I Have A ? For You Religious People.

[shroomer33]

But no one can know where a higher power came from either... It kinda sucks investigating these things because when you get answers you will end up with more questions. If they were to prove that we started from the big bang, our next investigation would be what came before the big bang (it is theorized that it came from membranes that collided and caused the big bang~M Theory). If they proved it started with a god, our next investigation would be where god came from. Tiresome business.

The thing with all of this is that when you start dealing with small time scales like 10^-44 s, say 10^-44s after the big bang, space-time gets really fuzzy. Particles no longer have locality in space. Time starts to lose meaning. So it starts to become a stupid question to ask anything about 'before' and 'after'. So we can't really ask what came 'before' the universe.
As for branes (not to be confused with loop quantum gravity), they still exist in space-time, or 'the bulk' (at least mathematically. Who knows if they really 'exist'?). In other words they are subject to the flow of time. For example, D-branes can't exceed the speed of light. This shows that these branes are subject to laws of physics that break down at small time scales. It also needs to be pointed out that these are two different models of the univerese.
All this talk is really bullshit until we solve this whole quantum gravity thing. That is what I am trying to say. There are so many models out there for the 'beginning' of the universe. And big bang cosmology differs dramatically from oscillating brane cosmology in their formulations.


My point is that you can't really ask what came 'before' God or the big bang, at least not yet. Like I said, we need to figure out quantum gravity. And even then it may not make sense to ask that question, but at least we'd have a better understanding of why we can't ask that question.


Padawan,
This is starting to get into why it would kick so much ass if we had a theory that was independent of space-time.

Here is a technical paper on what I am talking about:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0404/0404122v1.pdf
It has some good stuff that isn't too technical in the first 2 pages. If you have questions, I may be able to help.

 

[turkish420]

But no one can know where a higher power came from either... It kinda sucks investigating these things because when you get answers you will end up with more questions. If they were to prove that we started from the big bang, our next investigation would be what came before the big bang (it is theorized that it came from membranes that collided and caused the big bang~M Theory). If they proved it started with a god, our next investigation would be where god came from. Tiresome business.

You hit the nail on the head Anonymiss! thats exactly what i was trying to
say! its a perpetuating cycle. even if say scientists figured out where THAT specific particle(s) came from, say, another universe or demension or what have you, then we have to figure out how that universe or demension was created. Chasin our tails. Humans dont have the mental capabilities to figure all this out, hell, religion and God could have very well been a product of early mans (and womans) way of coping with death and the loss of a loved one. Its easier when you believe that theyre going to a place thats better than here and that theres someone there thats all powerful that will take care of them. pretty grim to think that this is it and there's nothing that happens when you die, but, thats my point, we dont know. . . until its our time to go.

 

[jeffchr]

no no no.. how it works is "Hexolizamus" aka dinosaurs were from the 2nd dimension and were sucked into a black hole which dropped them off here on earth. they tried to adapt but they died. adam and eve came from a different dimension, but they were already adapted to earth somehow. and they didnt have sex.. they cloned eachother lol. and THEN they had sex.. so it doesent count! lol. oh ya, god is the black hole.. he is almighty! mmm.. yup thats what happened.

i could perhaps participate in that religion r u starting a church?

 

[jeffchr]

.........
Here is a technical paper on what I am talking about:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0404/0404122v1.pdf
It has some good stuff that isn't too technical in the first 2 pages. If you have questions, I may be able to help.

hey shroomer - isn't it true that when you break-down an atom into it's smallest parts, then those particles start to exhibit properties of energy, either exclusively or perhaps exhibiting both matter and energy properties?

so like the eastern philosophies hold true their belief that matter is just energy.

 

[fish601]

a giant whose tail is likened to a cedar tree (Job 40:15). Some scholars have tried to identify the behemoth as either an elephant or a hippopotamus. Others point out that elephants and hippopotamuses have very thin tails, nothing comparable to a cedar tree. Dinosaurs like the brachiosaurus and the diplodocus, on the other hand, had huge tails which could easily be compared to a cedar tree.

Nearly every ancient civilization has some sort of art depicting giant reptilian creatures. Petroglyphs, artifacts, and even little clay figurines found in North America resemble modern depictions of dinosaurs. Rock carvings in South America depict men riding diplodocus-like creatures and, amazingly, bear the familiar images of triceratops-like, pterodactyl-like, and tyrannosaurus rex-like creatures. Roman mosaics, Mayan pottery, and Babylonian city walls all testify to man’s trans-cultural, geographically unbounded fascination with these creatures. Sober accounts like those of Marco Polo’s Il Milione mingle with fantastic tales of treasure-hoarding beasts. In addition to the substantial amount of anthropic and historical evidences for the coexistence of dinosaurs and man, there are physical evidences, like the fossilized footprints of humans and dinosaurs found together at places in North America and West-Central Asia.

 

[BradyBoe]

Dude, you're just a talker and you like to create contriversy and problem's. that's the only reason you were so negative with my thread. What a dickhead!!!! Live your life and stop caring about other people's lives!!! jerk!!

 

[cbtwohundread]

iim friends with a unicorn,named unity.,.,it told i it slayed all the dragons with its uni-horn beam.,.,

 

[FrontaLobotomy]

I think religion makes it very difficult for people who are religious to be taken seriously, regardless of what they believe in. There are many religious scholars out there that accept evolutionary theory, but look to God as a mean's of 'why' as opposed to 'how' if you get what I mean. I recently read about some kooky neo-christian guy that has a mock garden of eden with dinosaurs roaming around it, by all accounts the modern christian has to accept science as a means of being able to explain many things that were previously unexplained. The bible, Torah/Old Testement, qu'ran or whatever don't exist as an indisiputable truth for how we came to be, or our destiny. They exist as a collection of narratives that are supposed to teach us lessons on morality. It's only the extremists in the modern era that claim it to be an undeniable truth, and anyone that spends time indulging in debate with these people are just as deluded and foolish as the people they claim to be better than.
The single greatest problem in the ongoing debate in religion vs. science/enlightenment is that everyone thinks they are right, and until there is a uniform truth that no one can dispute, it will continue in the same way that it has been for the last 1000 or so years.
Were Dinosaurs around? Of course they were. Do Christians believe in dinosaurs? They would be pretty stupid not to, and most aren't.

It riles me a little that the only religion that people bash is christianity. You are aware that Judaism and Hinduism alone pre-date christianity by at least 1000 years. I find it insulting on some levels that many in the western world claim to be so profoundly enlightened, yet know so very little about the rest of this world. Given Europe and America barely account for one third of the global populous, it's looking to be a case of many not being able to look beyond the end of their own noses. And the most amusing part of this is, the last Pope (John Paul II) actually acknowledged evolution as a valid explanation for our origins. When the many posters here talk about christians, are you sure you're not just talking about those fruitcake sects that have spawned in America; Mormons, fucking around with snakes and speaking in tongues? Yes, those people are in general full of shit. I've still come across theological scholars that picked up first class honours in top universities, so they can't be morons.

Religion will take a lifetime to argue, regardless of your point of view.

 

[PadawanBater]

It riles me a little that the only religion that people bash is christianity. You are aware that Judaism and Hinduism alone pre-date christianity by at least 1000 years. I find it insulting on some levels that many in the western world claim to be so profoundly enlightened, yet know so very little about the rest of this world. Given Europe and America barely account for one third of the global populous, it's looking to be a case of many not being able to look beyond the end of their own noses. And the most amusing part of this is, the last Pope (John Paul II) actually acknowledged evolution as a valid explanation for our origins. When the many posters here talk about christians, are you sure you're not just talking about those fruitcake sects that have spawned in America; Mormons, fucking around with snakes and speaking in tongues? Yes, those people are in general full of shit. I've still come across theological scholars that picked up first class honours in top universities, so they can't be morons.

Yes, those are exactly the people I'm talking about. The reason I mainly criticize Christianity is because those fruitcakes are the ones claiming to be Christians. Also because I live in America, where Christianity the majority belief. If I lived in the middle east, you can bet your ass I'd be talking just as much trash about Islam and sharia law. I also touched on that in another thread.. could of been this one, I'm not sure.. but the actual Christians, the ones that accept evolution, accept science, don't force their beliefs on other people, etc. they need to come out of the woodworks and tell the retards that are giving their belief a bad name to stop spitting all the disinformation propaganda crap that's designed to prey on weak minds. Robertson, Hovind, Hamm..etc.. and other people like those idiots are the problem with organized religion.

 

[fairyweed]

Dude, you're just a talker and you like to create contriversy and problem's. that's the only reason you were so negative with my thread. What a dickhead!!!! Live your life and stop caring about other people's lives!!! jerk!!

Awww does it make u feel better that ur in my thread?? Now did u even read my first post in this thread?? Or u in here to pout? Would u like comment on my questions?? Now see this is why I this site cause I can get answers or thought on this subject... When I even memtion this to my family(cathliocs) they change the subject ... See wat y'all saying ... I ain't never heard that... But it in a way can be made sense of... U know there is a religon where they worship a speggitti monster ... Dude that's awesome ...I guess you could say im the type that has to see it to believe it...

 

[jeffchr]

Yes, those are exactly the people I'm talking about. The reason I mainly criticize Christianity is because those fruitcakes are the ones claiming to be Christians. Also because I live in America, where Christianity the majority belief. If I lived in the middle east, you can bet your ass I'd be talking just as much trash about Islam and sharia law. I also touched on that in another thread.. could of been this one, I'm not sure.. but the actual Christians, the ones that accept evolution, accept science, don't force their beliefs on other people, etc. they need to come out of the woodworks and tell the retards that are giving their belief a bad name to stop spitting all the disinformation propaganda crap that's designed to prey on weak minds. Robertson, Hovind, Hamm..etc.. and other people like those idiots are the problem with organized religion.

ahmen to that brother

 

[shroomer33]

Yes, those are exactly the people I'm talking about. The reason I mainly criticize Christianity is because those fruitcakes are the ones claiming to be Christians. Also because I live in America, where Christianity the majority belief. If I lived in the middle east, you can bet your ass I'd be talking just as much trash about Islam and sharia law. I also touched on that in another thread.. could of been this one, I'm not sure.. but the actual Christians, the ones that accept evolution, accept science, don't force their beliefs on other people, etc. they need to come out of the woodworks and tell the retards that are giving their belief a bad name to stop spitting all the disinformation propaganda crap that's designed to prey on weak minds. Robertson, Hovind, Hamm..etc.. and other people like those idiots are the problem with organized religion.

That's funny cause I tried telling one of these guys, one who said that new stars aren't being formed, that we have seen new stars being formed. It was like talking to a wall.
Lame....

 

[PadawanBater]

That's funny cause I tried telling one of these guys, one who said that new stars aren't being formed, that we have seen new stars being formed. It was like talking to a wall.
Lame....

lol, where do they come up with that shit man...

 

[shroomer33]

hey shroomer - isn't it true that when you break-down an atom into it's smallest parts, then those particles start to exhibit properties of energy, either exclusively or perhaps exhibiting both matter and energy properties?

so like the eastern philosophies hold true their belief that matter is just energy.

Are we talking standard model physics? That is, quarks, gluons, and electrons, or do we want to go beyond the standard model and talk about strings?
Standard model stuff is mostly proven. String stuff isn't.

But yes, everything at that small of a length scale gets described in terms of energy. Mass is energy and energy is mass. There really is no difference.
All this comes from E=mc^2.

I don't really know what you mean by properties of energy though. Particles certainly become wavelike, which is what you may mean by 'properties of energy'.

You are also right in saying that subatomic particles have two different properties, sometimes behaving completely wavelike(energy?) and other times they act like a particle (matter?). In some cases, the particle interpretation is used. In other cases, wave interpretation is used. It all depends on what is being asked. That is one of the many trippy things about quantum mechanics. The ramifications of this wave nature of single particles are really really trippy. For example, say you have two electrons. They are completely identical. There is no way to say 'this' electron and 'that' electron. One line from one of my undergrad texts on quantum mechanics that has always stuck in my head is that God doesn't know the difference between two electrons because there is no such thing as 'this' and 'that' electron...anyway...it's all awesome.

 

[shroomer33]

a giant whose tail is likened to a cedar tree (Job 40:15). Some scholars have tried to identify the behemoth as either an elephant or a hippopotamus. Others point out that elephants and hippopotamuses have very thin tails, nothing comparable to a cedar tree. Dinosaurs like the brachiosaurus and the diplodocus, on the other hand, had huge tails which could easily be compared to a cedar tree.

Nearly every ancient civilization has some sort of art depicting giant reptilian creatures. Petroglyphs, artifacts, and even little clay figurines found in North America resemble modern depictions of dinosaurs. Rock carvings in South America depict men riding diplodocus-like creatures and, amazingly, bear the familiar images of triceratops-like, pterodactyl-like, and tyrannosaurus rex-like creatures. Roman mosaics, Mayan pottery, and Babylonian city walls all testify to man’s trans-cultural, geographically unbounded fascination with these creatures. Sober accounts like those of Marco Polo’s Il Milione mingle with fantastic tales of treasure-hoarding beasts. In addition to the substantial amount of anthropic and historical evidences for the coexistence of dinosaurs and man, there are physical evidences, like the fossilized footprints of humans and dinosaurs found together at places in North America and West-Central Asia.

The whole dragon thing in the bible is just a translation from the hebrew word tanniyn.
I wonder what the old Jews thought of when they heard 'tanniyn'. It was probably nothing like what we think of when we hear 'dragon'.

 

[what... huh?]

Why did you guys shit all over fish? You asked a question and he gave you the biblical answer.

The behemoth.

15 Behold now the behemoth that I have made with you; he eats grass like cattle.
16 Behold now his strength is in his loins and his power is in the navel of his belly.
17 His tail hardens like a cedar; the sinews of his tendons are knit together.
18 His limbs are as strong as copper, his bones as a load of iron.
19 His is the first of God's ways; [only] his Maker can draw His sword [against him].
20 For the mountains bear food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there.
21 Does he lie under the shadows, in the covert of the reeds and the swamp?
22 Do the shadows cover him as his shadow? Do the willows of the brook surround him?
23 Behold, he plunders the river, and [he] does not harden; he trusts that he will draw the Jordan into his mouth.
24 With His eyes He will take him; with snares He will puncture his nostrils.

So if Job's behemoth is believed to be a dinosaur, then they believe in dinosaurs... but that we walked the earth with them... and THEN they became extinct... and all radiometric dating is flawed. This is basically the belief of the Young Earth Creationists. It is as utterly ridiculous as the rest, but it is the answer to your question.

 

[PadawanBater]

and all radiometric dating is flawed. This is basically the belief of the Young Earth Creationists. It is as utterly ridiculous as the rest, but it is the answer to your question.

Show me why. Quite the statement there wh.

 

[jeffchr]

.......... There is no way to say 'this' electron and 'that' electron. One line from one of my undergrad texts on quantum mechanics that has always stuck in my head is that God doesn't know the difference between two electrons because there is no such thing as 'this' and 'that' electron...anyway...it's all awesome.

Thx man, that is exactly what I was talking about. The string theory I don't understand at all. Frankly, I think it is too complicated and bazaar to be real, but then again to astronomers and physicists I suppose its all just math so it doesn't matter how it reflects conceptually to us common folk.

Anyway, it is a wonder how all matter can be described as wave theory at the most fundmental levels.

I am not religous, but I think some religions believe that in the "beginning" there was only the word of God - OM, wave energy.

 

[jeffchr]

Why did you guys shit all over fish? You asked a question and he gave you the biblical answer.

it is pretty well accepted by science that people and dinosaurs inhabited the earth at different times. the evidence for this comes from many different disciplines and has been analyzed by the finest minds. whoever wrote the misleading bs in the bible is pretty low on my credibility list - just say'n.

you know ultimately, we are all just people. anybody can write anything. you need to use your mind to determine who is credible.

 

[poopmaster]