store excess food to some degree, and chlorophyll, and the buds contain chlorophyll that all have to go through a chemichal reaction to reach an optimal curetime. And we intend to dry the buds and small amount of leaf debris that inherently stays after trimming to smoke. Wouldnt the OPs claim that unflushed buds vs flushed buds dry time be noticably different be correct? The time, i belive was the main point he was stating and its relation to doing or not doing a flush. The res of the OP was just his take on everything else which may grab people the wrong way but i believe hi main point makes sence, do you?
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There are a few variables which can change how quickly the plant material dries.
Let's assume that the two plants were grown to the same extent, with similar calyxes and hydration.
The only difference; one was fertilized all the way to chop. The other was given only water 2-3 weeks (or whatever time) up to chop.

There would not be a difference in those two, drying wise, since the hydration which saturates the plants would be equal and therefore evaporate equally.
The difference in nutrient levels would not affect the drying time. I'll get back to the difference in nutrient levels further down.

Whether there would be a difference in chlorophyll and how large/small it might be is very difficult to say.
Most growers don't let their calyxes wither, and therefore most growers will basically hover around a normal chlorophyll level in the sugar leaves and calyxes.
Some may have deficient fan leaves, others might not.
But the part of the plant we're smoking does usually not vary in moisture level, nutrient levels nor chlorophyll levels.

What truly affects the drying time is the water potential, the tissue water content so to speak.
To clarify; The water retention and moisture inside the plant determines how long it takes to dry the plant (including the calyxes).
Of course variables like humidity, temperature etc. would all affect the time, but I assume we're talking exact same variables for both and thus it's irrelevant.


The difference in levels of nutrients, I would stipulate, is not great enough to be noticeable.
What you see is a 3 times higher nutrient concentration in normally fed plants vs. a deficiency (which pre-harvest flushins causes).
But the concentration in normally fed plants is really not that high.
In facts it's rather low.
When we measure how large the concentration is, we measure in ions in millimolar (mM).
And what you see is around ~0.5 - ~9 ions in the leaf material, in normally fed plants.
In deficient plants you see; ~0.2 - ~3 ions in leaf material.

The levels are really quite low, if you look at how many ions you have in a grain of salt it's: 6.97 X 10^17.
This number is very large, if I were to type it out for you it would look something like this; 6,970,000,000,000,000,000.00 -
I've probably made an error there typing it out, but you get the point, it's around 6.97 quadrillion.

And yet some people claim they can taste, smell and feel a difference (harshness wise etc.) between pre-harvest flushed weed and normally grown weed.
I find this strange.
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
k0ijn said:
There are a few variables which can change how quickly the plant material dries.
Let's assume that the two plants were grown to the same extent, with similar calyxes and hydration.
The only difference; one was fertilized all the way to chop. The other was given only water 2-3 weeks (or whatever time) up to chop.

There would not be a difference in those two, drying wise, since the hydration which saturates the plants would be equal and therefore evaporate equally.
The difference in nutrient levels would not affect the drying time. I'll get back to the difference in nutrient levels further down.

Whether there would be a difference in chlorophyll and how large/small it might be is very difficult to say.
Most growers don't let their calyxes wither, and therefore most growers will basically hover around a normal chlorophyll level in the sugar leaves and calyxes.
Some may have deficient fan leaves, others might not.
But the part of the plant we're smoking does usually not vary in moisture level, nutrient levels nor chlorophyll levels.

What truly affects the drying time is the water potential, the tissue water content so to speak.
To clarify; The water retention and moisture inside the plant determines how long it takes to dry the plant (including the calyxes).
Of course variables like humidity, temperature etc. would all affect the time, but I assume we're talking exact same variables for both and thus it's irrelevant.


The difference in levels of nutrients, I would stipulate, is not great enough to be noticeable.
What you see is a 3 times higher nutrient concentration in normally fed plants vs. a deficiency (which pre-harvest flushins causes).
But the concentration in normally fed plants is really not that high.
In facts it's rather low.
When we measure how large the concentration is, we measure in ions in millimolar (mM).
And what you see is around ~0.5 - ~9 ions in the leaf material, in normally fed plants.
In deficient plants you see; ~0.2 - ~3 ions in leaf material.
The levels are really quite low, if you look at how many ions you have in a grain of salt it's: 6.97 X 10^17.
This number is very large, if I were to type it out for you it would look something like this; 6,970,000,000,000,000,000.00 -
I've probably made an error there typing it out, but you get the point, it's around 6.97 quadrillion.

And yet some people claim they can taste, smell and feel a difference (harshness wise etc.) between pre-harvest flushed weed and normally grown weed.
I find this strange.
Click to expand...
You say that the difference in moisture content in a pre harvest flush plant vs. a non flushed plant is the same but i disagree. Which is fine, no biggie. From my limited expirence ive noticed non flushed plants remain more vital at chop with more moisture rich green matter on the plant where the flushed plant has cannibalized itself and dried the leaves out to the point where a vigorus shake removes them. This is why i agree with the OP and thats why i posted the question earlier, if i should flush a hydro plant that is still as green as the day i flipped the lights oh her and shes almost done, just to kill her a bit already. Although it would be in my best interest to poke you with a couple more questions since you are a fountain of knowledge ill save it for another day. Thanks for the info.
 
k0ijn

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Ninjabowler said:
You say that the difference in moisture content in a pre harvest flush plant vs. a non flushed plant is the same but i disagree. Which is fine, no biggie. From my limited expirence ive noticed non flushed plants remain more vital at chop with more moisture rich green matter on the plant where the flushed plant has cannibalized itself and dried the leaves out to the point where a vigorus shake removes them. This is why i agree with the OP and thats why i posted the question earlier, if i should flush a hydro plant that is still as green as the day i flipped the lights oh her and shes almost done, just to kill her a bit already. Although it would be in my best interest to poke you with a couple more questions since you are a fountain of knowledge ill save it for another day. Thanks for the info.
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You don't smoke the fan leaves.
You smoke the calyxes.

The only time I see "cannibalized" calyxes is when the plant is near death or has infestation or some other disease.

You have to remember that just because you've caused a deficiency in the fan leaves doesn't mean you've removed anything from the calyxes.
It takes quite a long time for a deficiency to negatively affect the calyxes, since the plant will start to feed on itself to sustain the flowering.
I think you are misunderstanding where the deficiency actually occurs.
And I would argue that most pre-harvest flushers don't flush their plants for so long a hard shake will rid the plant of fan leaves.
Most pre-harvest flushed plants I see have yellow leaves, showing a deficiency has begun to take hold but nowhere near dying leaves.
I don't know where you got the conclusion about pre-harvest flushed plants have dead fan leaves.
And even if they did have dead fan leaves it wouldn't necessarily mean the calyxes were yet affected.

Look at Rumples crop, he's a strong advocate of pre-harvest flushing.
His plants don't look dry nor particularly famished.
His calyxes look nice and green, sugar leaves are still dark green.
Those plants he just harvested (according to his thread) look vigorous and fresh.
My point is that moisture levels are roughly the same in calyxes in pre-harvest flushed & non-flushed plants.


Either way, there really is no difference in moisture levels unless we're comparing a nearly dead plant to a vigorous plant.
And I think it's fairly factual to say that no pre-harvest flushers allow their plants to dry up.
I have never heard the argument of drying up the plant before harvest by pre-harvest flushing, when you're still giving them water it's really an oxymoron.
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
k0ijn said:
You don't smoke the fan leaves.
You smoke the calyxes.

The only time I see "cannibalized" calyxes is when the plant is near death or has infestation or some other disease.

You have to remember that just because you've caused a deficiency in the fan leaves doesn't mean you've removed anything from the calyxes.
It takes quite a long time for a deficiency to negatively affect the calyxes, since the plant will start to feed on itself to sustain the flowering.
I think you are misunderstanding where the deficiency actually occurs.
And I would argue that most pre-harvest flushers don't flush their plants for so long a hard shake will rid the plant of fan leaves.
Most pre-harvest flushed plants I see have yellow leaves, showing a deficiency has begun to take hold but nowhere near dying leaves.
I don't know where you got the conclusion about pre-harvest flushed plants have dead fan leaves.
And even if they did have dead fan leaves it wouldn't necessarily mean the calyxes were yet affected.

Look at Rumples crop, he's a strong advocate of pre-harvest flushing.
His plants don't look dry nor particularly famished.
His calyxes look nice and green, sugar leaves are still dark green.
Those plants he just harvested (according to his thread) look vigorous and fresh.
My point is that moisture levels are roughly the same in calyxes in pre-harvest flushed & non-flushed plants.


Either way, there really is no difference in moisture levels unless we're comparing a nearly dead plant to a vigorous plant.
And I think it's fairly factual to say that no pre-harvest flushers allow their plants to dry up.
I have never heard the argument of drying up the plant before harvest by pre-harvest flushing, when you're still giving them water it's really an oxymoron.
Click to expand...
We dont smoke the fan leaves but we do smoke parts of the sugar coated bud leaves, and even yellowing leaves would mean less moisture content to me. I belive the OP said he chopped the whole plant and hung that. To me it seems that hanging a cannibalized yellowing flushed plant that there would be a difference in drying time from one fed all the way through thats lush still. I guess well just have to disagree on this one :)
 
Uncle Pirate

Uncle Pirate

Active Member
Ninjabowler said:
We dont smoke the fan leaves but we do smoke parts of the sugar coated bud leaves, and even yellowing leaves would mean less moisture content to me. I belive the OP said he chopped the whole plant and hung that. To me it seems that hanging a cannibalized yellowing flushed plant that there would be a difference in drying time from one fed all the way through thats lush still. I guess well just have to disagree on this one :)
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:wall:

You're like a 4 year old constantly asking questions and not ever understanding what's being said. Really, yellowing leaves means less moisture to you? Go grow some plants and quit frying your brain in here.
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Pirate said:
:wall:

You're like a 4 year old constantly asking questions and not ever understanding what's being said. Really, yellowing leaves means less moisture to you? Go grow some plants and quit frying your brain in here.
Click to expand...
Sure does, this leaf feels quite dry to me lol, nice to see you again pirate.
 

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Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Pirate said:
:wall:

You're like a 4 year old constantly asking questions and not ever understanding what's being said. Really, yellowing leaves means less moisture to you? Go grow some plants and quit frying your brain in here.
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Actually im like a one year old, im sucking everything up right now and developing opinions of my own so when im old and expirienced i can stop learning and always be right on every topic like you :)
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Pirate said:
It looks like it was ready to fall off, which would account for the dryness, not the lack of chlorophyll. Find a yellow leaf that you have to tug to get off.
Click to expand...
How bout these two, theres still water leaking out of the yellowed one and the yellow ones noticably lighter, water depleted and chlorophyll robbed.
 

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Uncle Pirate

Uncle Pirate

Active Member
Ninjabowler said:
How bout these two, theres still water leaking out of the yellowed one and the green ones noticably lighter, water depleted and chlorophyll robbed.
Click to expand...
No shit? The one on the left is burnt to a crisp. You couldn't figure that one out just from using common sense?
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Uncle Pirate said:
No shit? The one on the left is burnt to a crisp. You couldn't figure that one out just from using common sense?
Click to expand...
That is a lower canopy fan leaf you say is burnt, and the top canopy leaves like the green one and all the others on her are not burnt....next guess please. This is why i can see the OPs point. Less water and chlorophyll should lead to a faster dry time when drying a whole hanging plant. Troll on UP, RIU is for learning and helping, were not here to listen to how many years youve been doing it the right way :peace:
 
k0ijn

k0ijn

Scientia Cannabis
Ninjabowler said:
We dont smoke the fan leaves but we do smoke parts of the sugar coated bud leaves, and even yellowing leaves would mean less moisture content to me. I belive the OP said he chopped the whole plant and hung that. To me it seems that hanging a cannibalized yellowing flushed plant that there would be a difference in drying time from one fed all the way through thats lush still. I guess well just have to disagree on this one :)
Click to expand...
I think we're going around in circles now.
I already pointed out how pre-harvest flushing doesn't really affect the moisture levels or water retention of calyxes and sugar leaves.

Sugar leaves are almost never yellowing/shriveled nor dead upon harvest.
Unless some disease or major mistake has taken hold.
Show me a picture of a withering sugar leaf on a properly grown calyx.
Even the most stringent pre-harvest flushers don't let their plants starve to such an extreme that the calyxes suffer.


I will again advice you to look at Rumples newest harvest.
Rumple pre-harvest flushes, yet his calyxes look just like mine do.
They are not yellowing or dying. In fact the sugar leaves and the other green parts of the calyxes themselves look very dark green.
A sign of the nutrients taken from the fan leaves being translocated into the calyxes to keep flowering going, even under deficiency.
Some of the fan leaves however might be yellowing or shriveling, and I think that's where your confusion comes in.

Even if you do pre-harvest flush you won't see adverse affects on the calyxes and/or sugar leaves unless you let this deficiency continue for months.
This is the crux of my position.
You must not confuse withering fan leaves with how the other parts of the plant functions and how it affects water retention.
Fan leaves shrivel and die all the time during a plants growth, it's normal.
When it happens due to a deficiency it happens because the plant is noticing it's not getting a steady stream of nutrients and thus is feeds on it's production facilities (fan leaves, lesser importance to survival) to sustain the vital flowers (highly important for survival).
Just because you pre-harvest flush it doesn't mean you draw out moisture from the calyxes nor the sugar leaves, because you are still giving the plants water.

The pictures you have shown here are of fan leaves and it really has no relevance to water potential (retention possibilities) in the cellular membranes.
You are seeing withering fan leaves and concluding that this must mean the plant has lost water and will dry quicker.
When in fact the stem(s), sugar leaves, calyxes, roots and everything but the fan leaves will still have the same moisture levels as always (unless you don't feed them any water, in which case the entire plant will shrivel and die obviously).
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
k0ijn said:
I think we're going around in circles now.
I already pointed out how pre-harvest flushing doesn't really affect the moisture levels or water retention of calyxes and sugar leaves.

Sugar leaves are almost never yellowing/shriveled nor dead upon harvest.
Unless some disease or major mistake has taken hold.
Show me a picture of a withering sugar leaf on a properly grown calyx.
Even the most stringent pre-harvest flushers don't let their plants starve to such an extreme that the calyxes suffer.


I will again advice you to look at Rumples newest harvest.
Rumple pre-harvest flushes, yet his calyxes look just like mine do.
They are not yellowing or dying. In fact the sugar leaves and the other green parts of the calyxes themselves look very dark green.
A sign of the nutrients taken from the fan leaves being translocated into the calyxes to keep flowering going, even under deficiency.
Some of the fan leaves however might be yellowing or shriveling, and I think that's where your confusion comes in.

Even if you do pre-harvest flush you won't see adverse affects on the calyxes and/or sugar leaves unless you let this deficiency continue for months.
This is the crux of my position.
You must not confuse withering fan leaves with how the other parts of the plant functions and how it affects water retention.
Fan leaves shrivel and die all the time during a plants growth, it's normal.
When it happens due to a deficiency it happens because the plant is noticing it's not getting a steady stream of nutrients and thus is feeds on it's production facilities (fan leaves, lesser importance to survival) to sustain the vital flowers (highly important for survival).
Just because you pre-harvest flush it doesn't mean you draw out moisture from the calyxes nor the sugar leaves, because you are still giving the plants water.

The pictures you have shown here are of fan leaves and it really has no relevance to water potential (retention possibilities) in the cellular membranes.
You are seeing withering fan leaves and concluding that this must mean the plant has lost water and will dry quicker.
When in fact the stem(s), sugar leaves, calyxes, roots and everything but the fan leaves will still have the same moisture levels as always (unless you don't feed them any water, in which case the entire plant will shrivel and die obviously).
Click to expand...
Yup, that why im saying that were going to disagree. I see lack of chlorophyll and water speeding the dry of the whole plant and you dont. Im mean, its not like i tested it myself, the OP did and i just think his claim is valid.
 
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