brownbearclan
Active Member
I think the wikileaks guy rules, I don't give a shit whose dirty laundry gets aired because the truth is the truth, and the truth is what sets us free. =)
Wikileaks
- Thread starter NoDrama
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Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
ROFL! I guess I get why they'd need that, but what kind of message does it send when they say "fuck Nuremburg"?
Seriously, imagine you're a soldier in a warzone, an order comes in to do something you consider questionable, do you go through with it? I think half would and half wouldn't, and they play on that knowing the majority are the ones who come out alive after having done it.
I remember my friend asking me in high school when I wanted to join the Air Force if I had to drop a bomb on a location that I knew would cause collateral damage and kill civilians but eliminate the target the commanders designated, would I do it? ... I said I would because it would be for the greater good. Looking back now, I see pretty clearly how messed up that position is... and more importantly, why.
doc111
Well-Known Member
I think you're being kind. More than half would likely obey an unlawful order although nothing is ever so simple. It would depend what the order was I suppose. Something just a little over the line and you get most if not all following the order. Something really terrible might evoke more resistance. Remember there are always those among us whose nature it is to be cruel. When cruelty becomes encouraged by a given state, nazi germany always comes to mind, there will be a huge number who find the cruelty justifiable. There will be those who will do it but disagree with it. There will be those who will abhor it and will abscond. Unfortunately these folks usually aren't treated well if/when captured.
assasinofyouth420
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Its not a soldiers job to debate politics.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
In a sense I agree with you - in that a military institution wouldn't work effectively if all the soldiers questioned everything - but I think it is a soldiers job to do the right thing, so if a commander gives an order the soldier believes is wrong, I think it's his obligation to refuse it. An example off the top of my head is that Reuters Apache footage a while back, and I'm sure other similar examples are rampant. Situations where identity is not 100% when the trigger is pulled, consequently killing innocent civilians. I see that order as questionable if I were a soldier.
Would you agree?
Good post Doc.
socaliboy
Well-Known Member
Well concidering Julian Assange isn't even American, makes me wonder how sincere his intentions really are, concidering his organization seems to always be targeting the USA and no other country.
I don't have any problem with someone trying to promote honesty, but where is the threshold. The latest cables leak (with more to come) could threaten/damage ties with overseas allies. Sensitive information is usually exactly that, sensitive for a reason, concidering I can't seem to find anything really damning against the Good' ol USA in these leaks, I fail to see the reason behind the leaks in the first place. Seems as though it is putting inocent lives at risk for an askewed reason, maybe shit stirring?
By the way, I noticed Dagastani Weddings are not to be missed.
I don't have any problem with someone trying to promote honesty, but where is the threshold. The latest cables leak (with more to come) could threaten/damage ties with overseas allies. Sensitive information is usually exactly that, sensitive for a reason, concidering I can't seem to find anything really damning against the Good' ol USA in these leaks, I fail to see the reason behind the leaks in the first place. Seems as though it is putting inocent lives at risk for an askewed reason, maybe shit stirring?
By the way, I noticed Dagastani Weddings are not to be missed.
Umm, firstly, wikileaks have released documents from loads of countries and organizations, and have won awards for their work in the past due to this. They haven't targeted the US exclusively, and targeting is the wrong word to use anyway. They simply publish documents that are leaked to them, regardless of the country involved. In this case the documents were leaked to them by a US serviceman who could see the corruption from within, and acted on his conscience.
Even if this wasn't the case, since the US claims so many allies, and has a hand in so much of the world's affairs, do you believe that only Americans should have the right to comment on the USG's "say one thing, do another" attitude, with regard to world affairs?
So you can't see anything damning in the leaks, but you accept that they could damage ties with allies? How is this possible? As for the reason behind the leaks, here's a section from wikipedia that sums it up:socaliboy said:
For me, both Manning and Assangs's motives are crystal clear. That is because I have done my own research, rather than simply echoing the views of certain media outlets. Their response in this is just as telling as the USG response, and shows just how bad things have become.
Most of the points that you have mentioned have already been addressed in this very thread, including the "lives put at risk" stuff.
Viagro
Well-Known Member
Yeah well the Founding Fathers established this Country, and wrote the Constitution...in defiance of authority.
Not the military.
And Thomas Jefferson said it was everyone's duty to question authority, and to challenge it when necessary.
http://www.disinfo.com/2010/12/taxpayer-funded-contractor-throws-child-rape-parties-in-afghanistan-wikileaks-reveals/
no wonder wikileaks is being labeled as 'cyber-terrorists'.....
Goose42
Member
The debate here is a little different than right and wrong. As an american (which I am) you have to realize that we are often lied to by our own government in order to sustain the cushy lifestyles that we do. Anyone who has done some traveling can attest to the fact that the worst parts of america are 5 star hotels compared to some places in Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. So here is the real issue; lie to rest of the world to maintain our lifestyle? I say absolutely. Fuck Europe, if they dont like that we classify information, they can give back all of our aid money, and declassify all of their own info.
I spent some time in the military, and still have a ton of friends and family who are in. I would rather have the EU (and Canada i guess?) "still" mad at us then disclose supply and logistics info, troop locations, diplomatic conveyances. America is the big bully, thats part of being the boss. I am not saying it is right by any means, and as a Marine who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan I can say with some certainty that they are useless conflicts that just further our defense-industrial complex. However, an American life is worth more to me than anything, especially international posturing, and anyone who does anything to put that in jeopardy is an enemy. Im sure you guys will flame the hell out of this post, so I will leave you with this:
your little brother is in a tent in Afghanistan right now, hiding from a decent amount of people with machine guns who want to end his life every second of every day. 1/3rd of your tax dollars pay to keep him safe and away from them. Now someone completely removed the conflict has drawn the enemy a map straight to your little brother, and threatens to release it unless....? Is this man a hero or a demon
I spent some time in the military, and still have a ton of friends and family who are in. I would rather have the EU (and Canada i guess?) "still" mad at us then disclose supply and logistics info, troop locations, diplomatic conveyances. America is the big bully, thats part of being the boss. I am not saying it is right by any means, and as a Marine who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan I can say with some certainty that they are useless conflicts that just further our defense-industrial complex. However, an American life is worth more to me than anything, especially international posturing, and anyone who does anything to put that in jeopardy is an enemy. Im sure you guys will flame the hell out of this post, so I will leave you with this:
your little brother is in a tent in Afghanistan right now, hiding from a decent amount of people with machine guns who want to end his life every second of every day. 1/3rd of your tax dollars pay to keep him safe and away from them. Now someone completely removed the conflict has drawn the enemy a map straight to your little brother, and threatens to release it unless....? Is this man a hero or a demon
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
You seem to hold and admit two different positions. You admit that being a bully is wrong, yet you imply protecting the lives of "American" bulllies is somehow noble?
If your little brother is in harms way, of course you are concerned, that makes you human. Let's hope he makes it home alive. The justification of WHY he's there is another matter though. My advise, tell him to put down his gun and realize being the bully cannot be made noble, no matter how many shiny metals they give him.
Tell him that a brave person will embrace the truth, not propaganda. Tell him that killing people in the name of "freedom" rings hollow when he learns that he and many others are being sold a crock of nationalistic bullshit. The cloak of patriotism has been used as a tool to get guys like your little brother to kill innocent people since the beginning of nation states.
Ponder these questions, is your little brother a hero when he blindly follows orders to kill people in a foreign land? Is a man that wants to advance freedom and foster truth by exposing government lies a demon?
He's a hero. The demons are the ones who put your brother in that tent in the first place.
As for the rest of your post where you advocate lying to the world to maintain your comfy lifestyle, the problem is that you aren't just lying, you are slaughtering people, in vast numbers. That kind of stuff tends to be noticed, and leads to things like people flying planes into buildings or picking up machine guns to kill little brothers in tents, amongst other things.
Goose42
Member
Im glad you both gave actual responses. Thanks for not being assholes, I apologize for getting high and ranting. but...
My brother and I are both heroes for serving in the military. Regardless of who you consider "innocent civilians" I never killed anyone, and to my knowledge neither has he. The military is the only option to some people who cant afford to go get an education in this country, the same as for the people we fight in the middle east. Just because I served doesn't make me George Bush. Wiki leaks is bad for the US, and bad for my family. Im sticking to my guns.
Muslims and Christians have been killing eachother in the middle east for thousands of years. The fact the Christians are coming from America this millennium doesn't tilt the scales of justice. My initial point is that Assange and Wikileaks are counter productive to anyones cause but their own.
My brother and I are both heroes for serving in the military. Regardless of who you consider "innocent civilians" I never killed anyone, and to my knowledge neither has he. The military is the only option to some people who cant afford to go get an education in this country, the same as for the people we fight in the middle east. Just because I served doesn't make me George Bush. Wiki leaks is bad for the US, and bad for my family. Im sticking to my guns.
Chad Sexington
Active Member
I also served in the military, on a few tours overseas, and to think that the information that is leaked is somehow going to put someone in extra danger is complete balogny. Your brother is sitting in that tent, the eyes are already on him, and the guys with machine guns and mortars already know his position, they know everytime he leaves the FOB, and where he is heading. They do that through a vast system of spotters and communications, not through Wikileaks. When I was there, it was before Wikileaks was even around, and believe me, they knew when we left our legers and FOBs. Assange and Wikileaks are only counter productive to people who have things to hide, if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to be scared of (sorry for the Fox News paraphrase). But all and all, putting soldiers lives in danger? Give me a break.
I would have figured for a Devil Dog such as yourself you would know that Little Brother has the most bad ass, well equipped, best trained mutha fuckin force to ever tread upon God's green earth right behind him. Little brother isn't the one who is scared, its all the poor innocent people of that nation who are just trying to live they way they have for a thousand years who are shaking and cowering in fear.
What do they teach you in the Fleet now a days, how to hide in a tent and be scared? You were in the Fuckin Marines son, there is no time for fear, only time for action!! Only Cowards hide from responsibility.
canuckgrow
Well-Known Member
If someone can give absolute proof that the information obtained and released by Wikileaks in any way shape or form puts soldiers or the general public at risk I'll change my opinion. But they can't because it doesn't. The world governments are evil entities that do and say anything to advance their agenda. Looking back on history is what Paul Revere did in 1775 really that much differant than what Assange is trying to do? Warning us of the evil shit our government is doing. For Mr Revere and friends it was warning everyone that the British were on the move towards Lexington to arrest the patriots and recover their weapons cache. Part of me thinks the whole thing is a setup to further allow governments to keep wraps on the shit they don't want us to know.
Che Paddy
Well-Known Member
This thread is hilarious. The guy is a hero. Fair play to him shedding light on all the shady shit going on. It makes me laugh every time someone gives a reference to Our Enemies. Your Enemies? An idea put in Americans heads by Rupert Murdoch and other such scumbags who dictate what is fed to the masses on CNN, Sky news and other such bullshit. Its a one sided argument that is drilled into you.
Take that soldier that fucked up all those people with his Apache gunship. Im sure everyone has seen the clip. Well that never made CNN or SKY when it happened. But daily we hear about suicide bombers killing loads of people. After a while of course you start to believe they're enemies. I took my first trip to the US last February. When I arrived in the hotel I turned on the TV and couldn't believe how diluted your news is. In Europe its less one sided and definitely more graphic. Still bullshit and selective information.
And in fairness the main point of the whole lot is that if the US werent invading and starting wars on Terror or whatever smokescreen they want to use in order to make money then this thread wouldnt even exist.
At some stage in every coverup there needs to be a whistleblower and this guy happens to be one on a legendary status. I say keep up the good work,
(P.S I under stand im going to be verbally abused for the next page or two but I am intitaled to my opinion and as I understand a forum is a place to voice opinions. I have nothing against US citizens on an individual basis but more against the likes Members of the Bilderberg and Trialteral commission who use the US and wars in order to line their pockets)
Take that soldier that fucked up all those people with his Apache gunship. Im sure everyone has seen the clip. Well that never made CNN or SKY when it happened. But daily we hear about suicide bombers killing loads of people. After a while of course you start to believe they're enemies. I took my first trip to the US last February. When I arrived in the hotel I turned on the TV and couldn't believe how diluted your news is. In Europe its less one sided and definitely more graphic. Still bullshit and selective information.
And in fairness the main point of the whole lot is that if the US werent invading and starting wars on Terror or whatever smokescreen they want to use in order to make money then this thread wouldnt even exist.
At some stage in every coverup there needs to be a whistleblower and this guy happens to be one on a legendary status. I say keep up the good work,
(P.S I under stand im going to be verbally abused for the next page or two but I am intitaled to my opinion and as I understand a forum is a place to voice opinions. I have nothing against US citizens on an individual basis but more against the likes Members of the Bilderberg and Trialteral commission who use the US and wars in order to line their pockets)
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your being polite, but the term "hero" is a bit watered down these days. Potential cannon fodder is always sold the hero
kool aid. It's what got young Japanese guys to become Kamikazes. Works in any country since the beginning of time.
Please step off your pedestal for a moment and consider that your love of country etc. and your belief that people that are in the military are heroes is exactly what those who direct your actions want you to think, it's easier to manipulate "heroes" than independent thinkers.
Education ? There are many people that have attended expensive schools with fine degrees that remain uneducated. You can become educated in the truth, all it takes is an open mind and ability to sift the bullshit. Or are you one of those "heroes" who'll come home and get a "free education" and an associates degree in criminal justice so you can become the local police chief in Podunkville USA...is that your plan? Then you can continue to "serve your country" and arrest people, like um most of us in this forum eh? Is that the kind of "freedom" you want to protect?
Sticking to your guns ? Even when you admit that you would be a bully if those who stroke your ego and call you a hero demand you to kill innocent people? If Christians have been killing Muslims for years aren't they breaking one of the ten comandments? Or is god wearing a TEAM USA t-shirt and will sign off on the killing of THOSE people?
There are lots of families that get their "heroes" returned in flag draped coffins or see their families blown up in the streets by invading U.S. troops. When innocent civilians or soldiers from either side die, there are no heroes. Only dead people that didn't need to die. Wake up son. Your education here is free. Lesson one is now over.
ohnothimagin
Well-Known Member
The truth sometimes hurts.
I hope to hear more from Wikileaks
I hope to hear more from Wikileaks