Harrekin
Well-Known Member
So you'd like to see a return to the feudal system would you? You don't just conquer land, so does Afghanistan count as American land? And I Iran invaded Israel and won you'd just accept that it's Iranian land then?
Israel's cost to the American people estimated to be a staggering $2 trillion
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fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
There is a huge difference between being a partisan fighter and attacking civilians. So in your view if someone attacks you, you counter attack and gain a bunch of land you would then give the land back and let em try at it again? Honestly? Oh and it wasn't just one war. They attack and attack and you would honestly sit back and take it. Oh and this is different than Afghanistan because this is a neighbor issue.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Generally speaking in the 20th and 21st century after a war is fought land isnt kept, after a normalisation of relations the country is generally given its territory back. Do you think the Allies should annexed Germany indefinitely after WW2?
And given your logic, was Hitler not justified in seeking "living space" by attacking his neighbours for their territory?
And given your logic, was Hitler not justified in seeking "living space" by attacking his neighbours for their territory?
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
But you yourself said it, after a normalization of relations. Has this happened?
Both sides seem to love war more than they'll admit. In fact their leaders can't remain in power over their people unless they constantly stage war and fear based campaigns. A people held in fear are easily manipulated and controlled by a relative few large and in charge. Ultimately without a focus on an outside enemy, Israel's own would turn on other Jews and nasty infighting would ensue. Like in America, many are the "Jews" (translation: Regular nondescript human beings) who otherwise would hate or oppress their own who just didn't measure up to some ideal or go to a particular Synagogue, etc. It's hilarious how the New Testament speaks of the Jews who will be destroyed and their Temple removed as another people, when other than a few Greek Gentiles and some Pagans, Jesus himself and all the rest were Jews themselves. It isn't about the common people, Jews or otherwise. It's about those leaders who run the whole show, the hands of a few or any sovereign who will meet their untimely demise accordingly.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
It hasn't happened because you can't talk to your enemy if your foot is on his face. The ball is in Israels court but they are just bouncing it at their feet when they could just serve...you get me?
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Israel has suspended building on the west bank for periods of time and it never stopped the bombings nor helped the negotiations.
Insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
When the Palestinian people get serious about peace they will elect some other group than Hamas.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Drinking the kool-aid
again bro? Of course an oppressed people is gonna elect a militant faction who promises liberation and to fight the foreign occupiers, not to say its the wisest but it is predictible. Also a temporary settlement building freeze and preconditions are not whats gonna get peace.
Hamas said they'd accept the two state solution with land swaps...so how exactly is it the Palestenian people dragging their feet? Even Obama said eventually Israel would have to accept the two state.
Ok explain this to me. Why does Israel have a a right to exist but Palestine does not?
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
And Iv said it before, if you want a model to follow, look at Anglo-Irish relations for the past 850ish years.
They occupied us and were our mortal enemies for 850 years, gave us our independence even though the IRA was elected and now there are few stronger allies/trading partners than Ireland and England.
Their queen even visited Ireland last year and laid a wreath in our Garden of Rememberence for people who died fighting for our freedom.
Why is it Israel cant just accept the two state solution and have peace?
They occupied us and were our mortal enemies for 850 years, gave us our independence even though the IRA was elected and now there are few stronger allies/trading partners than Ireland and England.
Their queen even visited Ireland last year and laid a wreath in our Garden of Rememberence for people who died fighting for our freedom.
Why is it Israel cant just accept the two state solution and have peace?
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
The two state solution can't work for one shining reason. It would cut the defense capabilities to none. It's not like they have a neighbor who is looking for peace. As you say it can not work if there is no peace, and why is it when someone makes a incredibly valid point they are drinking the kool aid, but you spout propaganda and its cool? You see why I have trouble taking you seriously right?
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
They both have a right to exist but until Palestine stops lobbing bombs into Israel and blowing up civilians with suicide bombs I am not going to hold Israel accountable for defending itself and its citizens.
They stop building they get attacked. They have open borders, suicide bombers cross over. They get attacked for building walls to protect their women and children. The bombings continue. They get attacked for check points, for security all the time while the bombing continues.
If you are Palestinian, what the hell are you thinking? You continually attack a person yet demand that he lets his guard down. It is insanity on the part of the Palestinians. You let terrorists launch bombs into Israel without opposing them and then act shocked as incoming shells cause collateral damage? You have no acknowledgement of cause and effect.
Palestine is causing the oppression... Until the attacks stop the blood is on the hands of Hamas and Palestine.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Who has lost more territory and lives? Israel is the belligerent, if they left the Palestenians alone they wouldn't be attacked. Causation.
Again how do you expect to negotiate with someone if you have your foot on their face?
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Why do you think the Palestenians attack Israel? Simple question.
(I'm expecting one of Bush's "they hate our freedom" style answers)
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
How do you expect to negotiate with someone who is lobbing bombs into your country? How do you tell your people everything is ok when suicide bombers and killing women and children in marketplaces? How can you expect it to stop?
What do you think would happen if Mexico started lobbing artillery into the USA? How many shells do you think we would put up with before we stopped it? Do you think Israel's response has been more or less than what America did if it was attacked from another country? What about any other country in the world?
If I have my foot on the face of an enemy I know will kill me if I back off then what should I do?
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
And exactly how many shells do the Mexicans fire into the US outta interest? Thats right, zero, cos you let them be.
Neither of you see to realise that I'm pro-Israel, just I think Israels current status quo is effecting their security and also infringing on the basic human rights of an entire people.
Would it surprise you both to learn that with a quick Google search you'd find a majority of Israelis and Palestenians support the two state solution and want genuine peace?
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry I've been reading that mlk thread. That shit is nuts. And let me say this, if you do not whole heartedly condemn hamas then you can in no way be an Israel supporter, it sounds cute but I'm not buying it for a moment. This is a fight of existing not territory. But the palastinians will always be the victims. As long as they continue to get EVERYTHING paid for by Israel.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Again, why would a seperste Palestenian state attack Israel? Wouldn't they be all too busy working at jobs and living their lives to care what Israelis are doing? It might even open a market for Israeli produced goods, boosting the Israeli economy.
Or just keep them downtrodden and keep the rockets flying.
I personally think the latter is way more anti-Israel than the former.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Really? Well then why doesnt that majority rise up and say ENOUGH? Why doesnt that majority stop the terrorists from lobbing shells into Israel. Why dont they prevent and decry the suicide bombers? When they are sick and tired of the status quo they will. Because until THE PALESTINIANS STOP ATTACKING nothin is going to get better.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Well the Palestenians are the occupied, armed resistance is expected. Ask George Washington.
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
Do you condemn them? Simple question yet no answer, and again the relation between this conflict and the revolutionary war are not there. Just because you keep saying it it won't magically become true.
