veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
Without language specifying a MMJ exemption in the H & S code, you are wrong, or lying.
Why I'm voting NO on prop. 19
- Thread starter veggiegardener
- Start date
- Status
I guess you have given up hope that people can make a difference. Enjoy flocking with the heard. Sheep.
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
So it is OK with you if we gamble that YOU are right? Supposition seems to be your M O. Stop it. Provide PROOF.
You are a shill for the powers behind this deeply flawed proposition. I hope you are well paid.
nathenking
Well-Known Member
I call em "Sheople" Have a mind of your own "sheople", dont just be like "We are gonna legalize man, Yeah" News FLASH: It wont be legal, it will be light proabition...
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
Another lie.
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
Wimp. I will never obey unjust law. This will be unjust. Wanna grow up to be a cop? They think that way.
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
The city of Oakland has stuff on the books I believe. This is a local issue, issue unrelated to Prop. 19.
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
sonar
Well-Known Member
It would be wonderful to live in a fairy tale world of rainbows and sunshine where greed and money don't exist, but we don't. With trillion dollar bail outs, a myriad of cradle to grave social welfare programs, and armies of government bureaucrats, don't you guys think somone has to pay for all this? Vices have always been a source of easy income for the government. The ONLY way cannabis will ever be legalized is if it is heavily taxed and regulated. They are going to need a whole new government department to employ the thousands of cops, judges, lawyers, sherriffs, probation officers, etc who would all potentially be out of work without the steady supply of income and human "merchandise" being provided through the "war on drugs."
You guys who think true legalization is actually a possibility need to put the bong down once in awhile and come back to reality. It will NEVER happen, period. There is too much money to be made on it. There are two possibilities: 1) the current system that throws people in jail and keeps their families perpetually impoverished or 2) a system of strict regulation and taxation that provides the government (and potentially big business) with plenty of money.
You guys who think true legalization is actually a possibility need to put the bong down once in awhile and come back to reality. It will NEVER happen, period. There is too much money to be made on it. There are two possibilities: 1) the current system that throws people in jail and keeps their families perpetually impoverished or 2) a system of strict regulation and taxation that provides the government (and potentially big business) with plenty of money.
Penni Walli
Member
you are completely right, all these guys have a hippie dream and living in some fantasy world that will never ever come true, finally some one that sees the truth and reality and works with it.
nathenking
Well-Known Member
Reality: Hemp Oil Cures Some Skin Cancer... I dont see that being introduced any where in the states... WHY??? MONEY???? So why let those same type of people that keep shit like that away from cancer patients and control MJ??? Seriously, gov't and corporations are the DEVIL... You dont want them in any of this MJ lifestyle... just a rant...lol
The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
Man, when I said something like that I had some fatalistic people telling me that I "just need to adapt" or some other BS... My view on 19 is something deeper than just weed, it's captures the essence of todays biggest problems: Do we let large corporations decide what happens in this country or do we make a stand and show them we are tired of them fucking our country over?
I am sure that a bunch of wannabe pro-19 sean hannity's will chime in and point out the "flaws" in my statement, but I really, really could give no less of a shit than I already do.
CultivationArt
Well-Known Member
my step father is a doctor at berkly medical center, hes not a lawer but know all laws, and legel right,
to both 215 & 19, and them together, belive it or not, this link best supports it .http://hightimes.com/blog/evan/6681?utm_source=rss_home
he says read it, DO NOT VOTE NO, this is simply the best thing for medical marijuana patients.
Here is my proof, and dan you know im well backed up with all my info, read this link on mmj patients and prop 19
your mind should revert quickly... thank you.. VOTE YES ON 19
to both 215 & 19, and them together, belive it or not, this link best supports it .http://hightimes.com/blog/evan/6681?utm_source=rss_home
he says read it, DO NOT VOTE NO, this is simply the best thing for medical marijuana patients.
Here is my proof, and dan you know im well backed up with all my info, read this link on mmj patients and prop 19
your mind should revert quickly... thank you.. VOTE YES ON 19
Weedscaper
Member
Wow VG
Thanks for the eye opener. You have really got me thinking and I appreciate that. This is all so crazy. I just love to garden and enjoy MJ and the experience of growing it. It IS just a plant. I hate to think MJ will turn into a Budweiser/William Morris type industry, but it sure looks headed that way...
Thanks for the eye opener. You have really got me thinking and I appreciate that. This is all so crazy. I just love to garden and enjoy MJ and the experience of growing it. It IS just a plant. I hate to think MJ will turn into a Budweiser/William Morris type industry, but it sure looks headed that way...
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
Here's the text of that pro Prop. 19 blog.
Guess what, I found NOTHING that clearly states that MMJ patients are exempt from the 25 square foot rule.
Our doctors don't and shouldn't specify the area needed to grow an adequate amount of medicine.
The vague language will make trial lawyers a lot of money if passed.
Every knowledgeable person weighing in on this seems to have a blind spot regarding area of cultivation.
I don't want some cop telling my HOW to grow my weed(at the very least).
Propositions like this are usually given a lot of thought concerning consequences. I believe the 25 sq. ft. rule is intended to aid the big boys to the detriment of MMJ patients.
The text.
*************************************************************************************
Blog
About Prop 19 - To Medical Marijuana Patients
by Evan Nison [contact]
Fri, Sep 10, 2010 12:28 am
more: medical marijuana, proposition 19, blog
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Below is an open leter I received from a Prop 19 supporter. It's long but certainly worth the read:
For my support of Prop. 19, I have been subject to the scorn, approbation and the most demoralizing denunciations imaginable by a group of medical marijuana patients exhibiting what can only be termed “medical reefer madness.”
With the best of intentions based on a poorly researched legal analysis, these anti-19 folks have joined forces with the people whose indifference and outright hostility have resulted in, and continue to result in, the arrest, prosecution and imprisonment of thousands of medical marijuana patients.
Their never-ending harangues that Prop. 215 will go into the trash can of history if Prop. 19 is passed is causing medical marijuana patients extreme anxiety and leading them to question their support of this historic and critical piece of reform legislation. Graphically describing the horrors that will descend like a plague of locusts on unsuspecting medical marijuana patients if Prop. 19 passes, the anti-19 cabal insinuates that we are being duped by unscrupulous and untrustworthy people like Chris Conrad, Judge Jim Gray, Dale Gerringer, Dr. Frank Lucido, State Senator Mark Leno, Assemblymember Tom Ammiano, Jeff Jones, Mark Emery and hundreds of others. To see a list of all their claimed enemies of medical marijuana patients, go to: www.taxcannabis2010.org/node/13
To reveal the fallacy of their arguments and to stop stressing patients, I asked my friend, and frankly the friend of every medical marijuana patient in the state of California, J. David Nick, to weigh in on the controversy.
For 18 years, David Nick has successfully litigated a cornucopia of issues regarding cannabis and the applicable laws in both trial and appellate courts. He has not confined his practice to marijuana law, but also litigates cases involving constitutional rights and criminal procedure.
David Nick has never lost a jury trial in a state marijuana case including many precedent setting trials involving some of the most revered figures in the medical marijuana movement such as Brownie Mary, Dennis Peron (Nick has been Peron’s sole attorney since 1994) and Steve Kubby.
One of Nick’s early defenses of Peron’s medical marijuana activism resulted in the first appellate court decision affirming that marijuana can be sold. Kubby’s case was the first large quantity (200 plants) case to be won on the argument that Kubby’s serious ailments necessitated his use of cannabis to keep him alive.
A recent case of interest to patients is the Strauss case, involving a farm in Mendocino County that cultivated marijuana exclusively for a collective in Los Angeles. Nick succeeded in getting a hung jury followed by outright dismissal of all charges involving 250 pounds of processed marijuana, 200 large marijuana plants and $1.5 million in several bank accounts - not exactly consistent with the idea of small collectives with everybody planting, harvesting, trimming and singing Kumbaya.
He is currently representing collectives in Palm Springs, Riverside and Los Angeles in preemptive lawsuits asserting the rights of collectives to provide medicine to their members without undue interference from local government officials.
Nick does not confine his practice to marijuana law, but is involved in significant federal criminal litigation.
His litigation has established the right not to be searched by sniffing dogs without probable cause. This is in contract to car searches where police can search you car for no reason at all.
His litigation has lead to policies requiring police to not draw weapons in a marijuana search unless they have information that the person being apprehended is dangerous.
He has successfully litigated jury trials utilizing a necessity for life defense in order to uphold the operation of needle exchange programs.
As far as I am concerned, these experiences qualify him to provide an opinion about Prop. 19 superior to those I have read from the “sky-is-falling” alarmists
Here is Mr. Nick’s analysis of the effects of Prop. 19 on medical marijuana patients. I will have a few more choice words for you to peruse at the conclusion of Mr. Nick’s thoughtful, rational, reasoned, and accurate analysis.
PROP. 19 IS THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MMJ PATIENTS SINCE PROP. 215
Anyone who claims that Proposition 19 will restrict or eliminate rights under the Compassionate Use Act (CUA) or the Medical Marijuana Program (MMP) is simply wrong. If anything, Proposition 19 will permit individuals to grow and possess much more than ever before with patients, coops and collectives still receiving the same protections they are entitled to under the CUA and MMP.
Here is why.
The legal arguments claiming the "sky will fall" if Prop. 19 passes are based on the fallacious conclusion that the Initiative invalidates the CUA and MMP. This baseless fear stems from a flawed legal analysis which focuses on just about every portion of Prop. 19 EXCEPT the relevant portions. This flawed legal analysis is driven by an incorrect understanding of the rules of statutory construction.
Although extrinsic materials (such as legislative committee memos or voter pamphlet arguments) may not be resorted to when the legislative language is clear, courts may never ignore the purpose of the legislation. Every interpretation a court gives a statute must be consistent with the purpose of the legislation. This is why statutes have long "preambles" which explicitly state the purposes of the legislation.
This rule is so controlling that a court is required to ignore the literal language of a legislative statute if it conflicts with the purpose of the legislation. By example I call attention to the appellate court case of Bell v. DMV. In this precedent setting case, the court ruled that a statute must be interpreted to apply to civil proceedings even though the statute they were interpreting stated it applied only to "criminal" proceedings. The court’s interpretation of the statute was consistent with the purposes of the legislation and the limitation to criminal cases in the statute itself was not.
PROP. 19 PROVIDES ADDITIONAL PROTECTIONS TO PATIENTS FROM THE ACTIONS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
Section 2B presents the controlling and relevant purposes for understanding what Prop. 19 can and cannot do. This section EXPRESSLY excludes the reach of Prop. 19 from the CUA and MMP. Sections 2B (7 &
specifically state that the purpose of this initiative is to give municipalities total and complete control over the commercial sales of marijuana "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.”
Prop. 19 makes it perfectly clear that the Initiative does NOT give municipalities any control over how medical marijuana patients obtain their medicine or how much they can possess and cultivate as the purpose of the legislation was to exempt the CUA and the MMP from local government reach. Whatever control municipalities have over patients and collectives is limited by the CUA and the MMP, not by Prop. 19.
To further reduce everyone’s understandable anxiety over allowing municipalities to unduly control collectives, I direct everyone’s attention to the last statute of the MMP, 11362.83, which reads. “Nothing in this article shall prevent a city or other local governing body from adopting and enforcing laws CONSISTENT with this article.”
Since collectives are expressly allowed, local ordinances banning them are not consistent with the MMP. Health and Safety Code Section 11362.83, which limits municipalities ability to ban coops or overly restrict them, is unaffected by Prop. 19 as it expressly states in Sections 2B (7 & that the laws created by Prop. 19 must be followed "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.”
PROP. 19 PROTECTS PATIENTS PERSONAL AND COLLECTIVE CULTIVATIONS
Further protecting patients from local law enforcement actions, Section 11303 states that ”no state or local law enforcement agency or official shall attempt to, threaten to, or in fact SEIZE or destroy any cannabis plant, cannabis seeds or cannabis that is LAWFULLY CULTIVATED.” If you are a patient, you may “lawfully cultivate” as much marijuana as medically necessary and Prop. 19 protects that right. If you are cultivating for a collective, you may “lawfully cultivate” as much marijuana as your collective allows you to and Prop. 19 protects that right. Unfortunately, many law enforcement officials refuse to recognize the rights provided under the MMP for collectives to “lawfully cultivate” and sell marijuana. Prop. 19 reinforces those rights and makes it even more difficult for law enforcement to bust a collective or collective grower.
IT WILL KEEP POLICE FROM COOPERATING WITH THE FEDS
As you can see from the above paragraph, the statutory scheme Prop. 19 creates expressly forbids law enforcement from seizing lawfully cultivated cannabis.
Prop. 19 will create an insurmountable barrier for local law enforcement which is still bent on depriving you of your rights through the despicable device of using federal law enforcement officers.
Here’s why.
Federal drug enforcement is nearly 100 percent dependent on the ability to use local law enforcement. They do not have the manpower to operate without it. Prop. 19 in no uncertain terms tells local law enforcement that they cannot even “attempt to” seize cannabis. If Prop. 19 passes, California will actually have a law on the books that expressly forbids local police from cooperating with the feds in the seizure of any “lawfully cultivated” California cannabis.
PROP. 19 DOES NOT LIMIT PATIENTS RIGHTS UNDER THE CUA & MMP
The nail in the coffin for those arguing against Prop. 19 is found in Section 2C (1). This is the only section which discusses which other laws the acts is "intended to limit" and nowhere in this section is the CUA or the MMP listed. If the purpose of Prop. 19 was "to limit" the application and enforcement of the CUA and MMP, those laws would have been listed along with all the other laws that are listed in Section 2C (1). Since the CUA and MMP were not listed, then Prop. 19 does not "limit" the CUA and MMP.
It’s that simple.
PROP. 19 MAKES IT EASIER FOR PATIENTS TO OBTAIN THEIR MEDICINE
Section 2B (6) states that one of the purposes of Prop. 19 is to “Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.” This section is one of the many reasons Prop. 19 is very good for patients. If Prop. 19 passes, the days of having to go through the hassle of getting a doctor’s recommendation to treat simple medical conditions will be coming to an end in those communities which allow Prop. 19 “stores" to exist. When you need an aspirin you do not have to go to a doctor and then to the health department and then to Walgreens - YOU JUST GO TO WALGREENS (the founder of which, Mr. Walgreen, became rich during prohibition by selling "medical" alcohol to patients who had obtained a prescription for alcohol from their doctor).
In those communities which are stubborn and will not allow Prop 19 "stores," patients will still have the protections of the CUA and MMP and the statutory right to form coops and collectives. Prop. 19 specifically recognizes that these rights are not invalidated and does nothing to limit the ability of patients to cultivate or form collectives or coops.
PROP. 19 ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE A LOT OF MARIJUANA
As an attorney called upon to defend patients and non-patients in marijuana cases, I cannot tell you how beneficial and how much freedom Section 11300 subdivision A (3) of Prop.19 will be to cannabis users. Read it!
Section 11300: Personal Regulation and Controls
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is lawful and shall not be a public offense under California law for any person 21 years of age or older to:
(i) Personally possess, process, share, or transport not more than one ounce of cannabis, solely for that individual’s personal consumption, and not for sale.
(iii) Possess on the premises where grown the living and harvested plants and results of ANY harvest and processing of plants lawfully cultivated pursuant to section 11300(a)(ii), for personal consumption.
Section (i) limits possession to one ounce OUT OF YOUR HOUSE. Section (iii) permits people 21 and over to have within their residence or single parcel ALL the cannabis which one grew in their 25 sq. foot parcel, including what you grew this year, what you grew last year and EVERY SINGLE 25 SQ. FT. HARVEST YOU EVER HAD ON THAT SINGLE PARCEL. This covers as many cycles of indoor and/or outdoor grown cannabis as a person can produce as long as each grow was no more than 25 square feet and done in succession.
Clearly section 11300(a) (i) limits personal possession and consumption to one ounce OUT OF YOUR HOME while section11300(a) (iii) is what you are allowed to have AT YOUR RESIDENCE if that is where your 25 sq. ft. garden is located. That this is the case is established by another rule of statutory construction, i.e. the specific controls the general. Here (iii) is the specific statute with respect to what you can have AT YOUR RESIDENCE ONLY or in the words of subdivision (iii) "on the premises where grown".
The one ounce limitation only applies when you leave your house, not wherever it is you grow your 25 foot plot. I can picture being able to easily defend a person with 200 pounds who is not even medical.
Under Prop. 19 you can only travel with one ounce, but if you are a patient you can still enjoy the protections of the CUA and MMP and can safely travel with eight ounces, or whatever your doctor permits you to have or the needs of your collective, as allowed by the CUA and the MMP. YOUR SUPPLY PROBLEMS CAUSED BY PARANOID CULTIVATION LAWS AND POLICIES THAT AT TIMES LIMIT YOUR PERSONAL CULTIVATION PROJECTS ARE SOLVED BY PROP. 19.
Prop. 19 creates a marijuana sanctuary IN YOUR HOME ONLY. Prop. 19 allows you to have AT YOUR HOME ONLY ALL OF THE PROCEEDS of every successive 25 sq. foot plot. However, Prop 19 only allows you TO REMOVE IT FROM YOUR HOME one ounce at a time if you are a recreational user.
For patients this is not the case because Prop. 19 exempts them from the one ounce out of home restriction. As stated above, if you are a patient then you can take out of your house up to eight ounces, or whatever your doctor permits you to have or the needs of your collective.
Both medical patients and recreational users should note that Section 11300(a) (i) allows you to "share" up to an ounce which tells me that you can furnish as many one ounces to as many friends as you wish, thus if you have a party with 50 people you could give away 50 ounces.
UNDERSTANDING “NOTWITHSTANDING”
As for the argument that the various “Notwithstanding” clauses invalidate the CUA and MMP, I reiterate, that in section 2C (1) where Prop. 19 expressly states which statues are being altered, the CUA and MMP are not listed. Therefore, when you use the word “notwithstanding,” you cannot be referring to statues that have been expressly excluded.
Claiming there is some doubt as to what “notwithstanding” means or refers to requires at most that we reach back to the purpose of the legislation in order to give it proper meaning. Whatever interpretation you give it, “notwithstanding” cannot be in conflict with Sections 2 B (7 & which exempt patients covered under the CUA and MMP from any actions taken by municipalities to regulate the non-medical use of cannabis.
The word “notwithstanding” is used when reversing prior legislation and has traditionally been interpreted by prior case law to be a word employed for the purpose of allowing conduct that had previously been forbidden by other statutes. If the word “notwithstanding” was not used in Prop. 19, municipalities would be able to claim that there is still a prohibition on their participation in the licensing and regulating of this activity.
For example, a law making skipping in front of a school illegal would be overturned by a law which says “notwithstanding other laws, skipping is legal.” If the word “notwithstanding” was not there, then skipping in front of a school would still be illegal even though skipping itself would be legal at any other location.ddddd
The rationale behind this rule emanates or comes from another rule of statutory construction which is that existing laws cannot be repealed by inference and instead must be EXPRESSLY repealed. A court cannot find that a law, such as the CUA or MMP, was changed by "implication." In other words, it cannot repeal a law by ruling that another law implied that it should.
Although Sections 2B (7 & gives cities control over the non-medical distribution of cannabis, that in no way allows a court to repeal or even change the CUA and MMP by ruling that it was “implicit” in Prop. 19 that they do so. It is contrary to any rational understanding of statutory construction to infer that since Prop. 19 gives cities control over the distribution of non-medical marijuana, that it also gives cities the right to control the medical distribution of cannabis beyond what the CUA and MMP allows.
The word “notwithstanding” is simply a legal necessity to repeal the various statutes that prohibit the conduct that prop. 19 now permits.
So can everyone please VOTE YES ON 19.
Sincerely,
J. David Nick
Attorney-at-Law
There you have it in plain simple English – patients have everything to gain and nothing to lose with the passage of Prop. 19 You can believe who you want, but ask yourself, who would you want defending you in court? J. David Nick or your choice of any or all of the authors of the anti-19 screeds?
Get real people. Do you really think the Marijuana Policy Project, National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, Drug Policy Alliance, Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and Law Enforcement Against Prohibition would stand idly by, let alone support, an initiative that will undo the millions of dollars and the thousands of hours of staff time they have invested in establishing, protecting and defending the medical marijuana laws that many of themt helped put on the books in the first place?
Americans for Safe Access has chosen to stay neutral on the issue because they see themselves as strictly a medical marijuana organization and Prop. 19 is about the recreational use of marijuana, not medical. Do you think ASA would take a neutral position on Prop. 19 if they thought it would undermine Prop. 215?
The only people who will profit from the undermining of Prop. 19 are narco-cops, bail bondsmen, prison guards, Mexican drug cartels, greedy growers, profit-making collectives and old dogs that can’t learn a new trick.
Those medical marijuana advocates who have chosen to dedicate their existence to defeating Prop. 19, could actually do something of benefit for the medical marijuana community if they would expend their negative energy defeating Steve Cooley, the Republican candidate for California Attorney General.
Unlike Prop. 19, this man is a real threat to medical marijuana patients. As the District Attorney for Los Angeles, he has claimed collectives have no right to sell marijuana and that collectives must be small groups where everybody gets their hands in the soil. He has spent literally millions of taxpayer dollars pursuing medical marijuana patients and providers and if elected Attorney General will probably rescind AG Jerry Brown’s guidelines thereby making every collective in California that operates a storefront or delivery service illegal.
Unfortunately, the money is on him to win the AG race and if he is elected, you better hope Prop. 19 passes so he will be so busy trying to undo 19 that he won’t have time to screw patients.
Don’t just vote YES on 19, work with us to pass this historic initiative that will help, not hurt patients, bring compassion and common sense to marijuana law and deliver a decisive, maybe fatal blow to the war on drugs.
Lanny Swerdlow, RN, LNC
Guess what, I found NOTHING that clearly states that MMJ patients are exempt from the 25 square foot rule.
Our doctors don't and shouldn't specify the area needed to grow an adequate amount of medicine.
The vague language will make trial lawyers a lot of money if passed.
Every knowledgeable person weighing in on this seems to have a blind spot regarding area of cultivation.
I don't want some cop telling my HOW to grow my weed(at the very least).
Propositions like this are usually given a lot of thought concerning consequences. I believe the 25 sq. ft. rule is intended to aid the big boys to the detriment of MMJ patients.
The text.
*************************************************************************************
Blog
About Prop 19 - To Medical Marijuana Patients
by Evan Nison [contact]
Fri, Sep 10, 2010 12:28 am
more: medical marijuana, proposition 19, blog
Share | http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&winname=addthis&pub=cjcoffey&source=tbx-250&lng=en-US&s=facebook&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhightimes.com%2Fblog%2Fevan%2F6681%3Futm_source%3Drss_home&title=HIGHTIMES.COM%20%3E%20About%20Prop%2019%20-%20To%20Medical%20Marijuana%20Patients&ate=AT-cjcoffey/-/pz-3/4c8d564a4d73a4df/1&sms_ss=1&CXNID=2000001.5215456080540439074NXC&pre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollitup.org%2Flegalization-marijuana%2F363762-why-im-voting-no-prop-14.html&tt=0 http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&winname=addthis&pub=cjcoffey&source=tbx-250&lng=en-US&s=myspace&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhightimes.com%2Fblog%2Fevan%2F6681%3Futm_source%3Drss_home&title=HIGHTIMES.COM%20%3E%20About%20Prop%2019%20-%20To%20Medical%20Marijuana%20Patients&ate=AT-cjcoffey/-/pz-3/4c8d564a4d73a4df/2&sms_ss=1&CXNID=2000001.5215456080540439074NXC&pre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollitup.org%2Flegalization-marijuana%2F363762-why-im-voting-no-prop-14.html&tt=0 http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&winname=addthis&pub=cjcoffey&source=tbx-250&lng=en-US&s=google&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhightimes.com%2Fblog%2Fevan%2F6681%3Futm_source%3Drss_home&title=HIGHTIMES.COM%20%3E%20About%20Prop%2019%20-%20To%20Medical%20Marijuana%20Patients&ate=AT-cjcoffey/-/pz-3/4c8d564a4d73a4df/3&sms_ss=1&CXNID=2000001.5215456080540439074NXC&pre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollitup.org%2Flegalization-marijuana%2F363762-why-im-voting-no-prop-14.html&tt=0
Below is an open leter I received from a Prop 19 supporter. It's long but certainly worth the read:
For my support of Prop. 19, I have been subject to the scorn, approbation and the most demoralizing denunciations imaginable by a group of medical marijuana patients exhibiting what can only be termed “medical reefer madness.”
With the best of intentions based on a poorly researched legal analysis, these anti-19 folks have joined forces with the people whose indifference and outright hostility have resulted in, and continue to result in, the arrest, prosecution and imprisonment of thousands of medical marijuana patients.
Their never-ending harangues that Prop. 215 will go into the trash can of history if Prop. 19 is passed is causing medical marijuana patients extreme anxiety and leading them to question their support of this historic and critical piece of reform legislation. Graphically describing the horrors that will descend like a plague of locusts on unsuspecting medical marijuana patients if Prop. 19 passes, the anti-19 cabal insinuates that we are being duped by unscrupulous and untrustworthy people like Chris Conrad, Judge Jim Gray, Dale Gerringer, Dr. Frank Lucido, State Senator Mark Leno, Assemblymember Tom Ammiano, Jeff Jones, Mark Emery and hundreds of others. To see a list of all their claimed enemies of medical marijuana patients, go to: www.taxcannabis2010.org/node/13
To reveal the fallacy of their arguments and to stop stressing patients, I asked my friend, and frankly the friend of every medical marijuana patient in the state of California, J. David Nick, to weigh in on the controversy.
For 18 years, David Nick has successfully litigated a cornucopia of issues regarding cannabis and the applicable laws in both trial and appellate courts. He has not confined his practice to marijuana law, but also litigates cases involving constitutional rights and criminal procedure.
David Nick has never lost a jury trial in a state marijuana case including many precedent setting trials involving some of the most revered figures in the medical marijuana movement such as Brownie Mary, Dennis Peron (Nick has been Peron’s sole attorney since 1994) and Steve Kubby.
One of Nick’s early defenses of Peron’s medical marijuana activism resulted in the first appellate court decision affirming that marijuana can be sold. Kubby’s case was the first large quantity (200 plants) case to be won on the argument that Kubby’s serious ailments necessitated his use of cannabis to keep him alive.
A recent case of interest to patients is the Strauss case, involving a farm in Mendocino County that cultivated marijuana exclusively for a collective in Los Angeles. Nick succeeded in getting a hung jury followed by outright dismissal of all charges involving 250 pounds of processed marijuana, 200 large marijuana plants and $1.5 million in several bank accounts - not exactly consistent with the idea of small collectives with everybody planting, harvesting, trimming and singing Kumbaya.
He is currently representing collectives in Palm Springs, Riverside and Los Angeles in preemptive lawsuits asserting the rights of collectives to provide medicine to their members without undue interference from local government officials.
Nick does not confine his practice to marijuana law, but is involved in significant federal criminal litigation.
His litigation has established the right not to be searched by sniffing dogs without probable cause. This is in contract to car searches where police can search you car for no reason at all.
His litigation has lead to policies requiring police to not draw weapons in a marijuana search unless they have information that the person being apprehended is dangerous.
He has successfully litigated jury trials utilizing a necessity for life defense in order to uphold the operation of needle exchange programs.
As far as I am concerned, these experiences qualify him to provide an opinion about Prop. 19 superior to those I have read from the “sky-is-falling” alarmists
Here is Mr. Nick’s analysis of the effects of Prop. 19 on medical marijuana patients. I will have a few more choice words for you to peruse at the conclusion of Mr. Nick’s thoughtful, rational, reasoned, and accurate analysis.
PROP. 19 IS THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MMJ PATIENTS SINCE PROP. 215
Anyone who claims that Proposition 19 will restrict or eliminate rights under the Compassionate Use Act (CUA) or the Medical Marijuana Program (MMP) is simply wrong. If anything, Proposition 19 will permit individuals to grow and possess much more than ever before with patients, coops and collectives still receiving the same protections they are entitled to under the CUA and MMP.
Here is why.
The legal arguments claiming the "sky will fall" if Prop. 19 passes are based on the fallacious conclusion that the Initiative invalidates the CUA and MMP. This baseless fear stems from a flawed legal analysis which focuses on just about every portion of Prop. 19 EXCEPT the relevant portions. This flawed legal analysis is driven by an incorrect understanding of the rules of statutory construction.
Although extrinsic materials (such as legislative committee memos or voter pamphlet arguments) may not be resorted to when the legislative language is clear, courts may never ignore the purpose of the legislation. Every interpretation a court gives a statute must be consistent with the purpose of the legislation. This is why statutes have long "preambles" which explicitly state the purposes of the legislation.
This rule is so controlling that a court is required to ignore the literal language of a legislative statute if it conflicts with the purpose of the legislation. By example I call attention to the appellate court case of Bell v. DMV. In this precedent setting case, the court ruled that a statute must be interpreted to apply to civil proceedings even though the statute they were interpreting stated it applied only to "criminal" proceedings. The court’s interpretation of the statute was consistent with the purposes of the legislation and the limitation to criminal cases in the statute itself was not.
PROP. 19 PROVIDES ADDITIONAL PROTECTIONS TO PATIENTS FROM THE ACTIONS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
Section 2B presents the controlling and relevant purposes for understanding what Prop. 19 can and cannot do. This section EXPRESSLY excludes the reach of Prop. 19 from the CUA and MMP. Sections 2B (7 &
specifically state that the purpose of this initiative is to give municipalities total and complete control over the commercial sales of marijuana "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.”Prop. 19 makes it perfectly clear that the Initiative does NOT give municipalities any control over how medical marijuana patients obtain their medicine or how much they can possess and cultivate as the purpose of the legislation was to exempt the CUA and the MMP from local government reach. Whatever control municipalities have over patients and collectives is limited by the CUA and the MMP, not by Prop. 19.
To further reduce everyone’s understandable anxiety over allowing municipalities to unduly control collectives, I direct everyone’s attention to the last statute of the MMP, 11362.83, which reads. “Nothing in this article shall prevent a city or other local governing body from adopting and enforcing laws CONSISTENT with this article.”
Since collectives are expressly allowed, local ordinances banning them are not consistent with the MMP. Health and Safety Code Section 11362.83, which limits municipalities ability to ban coops or overly restrict them, is unaffected by Prop. 19 as it expressly states in Sections 2B (7 &
that the laws created by Prop. 19 must be followed "EXCEPT as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.”PROP. 19 PROTECTS PATIENTS PERSONAL AND COLLECTIVE CULTIVATIONS
Further protecting patients from local law enforcement actions, Section 11303 states that ”no state or local law enforcement agency or official shall attempt to, threaten to, or in fact SEIZE or destroy any cannabis plant, cannabis seeds or cannabis that is LAWFULLY CULTIVATED.” If you are a patient, you may “lawfully cultivate” as much marijuana as medically necessary and Prop. 19 protects that right. If you are cultivating for a collective, you may “lawfully cultivate” as much marijuana as your collective allows you to and Prop. 19 protects that right. Unfortunately, many law enforcement officials refuse to recognize the rights provided under the MMP for collectives to “lawfully cultivate” and sell marijuana. Prop. 19 reinforces those rights and makes it even more difficult for law enforcement to bust a collective or collective grower.
IT WILL KEEP POLICE FROM COOPERATING WITH THE FEDS
As you can see from the above paragraph, the statutory scheme Prop. 19 creates expressly forbids law enforcement from seizing lawfully cultivated cannabis.
Prop. 19 will create an insurmountable barrier for local law enforcement which is still bent on depriving you of your rights through the despicable device of using federal law enforcement officers.
Here’s why.
Federal drug enforcement is nearly 100 percent dependent on the ability to use local law enforcement. They do not have the manpower to operate without it. Prop. 19 in no uncertain terms tells local law enforcement that they cannot even “attempt to” seize cannabis. If Prop. 19 passes, California will actually have a law on the books that expressly forbids local police from cooperating with the feds in the seizure of any “lawfully cultivated” California cannabis.
PROP. 19 DOES NOT LIMIT PATIENTS RIGHTS UNDER THE CUA & MMP
The nail in the coffin for those arguing against Prop. 19 is found in Section 2C (1). This is the only section which discusses which other laws the acts is "intended to limit" and nowhere in this section is the CUA or the MMP listed. If the purpose of Prop. 19 was "to limit" the application and enforcement of the CUA and MMP, those laws would have been listed along with all the other laws that are listed in Section 2C (1). Since the CUA and MMP were not listed, then Prop. 19 does not "limit" the CUA and MMP.
It’s that simple.
PROP. 19 MAKES IT EASIER FOR PATIENTS TO OBTAIN THEIR MEDICINE
Section 2B (6) states that one of the purposes of Prop. 19 is to “Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.” This section is one of the many reasons Prop. 19 is very good for patients. If Prop. 19 passes, the days of having to go through the hassle of getting a doctor’s recommendation to treat simple medical conditions will be coming to an end in those communities which allow Prop. 19 “stores" to exist. When you need an aspirin you do not have to go to a doctor and then to the health department and then to Walgreens - YOU JUST GO TO WALGREENS (the founder of which, Mr. Walgreen, became rich during prohibition by selling "medical" alcohol to patients who had obtained a prescription for alcohol from their doctor).
In those communities which are stubborn and will not allow Prop 19 "stores," patients will still have the protections of the CUA and MMP and the statutory right to form coops and collectives. Prop. 19 specifically recognizes that these rights are not invalidated and does nothing to limit the ability of patients to cultivate or form collectives or coops.
PROP. 19 ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE A LOT OF MARIJUANA
As an attorney called upon to defend patients and non-patients in marijuana cases, I cannot tell you how beneficial and how much freedom Section 11300 subdivision A (3) of Prop.19 will be to cannabis users. Read it!
Section 11300: Personal Regulation and Controls
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is lawful and shall not be a public offense under California law for any person 21 years of age or older to:
(i) Personally possess, process, share, or transport not more than one ounce of cannabis, solely for that individual’s personal consumption, and not for sale.
(iii) Possess on the premises where grown the living and harvested plants and results of ANY harvest and processing of plants lawfully cultivated pursuant to section 11300(a)(ii), for personal consumption.
Section (i) limits possession to one ounce OUT OF YOUR HOUSE. Section (iii) permits people 21 and over to have within their residence or single parcel ALL the cannabis which one grew in their 25 sq. foot parcel, including what you grew this year, what you grew last year and EVERY SINGLE 25 SQ. FT. HARVEST YOU EVER HAD ON THAT SINGLE PARCEL. This covers as many cycles of indoor and/or outdoor grown cannabis as a person can produce as long as each grow was no more than 25 square feet and done in succession.
Clearly section 11300(a) (i) limits personal possession and consumption to one ounce OUT OF YOUR HOME while section11300(a) (iii) is what you are allowed to have AT YOUR RESIDENCE if that is where your 25 sq. ft. garden is located. That this is the case is established by another rule of statutory construction, i.e. the specific controls the general. Here (iii) is the specific statute with respect to what you can have AT YOUR RESIDENCE ONLY or in the words of subdivision (iii) "on the premises where grown".
The one ounce limitation only applies when you leave your house, not wherever it is you grow your 25 foot plot. I can picture being able to easily defend a person with 200 pounds who is not even medical.
Under Prop. 19 you can only travel with one ounce, but if you are a patient you can still enjoy the protections of the CUA and MMP and can safely travel with eight ounces, or whatever your doctor permits you to have or the needs of your collective, as allowed by the CUA and the MMP. YOUR SUPPLY PROBLEMS CAUSED BY PARANOID CULTIVATION LAWS AND POLICIES THAT AT TIMES LIMIT YOUR PERSONAL CULTIVATION PROJECTS ARE SOLVED BY PROP. 19.
Prop. 19 creates a marijuana sanctuary IN YOUR HOME ONLY. Prop. 19 allows you to have AT YOUR HOME ONLY ALL OF THE PROCEEDS of every successive 25 sq. foot plot. However, Prop 19 only allows you TO REMOVE IT FROM YOUR HOME one ounce at a time if you are a recreational user.
For patients this is not the case because Prop. 19 exempts them from the one ounce out of home restriction. As stated above, if you are a patient then you can take out of your house up to eight ounces, or whatever your doctor permits you to have or the needs of your collective.
Both medical patients and recreational users should note that Section 11300(a) (i) allows you to "share" up to an ounce which tells me that you can furnish as many one ounces to as many friends as you wish, thus if you have a party with 50 people you could give away 50 ounces.
UNDERSTANDING “NOTWITHSTANDING”
As for the argument that the various “Notwithstanding” clauses invalidate the CUA and MMP, I reiterate, that in section 2C (1) where Prop. 19 expressly states which statues are being altered, the CUA and MMP are not listed. Therefore, when you use the word “notwithstanding,” you cannot be referring to statues that have been expressly excluded.
Claiming there is some doubt as to what “notwithstanding” means or refers to requires at most that we reach back to the purpose of the legislation in order to give it proper meaning. Whatever interpretation you give it, “notwithstanding” cannot be in conflict with Sections 2 B (7 &
which exempt patients covered under the CUA and MMP from any actions taken by municipalities to regulate the non-medical use of cannabis.The word “notwithstanding” is used when reversing prior legislation and has traditionally been interpreted by prior case law to be a word employed for the purpose of allowing conduct that had previously been forbidden by other statutes. If the word “notwithstanding” was not used in Prop. 19, municipalities would be able to claim that there is still a prohibition on their participation in the licensing and regulating of this activity.
For example, a law making skipping in front of a school illegal would be overturned by a law which says “notwithstanding other laws, skipping is legal.” If the word “notwithstanding” was not there, then skipping in front of a school would still be illegal even though skipping itself would be legal at any other location.ddddd
The rationale behind this rule emanates or comes from another rule of statutory construction which is that existing laws cannot be repealed by inference and instead must be EXPRESSLY repealed. A court cannot find that a law, such as the CUA or MMP, was changed by "implication." In other words, it cannot repeal a law by ruling that another law implied that it should.
Although Sections 2B (7 &
gives cities control over the non-medical distribution of cannabis, that in no way allows a court to repeal or even change the CUA and MMP by ruling that it was “implicit” in Prop. 19 that they do so. It is contrary to any rational understanding of statutory construction to infer that since Prop. 19 gives cities control over the distribution of non-medical marijuana, that it also gives cities the right to control the medical distribution of cannabis beyond what the CUA and MMP allows.The word “notwithstanding” is simply a legal necessity to repeal the various statutes that prohibit the conduct that prop. 19 now permits.
So can everyone please VOTE YES ON 19.
Sincerely,
J. David Nick
Attorney-at-Law
There you have it in plain simple English – patients have everything to gain and nothing to lose with the passage of Prop. 19 You can believe who you want, but ask yourself, who would you want defending you in court? J. David Nick or your choice of any or all of the authors of the anti-19 screeds?
Get real people. Do you really think the Marijuana Policy Project, National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, Drug Policy Alliance, Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and Law Enforcement Against Prohibition would stand idly by, let alone support, an initiative that will undo the millions of dollars and the thousands of hours of staff time they have invested in establishing, protecting and defending the medical marijuana laws that many of themt helped put on the books in the first place?
Americans for Safe Access has chosen to stay neutral on the issue because they see themselves as strictly a medical marijuana organization and Prop. 19 is about the recreational use of marijuana, not medical. Do you think ASA would take a neutral position on Prop. 19 if they thought it would undermine Prop. 215?
The only people who will profit from the undermining of Prop. 19 are narco-cops, bail bondsmen, prison guards, Mexican drug cartels, greedy growers, profit-making collectives and old dogs that can’t learn a new trick.
Those medical marijuana advocates who have chosen to dedicate their existence to defeating Prop. 19, could actually do something of benefit for the medical marijuana community if they would expend their negative energy defeating Steve Cooley, the Republican candidate for California Attorney General.
Unlike Prop. 19, this man is a real threat to medical marijuana patients. As the District Attorney for Los Angeles, he has claimed collectives have no right to sell marijuana and that collectives must be small groups where everybody gets their hands in the soil. He has spent literally millions of taxpayer dollars pursuing medical marijuana patients and providers and if elected Attorney General will probably rescind AG Jerry Brown’s guidelines thereby making every collective in California that operates a storefront or delivery service illegal.
Unfortunately, the money is on him to win the AG race and if he is elected, you better hope Prop. 19 passes so he will be so busy trying to undo 19 that he won’t have time to screw patients.
Don’t just vote YES on 19, work with us to pass this historic initiative that will help, not hurt patients, bring compassion and common sense to marijuana law and deliver a decisive, maybe fatal blow to the war on drugs.
Lanny Swerdlow, RN, LNC
windytodai
Active Member
What are they thinking of proposing a poorly written, obviously a hurtful proposition to Californians? Why can't it be as simple as anyone over 18 can smoke it? I mean no one really starts smoking MJ until their college days anyways, right?
Dan Kone
Well-Known Member
Actually there is, but it's been struck down because the California supreme court said it's on constitutional to limit access to medical patients based on a vote.
Why would prop 19 supersede not only medical law, but also a California state supreme court decision? I'd like you to show me of any example of that happening ever. The closest thing to that happening I've ever seen is prop 8. How's prop 8 working out?
The state supreme court has already ruled on this. Prop 19 doesn't limit medical grows, but even if it did, it wouldn't be legal. It's a non-issue.
I have a business plan for it prop 19 passes or fails. Either way I'm good. Prop 19 will potentially allow me to make more or less money. I'm still not sure. But yes, I've planned financially for prop 19 to pass. Does planning ahead make me a bad person?
ok. Then you should easily be able to show me why prop 215, the AG's guidelines, a doctors recommendation, and a state supreme court decision will all be overturned based on a bill that is about recreational cannabis use. Please, be my guest.
veggiegardener
Well-Known Member
TOO MUCH WIGGLE ROOM! How many med patients had to defend themselves in court, even though they were completely in line with state law? LEOs and DAs need work! They'll destroy people to generate it.
You believe politicians are honest? Cops? Lawyers?
Until you post language that spells out consequences and fills the loop holes I mention, you're just a mercenary that doesn't give a damn about home growers.
I'm betting you either own, or intend to start a dispensary/pot store after November.
You are the enemy of the MMJ patient.
Patients are paying $400/oz now.
I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't soon go up, because many small growers are in jeopardy.
Dan Kone
Well-Known Member
Too much wiggle room? The California supreme court has already made the ruling. It's the law. The only thing that could be done is an appeal to the US supreme court. Since that wasn't done, it's not likely.
Quite a lot. But in this particular matter, the decision has already been made. It's a done deal.
And that is true with or without prop 19. We should continue with prohibition out of fear that if we end prohibition law enforcement might get mad and try to abuse the law? Not a strong argument.
No, but the law is the law. A supreme court case ruling is the law. That doesn't require honesty out of any politician, cop, or lawyer. It just is what it is.
That's because there is no loophole. A supreme court decision is the law period. What they say goes. You're looking for something that doesn't exist. Do you see doctors getting arrested for giving abortions? No. Why is that? Because the supreme court said it was legal.
Excuse me? Mercenary? WTF are you talking about? I am a home grower. If prop 19 is so bad then why are you attacking me personally instead of keeping the conversation about prop 19?
But if you want to go there, fine. I think you're an ignorant paranoid nut who is absolutely clueless to what prop 19 actually says or how the law works.
Correct. I'm in no way trying to hide that. Does that make me a bad person? Is every small business owner in America a bad person? Does providing jobs and medicine make me evil? Grow the fuck up man.
I apologize for providing affordable medicine to my community. I apologize for employing people. I apologizing for supporting California growers by buying their products.
The real enemy is ignorant fucks like you. What the fuck are you doing that is so noble that you feel you have the right to talk down to me?
I've never sold a $400 oz in my life. I've never sold a $60 8th in my life. I've never sold a $20 gram (except to drunk fratboys while I was in college).
stingmenot
Member
If 19 passes growing and smoking marijuana becomes legal for adults in california. All the paranoid conspiracy talk, all the legal nit-picking is a mask for profit fear. I don't care about your anger.
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