lets see what reaction I get to this.....

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I’m probably missing something here but just checking: is in the US minimum wage not yearly adjusted to balance out inflation and keep buying power the same or better? Normally, or so I assumed elsewhere too, inflation => higher wages (including minimum).
The federal minimum wage in the US has not increased since 2009. At all. Not relative to inflation, in absolute terms.

.

The Fair Labor Standards Act has been amended several times since the original 1938 bill. The most recent change became effective July 24, 2009, increasing the federal minimum wage to $7.25. Despite numerous efforts, there have been no federal minimum wage increases since then.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen a good analysis from an unbiased source that shows a strong relationship between inflation and the minimum wage. Personally, I think the claim is a truthy one and not one that bears up to careful analysis but you are the one making the claim so I'd like you to provide more than a truthy-sounding sentence to back up your claims. @cannabineer too.

But the motivation as I see it for raising the minimum wage isn't about the minimum wage, its about the decline in real wages and income that the US has experienced over time.

View attachment 5353913


On several occasions, I have glibly referred to how it now takes two spouses working to equal the wages of a one-income family of 40 years ago. Unfortunately, that is now an understatement. In fact, Western wages have plummeted so low that a two-income family is now (on average) 15% poorer than a one-income family of 40 years ago.

The 1960's were a time when a blue collar single income household could raise a family and even manage to get a few through college. Minimum wage at that time was not what adult full time wage earners were paid, it was a bottom wage that mostly went to temporary and part time workers.

The author proposes something altogether different from raising the minimum wage to address the woeful economic state that hard working Americans are going through today. I don't know if I agree with him and I don't know if I can agree with a $30 minimum wage either. But I think its fair to say that we need to come up with a better plan than the one Reagan used when the working class's real wages began to decline. In part, the political instability the US is experiencing today is due to that decline. So there is a real and imminent threat that can be addressed by reversing the trend line shown in green in the figure above.

The extreme surge in inflation that we saw happen after 2021 was almost entirely due to skimming of profits made by the mismatch between rising prices and rising wages over the past few years. Prices shot up well past anything that could be justified by rises in cost that were only partly due to rises in wages. Go back and look at the record. Corporations posted record profits in 2022 and 2023, the stock market went up 25% in 2023. There is plenty of unearned income in that and maybe some forced wage increases along with price controls are justified. The word socialism to me isn't nearly as dirty as the word capitalism. Just saying, there is room for us to have a discussion.
Just look at the inflation that occurred by the dumping of money into the economy during covid.



A lot of sources other than my word dumping money into an economy causes inflation. When (for example) you now doubled your middle class by increasing the minimum wage to $30, you now have many more people thinking, "I would like a nice house." Obviously there will be more competition for the house, more competition usually causes the price to rise. Remember people paying over asking prices? Should not happen, the first person that offers the list price should get it. But that is not how it works. Rather we get a bidding war. Capitalism at its most raw, get the auctioneer out. So the prices of houses will move up to a new normal.

The big problem is where has all the money gone? Why can people not make ends meet? Part of the problem now is all the free money we had for so long, a couple percent. Now that interest rates have gone up, where is that money going to? Part is going to fund a lot of people's retirement. If all of a sudden there is a lot of money and we will get inflation (unless we magically increase the supply of everything), retirees see their purchasing power drop. That $10 lb steak (I have no idea, I do not buy steak) will go up to $15 lb, the people newly making $30 hr would probably want some also (I am guessing the only reason for increasing the minimum wage is so these people can buy things they could not buy before.) Might even find the person that saved much of his life find retirement not as rosy when the new 'rich' outcompete them.

The real problem is the billion and trillionaires, the money parked in offshore accounts, the addition of China into our economic system. We had years of inflating wages and prices, not a bad thing, this is one of the cornerstones of capitalism. But when you throw in a billion of people that will work for peanuts in their country and sell you products, they get richer and you poorer. At least the working stiff making your coffee.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
The federal minimum wage in the US has not increased since 2009. At all. Not relative to inflation, in absolute terms.

.

The Fair Labor Standards Act has been amended several times since the original 1938 bill. The most recent change became effective July 24, 2009, increasing the federal minimum wage to $7.25. Despite numerous efforts, there have been no federal minimum wage increases since then.
Not even last year? :shock: That’s perverse. I’m flabbergasted. That’s like rule #1. Else people yearly get effectively a pay decrease. tf?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Not even last year? :shock: That’s perverse. I’m flabbergasted. That’s like rule #1. Else people yearly get effectively a pay decrease. tf?
I would think the states could set their own minimum wage. Supply and demand I guess. If you do not demand higher wages in your state you are supplying your service industry with cheap labor.

2024 State Minimum Wage Rates
State2024 Minimum Wage (effective 1/1/24 except as noted)
Alabama***$7.25
Alaska$11.73
Arizona$14.35
Arkansas*$11.00
California$16.00
(Wage by city in California)
Colorado**$14.42
Connecticut$15.69
Delaware$13.25
Florida $12.00 $13.00 (effective September 30, 2024)
Georgia$7.25
Hawaii $14.00
Idaho* $7.25
Illinois$14.00
Indiana* $7.25
Iowa* $7.25
Kansas* $7.25
Kentucky* $7.25
Louisiana***$7.25
Maine$14.15
Maryland**$15.00
Massachusetts*$15.00
Michigan$10.33
Minnesota$10.85 (annual revenue of at least $500,000) $8.85 (annual revenue less than $500,000)
Mississippi***$7.25
Missouri$12.30
Montana$10.30
Nebraska$12.00
Nevada$11.25 for employees not offered qualifying health insurance.
$10.25 per hour for employees offered qualifying health insurance.
$12.00 (effective July 1, 2024)
New Hampshire* $7.25
New Jersey$15.13 for businesses with 6 or more employees
$13.73 – businesses with fewer than 6 and seasonal employees
New Mexico$12.00
New York**$16.00 per hour (New York City, Long Island and Westchester County)
$15.00 per hour (rest of the state)
North Carolina* $7.25
North Dakota*$7.25
Ohio$10.45
Oklahoma* $7.25
Oregon**$14.20 (effective through June 30, 2024)
Pennsylvania* $7.25
Rhode Island$14.00
South Carolina*** $7.25
South Dakota$11.20
Tennessee*** $7.25
Texas* $7.25
Utah* $7.25
Vermont$13.67
Virginia*$12.00
Washington$16.28
Washington D.C.*$17.00
West Virginia* $8.75
Wisconsin* $7.25
Wyoming $7.25
*No change from 2023 has been announced.

**Varies by geographical location within the state.

***State does not have local minimum wage regulations, and instead adheres to federal minimum wage laws.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Just look at the inflation that occurred by the dumping of money into the economy during covid.



A lot of sources other than my word dumping money into an economy causes inflation. When (for example) you now doubled your middle class by increasing the minimum wage to $30, you now have many more people thinking, "I would like a nice house." Obviously there will be more competition for the house, more competition usually causes the price to rise. Remember people paying over asking prices? Should not happen, the first person that offers the list price should get it. But that is not how it works. Rather we get a bidding war. Capitalism at its most raw, get the auctioneer out. So the prices of houses will move up to a new normal.

The big problem is where has all the money gone? Why can people not make ends meet? Part of the problem now is all the free money we had for so long, a couple percent. Now that interest rates have gone up, where is that money going to? Part is going to fund a lot of people's retirement. If all of a sudden there is a lot of money and we will get inflation (unless we magically increase the supply of everything), retirees see their purchasing power drop. That $10 lb steak (I have no idea, I do not buy steak) will go up to $15 lb, the people newly making $30 hr would probably want some also (I am guessing the only reason for increasing the minimum wage is so these people can buy things they could not buy before.) Might even find the person that saved much of his life find retirement not as rosy when the new 'rich' outcompete them.



The real problem is the billion and trillionaires, the money parked in offshore accounts, the addition of China into our economic system. We had years of inflating wages and prices, not a bad thing, this is one of the cornerstones of capitalism. But when you throw in a billion of people that will work for peanuts in their country and sell you products, they get richer and you poorer. At least the working stiff making your coffee.
So, the Covid bailout caused world wide inflation after the pandemic? The US has a massive economy but we still only account for 25% of the world's GDP. So, yes, one may be able to call up a chart that shows high inflation and concurrently, the US helping people stay afloat during the pandemic but as they say, correlation does not prove causation.

Which is my complaint about most of your post. It's just hyperbole, musings and truthy claims. There is nothing substantial in your post. In any case, my earlier post to you asked if you could back up this statement:

QUOTE="printer, post: 17476849, member: 1005813"]
Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, I haven't seen a good analysis from a reputable source that credibly ties inflation to rises in the minimum wage. It's clearly false from the US's experience. Inflation rates have gone up and down many times since the last time we raised the minimum wage -- in 2009.

I don't think you've made much of a case against a $30 minimum wage. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just asking you to do the kind of job explaining yourself that I've seen you do before. I'm not all that certain that sizeable increase in the minimum wage would be all that bad. Of course, we could do it in a stupid way but if we did it with good thought, analysis and policies, maybe it would do much to help get this country moving in a better direction. I'm open to the idea.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I would think the states could set their own minimum wage. Supply and demand I guess. If you do not demand higher wages in your state you are supplying your service industry with cheap labor.

2024 State Minimum Wage Rates
State2024 Minimum Wage (effective 1/1/24 except as noted)
Alabama***$7.25
Alaska$11.73
Arizona$14.35
Arkansas*$11.00
California$16.00
(Wage by city in California)
Colorado**$14.42
Connecticut$15.69
Delaware$13.25
Florida$12.00 $13.00 (effective September 30, 2024)
Georgia$7.25
Hawaii$14.00
Idaho*$7.25
Illinois$14.00
Indiana*$7.25
Iowa*$7.25
Kansas*$7.25
Kentucky*$7.25
Louisiana***$7.25
Maine$14.15
Maryland**$15.00
Massachusetts*$15.00
Michigan$10.33
Minnesota$10.85 (annual revenue of at least $500,000) $8.85 (annual revenue less than $500,000)
Mississippi***$7.25
Missouri$12.30
Montana$10.30
Nebraska$12.00
Nevada$11.25 for employees not offered qualifying health insurance.
$10.25 per hour for employees offered qualifying health insurance.
$12.00 (effective July 1, 2024)
New Hampshire*$7.25
New Jersey$15.13 for businesses with 6 or more employees
$13.73 – businesses with fewer than 6 and seasonal employees
New Mexico$12.00
New York**$16.00 per hour (New York City, Long Island and Westchester County)
$15.00 per hour (rest of the state)
North Carolina*$7.25
North Dakota*$7.25
Ohio$10.45
Oklahoma*$7.25
Oregon**$14.20 (effective through June 30, 2024)
Pennsylvania*$7.25
Rhode Island$14.00
South Carolina***$7.25
South Dakota$11.20
Tennessee***$7.25
Texas*$7.25
Utah*$7.25
Vermont$13.67
Virginia*$12.00
Washington$16.28
Washington D.C.*$17.00
West Virginia*$8.75
Wisconsin*$7.25
Wyoming$7.25
*No change from 2023 has been announced.



**Varies by geographical location within the state.

***State does not have local minimum wage regulations, and instead adheres to federal minimum wage laws.
none of the states have kept up with inflation. Poor people are poorer now than in 2009 and its getting worse.

So much for the idea that raising minimum wage causes higher inflation. Some right wing economist named Henry Sowell promoted that idea a couple of decades ago and the idea keeps circulating. Also he claimed it causes higher unemployment among low income people. Yeah, that one has been shot down too. But it keeps getting attention. It's all truthy bullshit.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
So, the Covid bailout caused world wide inflation after the pandemic? The US has a massive economy but we still only account for 25% of the world's GDP. So, yes, one may be able to call up a chart that shows high inflation and concurrently, the US helping people stay afloat during the pandemic but as they say, correlation does not prove causation.

Which is my complaint about most of your post. It's just hyperbole, musings and truthy claims. There is nothing substantial in your post. In any case, my earlier post to you asked if you could back up this statement:

QUOTE="printer, post: 17476849, member: 1005813"]
Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
As I said, I haven't seen a good analysis from a reputable source that credibly ties inflation to rises in the minimum wage. It's clearly false from the US's experience. Inflation rates have gone up and down many times since the last time we raised the minimum wage -- in 2009.

I don't think you've made much of a case against a $30 minimum wage. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just asking you to do the kind of job explaining yourself that I've seen you do before. I'm not all that certain that sizeable increase in the minimum wage would be all that bad. Of course, we could do it in a stupid way but if we did it with good thought, analysis and policies, maybe it would do much to help get this country moving in a better direction. I'm open to the idea.
[/QUOTE]
The phenomenon I’ve noticed is that prices climb with every little supply chain hiccup … then stay there ‘til the next hiccup. I suspect greedflation unprecedented since Teddy released the trust busters.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
So, the Covid bailout caused world wide inflation after the pandemic? The US has a massive economy but we still only account for 25% of the world's GDP. So, yes, one may be able to call up a chart that shows high inflation and concurrently, the US helping people stay afloat during the pandemic but as they say, correlation does not prove causation.

Which is my complaint about most of your post. It's just hyperbole, musings and truthy claims. There is nothing substantial in your post. In any case, my earlier post to you asked if you could back up this statement:

QUOTE="printer, post: 17476849, member: 1005813"]
Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
As I said, I haven't seen a good analysis from a reputable source that credibly ties inflation to rises in the minimum wage. It's clearly false from the US's experience. Inflation rates have gone up and down many times since the last time we raised the minimum wage -- in 2009.

I don't think you've made much of a case against a $30 minimum wage. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just asking you to do the kind of job explaining yourself that I've seen you do before. I'm not all that certain that sizeable increase in the minimum wage would be all that bad. Of course, we could do it in a stupid way but if we did it with good thought, analysis and policies, maybe it would do much to help get this country moving in a better direction. I'm open to the idea.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you not think all the other countries would dumped money onto their citizens also? When did inflation start to kick in, after people started to get back to normal. The money given out was to keep the economy/people going. But a lot of people did not spend the money when they were holed up at home (except the home renovation sector took off).



Canadian price index, or inflation graph. I did post two links to answer your question on wages and inflation, you could have picked through the bunch if you liked. I am running up against time constrains, no I can not post to the standards I guess I set for myself. Usually takes me up to 1-2 pm before I can shed my internet duties each day. Yes I put a lot of time in for you guys and the other forums I take part in. You will not find studies of minimum wage increasing inflation as politicians let the minimum wage lag as compared to inflation. I am not arguing that a jump in minimum wage causes inflation. If all of a sudden the population finds itself with much more money than it had before, do you not think prices will rise? That was what I was saying.

If you do not believe so, fine. But what would happen to the price of cars if the minimum wage earners all of a sudden make $30/hr?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
none of the states have kept up with inflation. Poor people are poorer now than in 2009 and its getting worse.

So much for the idea that raising minimum wage causes higher inflation. Some right wing economist named Henry Sowell promoted that idea a couple of decades ago and the idea keeps circulating. Also he claimed it causes higher unemployment among low income people. Yeah, that one has been shot down too. But it keeps getting attention. It's all truthy bullshit.
Again, A $30 increase in the minimum wage will cause inflation to rise as you will have more competition for the same things. I have not said the $0.65 raises in minimum wage the politicians "give" has caused inflation. Usually the amount of increase is less than the amount of inflation that has occurred since the last increase so they are always a little more behind. On my saying that past minimum wage increases causes inflation, I am not sure I actually said that.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
As I said, I haven't seen a good analysis from a reputable source that credibly ties inflation to rises in the minimum wage. It's clearly false from the US's experience. Inflation rates have gone up and down many times since the last time we raised the minimum wage -- in 2009.
I don't think you've made much of a case against a $30 minimum wage. I'm not advocating for it, I'm just asking you to do the kind of job explaining yourself that I've seen you do before. I'm not all that certain that sizeable increase in the minimum wage would be all that bad. Of course, we could do it in a stupid way but if we did it with good thought, analysis and policies, maybe it would do much to help get this country moving in a better direction. I'm open to the idea.
Why do you not think all the other countries would dumped money onto their citizens also? When did inflation start to kick in, after people started to get back to normal. The money given out was to keep the economy/people going. But a lot of people did not spend the money when they were holed up at home (except the home renovation sector took off).



Canadian price index, or inflation graph. I did post two links to answer your question on wages and inflation, you could have picked through the bunch if you liked. I am running up against time constrains, no I can not post to the standards I guess I set for myself. Usually takes me up to 1-2 pm before I can shed my internet duties each day. Yes I put a lot of time in for you guys and the other forums I take part in. You will not find studies of minimum wage increasing inflation as politicians let the minimum wage lag as compared to inflation. I am not arguing that a jump in minimum wage causes inflation. If all of a sudden the population finds itself with much more money than it had before, do you not think prices will rise? That was what I was saying.

If you do not believe so, fine. But what would happen to the price of cars if the minimum wage earners all of a sudden make $30/hr?
Since auto workers, distributors and sales personnel do not earn the minimum (first two unionized; last operate on a commission basis) the cost to the dealer should go up much less than proportionally.

Also, automakers are pretty quick to increase production to meet demand, some boutique models excepted.

So I expect no great change, as cars are not a limited commodity in the sense of gold or classified Bordeaux or beachfront property.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I’m aware min wage isn’t the same in every state. I’m also aware not everyone or even most work for minimum wage. For many making more than minimum it’s exactly that, a salary based on x above minimum. Setting one is a separate issue from indexing it to account for inflation every year. Not indexing annually means a pay decrease.

Not getting a yearly absolute increase ‘after indexing’ is rarely accepted in my apparently extremely socialistic country, but not automatically getting the inflation as wage increase would make all hell break lose. Heck people would probably need double jobs, start complaining about gas prices, immigrants getting free housing, and maybe even vote a dictator who claims to have all the solutions. Welfare is directly connected to minimum wage and thus indexed yearly too. Retirement/pension too. That’s not socialism, it’s elementary. This is the way. Else you make people getting wages more poor while the rich making profits get richer.

In theory sure a good way to curb inflation: make sure regular folk can’t afford anything and with that reduce demand. Isn’t working out is it. Just as the opposite is not physics. Increasing to $30 instantly would be a bad idea already because it’s impossible to tell what the effect would be. The uncertainty, not more inflation by default, is the concern. All major changes in wages and for example tax cuts and subsidies are typically spread out over years because of that. Let’s not get hung up on the exact number for min wage, 20 vs 30 that would be an argument between whether it should be low or high rather than whether it should decrease every year. Which is still baffling considering the inflation over the past years.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Why do you not think all the other countries would dumped money onto their citizens also? When did inflation start to kick in, after people started to get back to normal. The money given out was to keep the economy/people going. But a lot of people did not spend the money when they were holed up at home (except the home renovation sector took off).



Canadian price index, or inflation graph. I did post two links to answer your question on wages and inflation, you could have picked through the bunch if you liked. I am running up against time constrains, no I can not post to the standards I guess I set for myself. Usually takes me up to 1-2 pm before I can shed my internet duties each day. Yes I put a lot of time in for you guys and the other forums I take part in. You will not find studies of minimum wage increasing inflation as politicians let the minimum wage lag as compared to inflation. I am not arguing that a jump in minimum wage causes inflation. If all of a sudden the population finds itself with much more money than it had before, do you not think prices will rise? That was what I was saying.

If you do not believe so, fine. But what would happen to the price of cars if the minimum wage earners all of a sudden make $30/hr?
I can think of a lot of very good things that would happen if all of a sudden wages were to suddenly rise. I'm not at all certain that the increase in the price of cars would increase more than wages. If it did temporarily jump, so what? That's not nearly as important as the cost of housing, which would also jump but with the extra income people have, maybe we'd see a jump in new housing. But I'm not advocating for an immediate wage increase. I'm advocating for policies to shift most of the benefits of this strong economy to the people most responsible for this economy being strong -- that being the people who are doing the work. I think capitalism has a place but the US is way too heavily tilted toward extreme capitalism. Too few people receive most of the benefits of GDP growth, its getting worse, not better and we need to re-direct the flow of benefits of labor. Its not just about the minimum wage, in fact, that's almost irrelevant. It's about the extreme concentration of wealth in today's US society and the harm that is doing to the US's ability to prosper in the future.

Also, fuck Trump.
 

Bad Karma

Well-Known Member
I dunno man, I just feel like Carter is the Last president we had that ACTUALLY did care about the people.
Jimmy Carter’s heart was always in the right place, no one can ever take that away from him.
He was a good man trying to do the right thing for his country.

His administration may have made mistakes, but we now know for a fact the Republican Party negotiated to sabotage the release of the hostages, behind the government’s back.
They negotiated for the hostages to stay LONGER so they could walk out to freedom with Reagan in office.
The hostage crisis was literally politically engineered to ruin Carter’s reelection chances.
That goes far beyond political gamesmanship, that’s intentionally damaging the country, and risking lives, just so you can say that you’re the one who fixed it.
Those involved in such behavior can only be called soulless traitors to this country and are disgusting human beings in general.
Unfortunately, that heartless, soulless, playbook of politics is more rampant than ever.

I will give credit to John McCain for speaking up, and correcting people, who were trying to cast doubt on Obama’s nationality/religion during their election.
That was decent of him to do and showed a lot of heart.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I’m aware min wage isn’t the same in every state. I’m also aware not everyone or even most work for minimum wage. For many making more than minimum it’s exactly that, a salary based on x above minimum. Setting one is a separate issue from indexing it to account for inflation every year. Not indexing annually means a pay decrease.

Not getting a yearly absolute increase ‘after indexing’ is rarely accepted in my apparently extremely socialistic country, but not automatically getting the inflation as wage increase would make all hell break lose. Heck people would probably need double jobs, start complaining about gas prices, immigrants getting free housing, and maybe even vote a dictator who claims to have all the solutions. Welfare is directly connected to minimum wage and thus indexed yearly too. Retirement/pension too. That’s not socialism, it’s elementary. This is the way. Else you make people getting wages more poor while the rich making profits get richer.

In theory sure a good way to curb inflation: make sure regular folk can’t afford anything and with that reduce demand. Isn’t working out is it. Just as the opposite is not physics. Increasing to $30 instantly would be a bad idea already because it’s impossible to tell what the effect would be. The uncertainty, not more inflation by default, is the concern. All major changes in wages and for example tax cuts and subsidies are typically spread out over years because of that. Let’s not get hung up on the exact number for min wage, 20 vs 30 that would be an argument between whether it should be low or high rather than whether it should decrease every year. Which is still baffling considering the inflation over the past years.
Part of the problem is that there is steady pressure, both political and bureaucratic, to limit the cost-of-living index, as entitlement/ social welfare payments are directly tied to it. Keeping it down is in the interest of the funding bodies, since it makes what they have go further or last longer.

Trouble is, if every year the same little bookkeeping tweaks are applied, their effect builds exponentially. That’s how a percent here, a percent there each year can be devastating integrated across say thirty years. (or forty-two, counting from Reagan)
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Since auto workers, distributors and sales personnel do not earn the minimum (first two unionized; last operate on a commission basis) the cost to the dealer should go up much less than proportionally.

Also, automakers are pretty quick to increase production to meet demand, some boutique models excepted.

So I expect no great change, as cars are not a limited commodity in the sense of gold or classified Bordeaux or beachfront property.
Looking to buy a car? Expect to pay more and spend months, even years waiting
Calgary father Stefan Takacs put down a deposit for a Toyota Sienna a year and a half ago. He and his wife need a bigger vehicle to accommodate their three children, including a son with cerebral palsy.

“He’s small enough now, I can still pick him up, but eventually we’ll need one of those Siennas with the adapted accessibility ramps,” Takacs told Global News.

But he has no idea if or when the minivan will arrive. Takacs has tried calling other Toyota dealerships across Alberta, but they’re out of stock as well.

“I found another dealership in Calgary, and they actually said the wait for a new Sienna is now four to five years,” Takacs said. “Sure, we can buy something that’s definitely less efficient, but nowadays everything is so expensive.”

Jenni Alton lives in Carrot River, Sask., three hours northeast of Saskatoon, and is also in the market for a vehicle.

“You can’t even test drive these days. There’s nothing on the lots,” Alton said.

She has spent eight months searching for something basic in her budget.

“I’m not looking to spend $45,000 on a car that I’m going to put 30,000 kilometres on to go back and forth to work with,” Alton said. “I need something to haul my lunch bag.”

Across the country, Canadians are dealing with historically high prices and frustratingly long wait times.

“Prices for new vehicles are about 60 per cent higher at the retail level relative to pre-pandemic,” according to Scotiabank Economist Rebekah Young, who closely watches the auto industry.

According to data from Auto Trader, the average price of a new vehicle in Canada has topped $60,000.

“At a very simple level, it’s been an inventory shortage,” Young told Global News. “We just haven’t had enough new or used vehicles over the last three and a half years relative to a very strong demand.”

A shortage of semiconductors is contributing to low inventories. Semiconductors are needed to power electronically controlled systems in vehicles.
Given persistent supply chain issues, some automakers are prioritizing making higher-end vehicles, where profit margins are bigger.

“I don’t believe we’ll go back to 2019 prices. The reason why is that cars are more expensive to make overall,” said Charles Bernard, lead economist with the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association.

Electric vehicles are particularly expensive. “Those vehicles for manufacturers require more electrical components, software elements.”
Canada has mandated 20 per cent of all vehicles sold will need to run on electricity by 2026.
Peter O’Leary manages a Donnelly Ford Lincoln dealership in Ottawa and has seen prices and demand surge for used vehicles.

“The cost of a used Civic has probably never been higher,” O’Leary said. “We’re seeing the same on a lot of our popular models like [Ford] Escapes.”
O’Leary doubts he will ever return to his pre-pandemic inventory levels and acknowledges some customers are becoming increasingly desperate.

“The wait is frustrating, especially for those who are in situations where they’re coming out of leases or have had an accident.”

Other side of the border.

Inflation and the auto industry: When will car prices drop?

Car prices rose dramatically in 2022 as a result of global supply chain issues, with a persistent chip shortage holding up production in the auto industry. While semiconductor supply is expected to improve in 2023, new car prices will likely remain elevated due to inflationary input costs.

U.S. consumers forked out an average of $46,437 for a new vehicle in January 2023, marking a year-over-year increase of 4.2%, according to data from J.D. Power. This is an all-time high for the month of January and indicates no real relief from 2022’s record prices.

“We estimate that half of the increase in new vehicle prices relates to the passing along of higher input costs,” said Ryan Brinkman, Lead Automotive Equity Research Analyst at J.P. Morgan. “There’s still a lot of inflation bubbling up in the new vehicle supply chain. Even though raw material costs are falling, suppliers have a lot of other higher non-commodity costs — diesel, freight, shipping, logistics, labor, electricity — to pass on to automakers.”

The shortage of new cars has fueled demand for used cars, causing prices for the latter to surge. Inflationary pressures have also trickled down to the used car market, where average prices continue to track at around 30% above pre-pandemic levels.

“Used vehicle prices and new vehicle prices exist in a sort of feedback loop,” said Brinkman. Fewer new vehicles on the road mean there are fewer second-hand vehicles to trade in, straining used car inventories. And like new vehicles, used vehicles are sensitive to changes in commodity prices too, as these affect their scrap value.

While new car prices reached an all-time high in December 2022 and are likely to remain above pre-pandemic levels, prices will ease slightly this year.
 

MtRainDog

Well-Known Member
It's the same problem that goes back to the beginning of human civilization. There's those whose problems are more immediate (most of us), and those that are hell bent to power trip their way through life. I don't think it means anything other than that's our biology and people like to gripe about being a product of the day and age they live in. Welcome to life. Carry on.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Looking to buy a car? Expect to pay more and spend months, even years waiting
Calgary father Stefan Takacs put down a deposit for a Toyota Sienna a year and a half ago. He and his wife need a bigger vehicle to accommodate their three children, including a son with cerebral palsy.

“He’s small enough now, I can still pick him up, but eventually we’ll need one of those Siennas with the adapted accessibility ramps,” Takacs told Global News.

But he has no idea if or when the minivan will arrive. Takacs has tried calling other Toyota dealerships across Alberta, but they’re out of stock as well.

“I found another dealership in Calgary, and they actually said the wait for a new Sienna is now four to five years,” Takacs said. “Sure, we can buy something that’s definitely less efficient, but nowadays everything is so expensive.”

Jenni Alton lives in Carrot River, Sask., three hours northeast of Saskatoon, and is also in the market for a vehicle.

“You can’t even test drive these days. There’s nothing on the lots,” Alton said.

She has spent eight months searching for something basic in her budget.

“I’m not looking to spend $45,000 on a car that I’m going to put 30,000 kilometres on to go back and forth to work with,” Alton said. “I need something to haul my lunch bag.”

Across the country, Canadians are dealing with historically high prices and frustratingly long wait times.

“Prices for new vehicles are about 60 per cent higher at the retail level relative to pre-pandemic,” according to Scotiabank Economist Rebekah Young, who closely watches the auto industry.

According to data from Auto Trader, the average price of a new vehicle in Canada has topped $60,000.

“At a very simple level, it’s been an inventory shortage,” Young told Global News. “We just haven’t had enough new or used vehicles over the last three and a half years relative to a very strong demand.”

A shortage of semiconductors is contributing to low inventories. Semiconductors are needed to power electronically controlled systems in vehicles.
Given persistent supply chain issues, some automakers are prioritizing making higher-end vehicles, where profit margins are bigger.

“I don’t believe we’ll go back to 2019 prices. The reason why is that cars are more expensive to make overall,” said Charles Bernard, lead economist with the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association.

Electric vehicles are particularly expensive. “Those vehicles for manufacturers require more electrical components, software elements.”
Canada has mandated 20 per cent of all vehicles sold will need to run on electricity by 2026.
Peter O’Leary manages a Donnelly Ford Lincoln dealership in Ottawa and has seen prices and demand surge for used vehicles.

“The cost of a used Civic has probably never been higher,” O’Leary said. “We’re seeing the same on a lot of our popular models like [Ford] Escapes.”
O’Leary doubts he will ever return to his pre-pandemic inventory levels and acknowledges some customers are becoming increasingly desperate.

“The wait is frustrating, especially for those who are in situations where they’re coming out of leases or have had an accident.”

Other side of the border.

Inflation and the auto industry: When will car prices drop?

Car prices rose dramatically in 2022 as a result of global supply chain issues, with a persistent chip shortage holding up production in the auto industry. While semiconductor supply is expected to improve in 2023, new car prices will likely remain elevated due to inflationary input costs.

U.S. consumers forked out an average of $46,437 for a new vehicle in January 2023, marking a year-over-year increase of 4.2%, according to data from J.D. Power. This is an all-time high for the month of January and indicates no real relief from 2022’s record prices.

“We estimate that half of the increase in new vehicle prices relates to the passing along of higher input costs,” said Ryan Brinkman, Lead Automotive Equity Research Analyst at J.P. Morgan. “There’s still a lot of inflation bubbling up in the new vehicle supply chain. Even though raw material costs are falling, suppliers have a lot of other higher non-commodity costs — diesel, freight, shipping, logistics, labor, electricity — to pass on to automakers.”

The shortage of new cars has fueled demand for used cars, causing prices for the latter to surge. Inflationary pressures have also trickled down to the used car market, where average prices continue to track at around 30% above pre-pandemic levels.

“Used vehicle prices and new vehicle prices exist in a sort of feedback loop,” said Brinkman. Fewer new vehicles on the road mean there are fewer second-hand vehicles to trade in, straining used car inventories. And like new vehicles, used vehicles are sensitive to changes in commodity prices too, as these affect their scrap value.

While new car prices reached an all-time high in December 2022 and are likely to remain above pre-pandemic levels, prices will ease slightly this year.
I’m guessing we are looking at the sort of predictable global catastrophe to which deep stacks of just-in-time production/inventory management are inherently prone. It’s not much different from the feedback cascades that create urban traffic jams.

I’d say the paradigm needs a frame-up redesign.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I can think of a lot of very good things that would happen if all of a sudden wages were to suddenly rise. I'm not at all certain that the increase in the price of cars would increase more than wages. If it did temporarily jump, so what? That's not nearly as important as the cost of housing, which would also jump but with the extra income people have, maybe we'd see a jump in new housing. But I'm not advocating for an immediate wage increase. I'm advocating for policies to shift most of the benefits of this strong economy to the people most responsible for this economy being strong -- that being the people who are doing the work. I think capitalism has a place but the US is way too heavily tilted toward extreme capitalism. Too few people receive most of the benefits of GDP growth, its getting worse, not better and we need to re-direct the flow of benefits of labor. Its not just about the minimum wage, in fact, that's almost irrelevant. It's about the extreme concentration of wealth in today's US society and the harm that is doing to the US's ability to prosper in the future.

Also, fuck Trump.
I have no problem with wages to rise, my question was how he would go about it. Throwing a bunch of new money into the system will just make its way up the food chain, another billionaire or two if the system remains the way. One thing that is upsetting the apple cart is the pandemic, it caused some nearshoring to happen, more to come. This will bring more prosperity to the US. Want to kick it up into high gear, have the US no longer patrol the seas. Container traffic will be at the mercy of pirates driving up the costs. The only problem with that is the powers that be will get preasured by big business to keep profits going. That and Taiwan. China said it will take it over, not just when. If there was not much high tech manufacturing there it would only be a bummer for the Taiwanese. But we can not let the tech get in China's hands. Wish we could just ship it over here but I bet Taiwan may not like that.
 
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