And just who was Ashcroft

medicineman

New Member
"Ashcrofts great plan for dissidents IE Enemy Combatants!" Attorney General John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be 'enemy combatants' has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace." Actually, ever since General Ashcroft pushed the U.S. Patriot Act through an overwhelmingly supine Congress soon after September 11, he has subverted more elements of the Bill of Rights than any attorney general in American history.
Under the Justice Department's new definition of "enemy combatant"—which won the enthusiastic approval of the president and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld—anyone defined as an "enemy combatant," very much including American citizens, can be held indefinitely by the government, without charges, a hearing, or a lawyer. In short, incommunicado.
Two American citizens—Yaser Esam Hamdi and Jose Padilla—are currently locked up in military brigs as "enemy combatants." (Hamdi is in solitary in a windowless room.) As Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe said on ABC's Nightline (August 12):
"It bothers me that the executive branch is taking the amazing position that just on the president's say-so, any American citizen can be picked up, not just in Afghanistan, but at O'Hare Airport or on the streets of any city in this country, and locked up without access to a lawyer or court just because the government says he's connected somehow with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. That's not the American way. It's not the constitutional way. . . . And no court can even figure out whether we've got the wrong guy."
In Hamdi's case, the government claims it can hold him for interrogation in a floating navy brig off Norfolk, Virginia, as long as it needs to. When Federal District Judge Robert Doumar asked the man from the Justice Department how long Hamdi is going to be locked up without charges, the government lawyer said he couldn't answer that question. The Bush administration claims the judiciary has no right to even interfere.
Now more Americans are also going to be dispossessed of every fundamental legal right in our system of justice and put into camps. Jonathan Turley reports that Justice Department aides to General Ashcroft "have indicated that a 'high-level committee' will recommend which citizens are to be stripped of their constitutional rights and sent to Ashcroft's new camps."
It should be noted that Turley, who tries hard to respect due process, even in unpalatable situations, publicly defended Ashcroft during the latter's turbulent nomination battle, which is more than I did.
Again, in his Los Angeles Times column, Turley tries to be fair: "Of course Ashcroft is not considering camps on the order of the internment camps used to incarcerate Japanese American citizens in World War II. But he can be credited only with thinking smaller; we have learned from painful experience that unchecked authority, once tasted, easily becomes insatiable." (Emphasis added.)
Turley insists that "the proposed camp plan should trigger immediate Congressional hearings and reconsideration of Ashcroft's fitness for important office. Whereas Al Qaeda is a threat to the lives of our citizens, Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties." (Emphasis added.)
On August 8, The Wall Street Journal, which much admires Ashcroft on its editorial pages, reported that "the Goose Creek, South Carolina, facility that houses [Jose] Padilla—mostly empty since it was designated in January to hold foreigners captured in the U.S. and facing military tribunals—now has a special wing that could be used to jail about 20 U.S. citizens if the government were to deem them enemy combatants, a senior administration official said." The Justice Department has told Turley that it has not denied this story. And space can be found in military installations for more "enemy combatants."
But once the camps are operating, can General Ashcroft be restrained from detaining—not in these special camps, but in regular lockups—any American investigated under suspicion of domestic terrorism under the new, elastic FBI guidelines for criminal investigations? From page three of these Ashcroft terrorism FBI guidelines:
"The nature of the conduct engaged in by a [terrorist] enterprise will justify an inference that the standard [for opening a criminal justice investigation] is satisfied, even if there are no known statements by participants that advocate or indicate planning for violence or other prohibited acts." (Emphasis added.) That conduct can be simply "intimidating" the government, according to the USA Patriot Act.
The new Steven Spielberg-Tom Cruise movie, Minority Report, shows the government, some years hence, imprisoning "pre-criminals" before they engage in, or even think of, terrorism. That may not be just fiction, folks.
Returning to General Ashcroft's plans for American enemy combatants, an August 8 New York Times editorial—written before those plans were revealed—said: "The Bush administration seems to believe, on no good legal authority, that if it calls citizens combatants in the war on terrorism, it can imprison them indefinitely and deprive them of lawyers. This defiance of the courts repudiates two centuries of constitutional law and undermines the very freedoms that President Bush says he is defending in the struggle against terrorism." Meanwhile, as the camps are being prepared, the braying Terry McAuliffe and the pack of Democratic presidential aspirants are campaigning on corporate crime, with no reference to the constitutional crimes being committed by Bush and Ashcroft. As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis prophesied: "The greatest menace to freedom is an inert people." And an inert Democratic leadership. See you in a month, if I'm not an Ashcroft camper.

 

medicineman

New Member
Damn ... old, mouldy news. Anything new to report?

Vi
Old or not, it still shows the terror tactics used by this Govt. Enough Can not be said about losing our freedoms and How we lost them. You of all people a supposed libertarian would condone these laws passed by the Bush regime, fucking pathetic. I must assume then that you were full of shit about the libertarian bullshit and are pleased to accept dictatorial laws. I think you are a gross hypocrite, if a law suits your situation then it's OK even if it strips freedoms from others. Do you have any mirrors in your palace?
Capitalist society is the most bloody and warlike in human history. The graveyards are piled high with the dead from two world wars, the Vietnam war and countless colonial conflicts. Yet the Labour Party has backed every war, great and small, since it was founded in the first years of the century. In spite of this workers have often taken to the streets to try and stop the carnage. In the First World War and the Vietnam war such mass movements were successful. This pamphlet looks at why capitalism breeds war, why the Labour Party backs war and what role socialists can play in ending the society that produces war.
 

medicineman

New Member
Capitalism is the most bloody and warlike society in human history. The armies of Alexander the Great were a fraction of the number of dead in the Vietnam War. All the weapons possessed by the Crusaders of the Middle Ages could not do the damage in a week that a modern fragmentation shell can wreak in seconds. The 20th century in particular has seen enough people killed in wars to have depopulated the known world in previous eras.
Capitalism was born a murderous infant and its appetite for slaughter has grown as it has aged. The first capitalist state, England, had no sooner settled accounts with Charles I and the old order than it turned to butchering the inhabitants of its first colonies in Ireland and Jamaica.
The American settlers had barely thrown off the yoke of British rule before they set about annihilating the American and Canadian indians. Meanwhile the British had found fresh blood to let in India, Africa and elsewhere.
The French Revolution saved the country from the ancient oppression of the monarch and his nobles, but as soon as the capitalist class was secure NapoleonUs armies set out to create an empire, the last shreds of which French forces still fight to defend today.
As industry spread across the globe, these first capitalist states were joined by othersQGermany, Japan, Italy, RussiaQin their hunt for gold and slaves, oil and opium, markets, cheap labour and strategic advantage. The competition between them gave us the First World War. The same development of industry which led to the imperialist rivalries that sparked the war also ensured it was the most bloody which had ever been fought .
Weapons of mass destruction unimaginable before the development of industry now killed millions. Tanks and machine guns, gas and aircraft made this the first war in which the majority of dead were the victims of other soldiers, not of disease. The British alone lost 20,000 dead in a single day on the Somme and one million dead in the four years of war. And if capitalist industry caused the war it also had to keep the war going. Directed labour, censorship, conscription and the bombing of towns made this the first total war, a war fought at home as well as on the battlefield.
The First World War did nothing to solve the crisis that had produced it. The economic crises of capitalism continued and the latecomers to the imperialist contest still chaffed at the limits set by the older powers. The Second World War broke out just 20 years after the peace conference that was supposed to set up a new international order.
The intervening years had worsened all the obscenities which characterised the First World War. More lives were eaten up by more terrible weapons, culminating in the United States' use of the atomic bomb against an already beaten Japan. Civilians were more than ever the targets of warfare, as the carpet bombing of Dresden and other German cities by Britain testified. The Russians alone lost 20 million dead.
At the war's end the major powers dusted themselves down and once again began preparing for another. Spending on arms reached unprecedented levels. Nazi rocket scientists were quickly brought to the US and Britain to help perfect the weapons they had begun work on under Hitler. Within five years the Korean War was under way, at a cost of 1.5 million lives. Within a decade of its end the Vietnam War had begun, in which 55.000 US troops would die. The Vietnamese struggle for liberation eventually cost 2.5 million dead. many of them peasants murdered by US soldiers, carpet bombing and napalm attacks.
But Vietnam and Korea are only the two best known wars to have gripped the world since the peace celebrations in 1945. In fact the world has not been at peace for a single day since then. Over 80 wars have kept the generals and the munitions industry busy. The death toll is somewhere between 15 and 30 million people. Today some 40 countries are in the grip of war, or civil war or are being destabilised by their neighbours.
And the victims cannot simply be numbered by counting those killed by bombs and guns. Today some 13 million have fled their home country and another 16 million refugees have fled their homes within their country. It is a migration greater than the homeless hordes who crossed Europe at the end of the Second World War.
Even when no shot is fired, the incalculable billions poured into the arms industry mean that every day babies and old people, the sick and the homeless, the poor and the dispossessed die because the means to save their lives has been used up in weapons production .
So why is our system so bloody? Why does the carnage grow with each succeeding generation? Could there be a capitalist .system without war? The key feature of capitalism, as right-wingers constantly tell us, is competition. Competition drives the least efficient to the wall, we are told, so that only the most profitable survive. Firms, be they the corner shop or the Ford corporation, are constantly looking tor new customers or markets, for cheaper suppliers and to pay their workforces less than their rivals. "The national interest" is defined as the defence of "our" markets and RourS industry.
In the economic textbooks this competition is portrayed as entirely peaceful, conducted only through the impersonal operations of the market. In reality it has never been peaceful. The capitalists have never stuck to the rules either when they deal with their workers or with their rivals. Hired thugs will break up union meetings and the army will break strikes. The police and the law, the press and the courts have always been at the beck and call of the employers to ensure that wages stay low and unions stay cowed. From the Tolpuddle Martyrs through the General Strike of 1926 to the Great Miners' Strike of 1984, that is the story of the class struggle in Britain.
When it comes to dealing with their rivals, the major capitalists are equally unscrupulous. Industrial espionage, price fixing, cartels and monopolies are part of the everyday functioning of the system. So is violence. In the 17th century English privateers raided their Dutch and Spanish competitors. As soon as the British capitalists got hold of the state they built a navy to do the job professionally. In the 18th century the troops of the East India Company, eventually backed up by the state, subdued India and threw out the rivals to English capitalism. In the 19th century British troops and the British navy extended the empire throughout Africa, Asia and the West IndiesQall to ensure that British capitalists could gain access to cheap raw materials, new markets and cheap labour.
All the while, but especially from the end of the 19th century, British troops fought not only the people of the colonies but their rivals from other capitalist powers. However. over this period the economic competition between different capitalist firms had changed the nature of capitalism. As competition bankrupted the least profitable firms. their markets and factories were taken over by the more profitable companies. Consequently the average size of firms tended to rise. Capitalism ceased to consist of a number of different firms competing in each industry and became a system where one or two large firms dominated each industry. Indeed they often dominated more than one industry.
As the corporations grew they increasingly burst through national boundaries. International monopolies or oligopolies dominated international markets. And as the firms became larger they became ever more intertwined with the state and its armed forces. Multinational capital depends on the armed forces of the state to defend it from its rivals and from popular revolts in countries where it has profitable investments, just as it relies on the police to protect it from its workers at home.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Med sez ...

"it's OK even if it strips freedoms from others"

Then he sez ...

"Old or not, it still shows the terror tactics used by this Govt. Enough Can not be said about losing our freedoms and How we lost them. You of all people a supposed libertarian would condone these laws passed by the Bush regime, fucking pathetic. I must assume then that you were full of shit about the libertarian bullshit and are pleased to accept dictatorial laws. I think you are a gross hypocrite, if a law suits your situation then it's OK even if it strips freedoms from others. Do you have any mirrors in your palace?"

Putting all of your inane insults aside, if a citizen of the United States travels to a foreign country and is acting as an non-uniformed combatant for the factions that are killing our military personnel, then I think ... in fact, I most profoundly believe, that they have waived any constitutional protections they may have once held. I also believe that non-uniformed personnel who shoot at our troops, no matter from which country they originate from, are not entitled to any provisions under the Geneva Conventions either.

All this bullshit foisted upon us by the left about how the Bush administration is a terrorist organization because of imprisoning non-military and non-uniformed personnel who kill our troops is nothing but that ... nothing but bullshit.

And yes, I'm a Libertarian ... a Classicial Liberal in the Jeffersonian sense. You can see it in my posts. Well, those who aren't stone-blind can see it anyway.

Med ... its time for you to start looking into the ulterior motives of those you so blindly follow. Based upon your stated support of the agenda of the communists (you agreed with their platform, remember?), and the quotes you use as your signiture here on the forum, I know you probably have heard this before, but it bears repeating here. Lenin had a very apt description for folks like you. He refered to your type as "Useful Idiots." I think the description is fairly accurate in your case.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Med sez ...

"it's OK even if it strips freedoms from others"

Then he sez ...

"Old or not, it still shows the terror tactics used by this Govt. Enough Can not be said about losing our freedoms and How we lost them. You of all people a supposed libertarian would condone these laws passed by the Bush regime, fucking pathetic. I must assume then that you were full of shit about the libertarian bullshit and are pleased to accept dictatorial laws. I think you are a gross hypocrite, if a law suits your situation then it's OK even if it strips freedoms from others. Do you have any mirrors in your palace?"

Putting all of your inane insults aside, if a citizen of the United States travels to a foreign country and is acting as an non-uniformed combatant for the factions that are killing our military personnel, then I think ... in fact, I most profoundly believe, that they have waived any constitutional protections they may have once held. I also believe that non-uniformed personnel who shoot at our troops, no matter from which country they originate from, are not entitled to any provisions under the Geneva Conventions either.

All this bullshit foisted upon us by the left about how the Bush administration is a terrorist organization because of imprisoning non-military and non-uniformed personnel who kill our troops is nothing but that ... nothing but bullshit.

And yes, I'm a Libertarian ... a Classicial Liberal in the Jeffersonian sense. You can see it in my posts. Well, those who aren't stone-blind can see it anyway.

Med ... its time for you to start looking into the ulterior motives of those you so blindly follow. Based upon your stated support of the agenda of the communists (you agreed with their platform, remember?), and the quotes you use as your signiture here on the forum, I know you probably have heard this before, but it bears repeating here. Lenin had a very apt description for folks like you. He refered to your type as "Useful Idiots." I think the description is fairly accurate in your case.

Vi
Nice, quoting me out of context. I think it is you who are wrong big guy and all the right wing drivel you post here will not sway me from my beliefs that a purely capitalitic society is inherently evil. A capitalistic society joined with socialistic workings is way more teneble. I am not against people making profit but when profit overwhelms all other interests, then it is an evil entity. All the people in a society need to have the basic necessities of a comfortable life. The ruling classes need to go. If they can be absorbed then so be it, otherwise other means should be deployed. If you consider yourself in the ruling class then be fearful, for change is coming
 

ViRedd

New Member
"If you consider yourself in the ruling class then be fearful, for change is coming..."

And exactly what is there to fear, Med? I believe it was you who said that Marxism is "peaceful," did you not?

"All the people in a society need to have the basic necessities of a comfortable life."

And you, like all Marxists, continue to fail in describing HOW you would provide all those basic necessities without using force. Want to give it another try, Med? Come on ... surely you have an answer as to how your little communist regiem would take over, then level the playing field without using force. You DO have the answer, don't you Med?

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
"If you consider yourself in the ruling class then be fearful, for change is coming..."

And exactly what is there to fear, Med? I believe it was you who said that Marxism is "peaceful," did you not?

"All the people in a society need to have the basic necessities of a comfortable life."

And you, like all Marxists, continue to fail in describing HOW you would provide all those basic necessities without using force. Want to give it another try, Med? Come on ... surely you have an answer as to how your little communist regiem would take over, then level the playing field without using force. You DO have the answer, don't you Med?

Vi
Hell no, If I had the answer I'd think I was you, you claim to know everything. I guess when you're you, you're just right all the time. God it must be nice to be so self righteous, Are you an narcissistic ass or what!
 

ViRedd

New Member
Hell no, If I had the answer I'd think I was you, you claim to know everything. I guess when you're you, you're just right all the time. God it must be nice to be so self righteous, Are you an narcissistic ass or what!
So then, I will take that as an admission that you really don't know beans about what you're talking about. You say that you want to change the country drastically from an economic standpoint. That you want to end "greed." That you want to level the playing field. BUT ... you have no idea how to do it? Your's is the politics of the non-thinking and is totally based upon feelings. I know you don't realize it Med, but you are a very dangerous person.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
So then, I will take that as an admission that you really don't know beans about what you're talking about. You say that you want to change the country drastically from an economic standpoint. That you want to end "greed." That you want to level the playing field. BUT ... you have no idea how to do it? Your's is the politics of the non-thinking and is totally based upon feelings. I know you don't realize it Med, but you are a very dangerous person.

Vi
Why thank you. Are you going to send the Bush cops after me for my thinking. That figures a supposed libertarian deeming it necessary to curtail "my" thoughts while posting his right wing drivel like a drunken sailor deposits his sperm all over a whores belly. You are the hypocrite of the year and deserve some kind of reward, I'll be thinking of one, Dangerous, ~LOL~ you fucking slay me!
 

ViRedd

New Member
Why thank you. Are you going to send the Bush cops after me for my thinking. That figures a supposed libertarian deeming it necessary to curtail "my" thoughts while posting his right wing drivel like a drunken sailor deposits his sperm all over a whores belly. You are the hypocrite of the year and deserve some kind of reward, I'll be thinking of one, Dangerous, ~LOL~ you fucking slay me!
Let's see now ... displays a cock and balls for his Avatar and seems obsessed with sperm. Hmmmm ... is there a pattern developing here?

Vi

PS: You can have all the dangerous thoughts you want. Its your right. But, until you start posting HOW you would implement your ideas and what the effect those ideas would have on society as a whole, your ideas have no relevance.
 

medicineman

New Member
Let's see now ... displays a cock and balls for his Avatar and seems obsessed with sperm. Hmmmm ... is there a pattern developing here?

Vi

PS: You can have all the dangerous thoughts you want. Its your right. But, until you start posting HOW you would implement your ideas and what the effect those ideas would have on society as a whole, your ideas have no relevance.
You thinking they might have an effect on you? Relevance is as relevance does. I wonder how much we'd have to raise your taxes to have single payer health care, hmmmmmm..............
 
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