Stimulating Waste

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
by John Stossel | July 19, 2011

In his column today, Ezra Klein sums up Keynesian economics by saying that Keynes "taught us that although markets are usually self-correcting, they occasionally enter destructive feedback loops....In that situation, the role of the government is to break the cycle. Because businesses and consumers have stopped spending, the government breaks the cycle by spending."

His description of what Keynesians believe is correct. It's why Keynesians, including the President, thought that government spending would stimulate the economy. As Klein points out, "Obama didn't just have a team of Keynesians. He had the Keynesian all-star team."

Right, but then Klein gets it wrong: "The idea [behind Keynesian economics], in other words, is not about whether the government spends money better than individuals."

Yes it is! Obama and Klein think that during a recession, "the financial system scares business and consumers so badly that they hoard money, which worsens the damage to the system." Therefore, the government must take money away from individuals, and spend it elsewhere. Eric Cantor correctly pointed out that the theory is: "government can be counted on to spend more wisely than the people."

When government spends, politicians pick winners and losers. Government normally picks big, politically connected interest groups - like big banks (in the case of TARP) or big unions (in the case of the "Stimulus Package").

In one example from the stimulus package, the government wasted $10 million on renovating an abandoned train station that no one has used for 30 years. The private sector might have created prosperity with that money.

Keynesian economics fails becuase government misallocates resourses, and because government can't create wealth. It can only move it around. Spending isn't free. The stimulus may have created or saved some jobs, but they came at a high price -- the President's own study says $278,000 each. That price must be paid by individuals, either in the form of higher taxes or inflation.

Where is the FDA when we need it? Keynesians continue to sell very expensive medicine-despite having no good evidence that it works.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I like how you quote Klein, he is one my favorite guys to read at the Washington Post.
Keynesians continue to sell very expensive medicine-despite having no good evidence that it works.
Except the mountians of evidence throughout WORLD history, we call it empirical evidence.

There is actually a pretty little flow chart floating around the interwebs ATM, which describes our situation and it's cures... It simplifies the argument a little, but is quite useful in explaining why it is necessary for government to spend:


edit: one thing I feel I should point out is that at "fiscal stimulus" you have two possible directions you can go... downwards leads back to a liquidity trap, which is what happens when the stimulus is not large enough or made up of the wrong things (like tax cuts!), when you have enough stimulus it works.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
by John Stossel | July 19, 2011

In his column today, Ezra Klein sums up Keynesian economics by saying that Keynes "taught us that although markets are usually self-correcting, they occasionally enter destructive feedback loops....In that situation, the role of the government is to break the cycle. Because businesses and consumers have stopped spending, the government breaks the cycle by spending."

His description of what Keynesians believe is correct. It's why Keynesians, including the President, thought that government spending would stimulate the economy. As Klein points out, "Obama didn't just have a team of Keynesians. He had the Keynesian all-star team."

Right, but then Klein gets it wrong: "The idea [behind Keynesian economics], in other words, is not about whether the government spends money better than individuals."

Yes it is! Obama and Klein think that during a recession, "the financial system scares business and consumers so badly that they hoard money, which worsens the damage to the system." Therefore, the government must take money away from individuals, and spend it elsewhere. Eric Cantor correctly pointed out that the theory is: "government can be counted on to spend more wisely than the people."

When government spends, politicians pick winners and losers. Government normally picks big, politically connected interest groups - like big banks (in the case of TARP) or big unions (in the case of the "Stimulus Package").

In one example from the stimulus package, the government wasted $10 million on renovating an abandoned train station that no one has used for 30 years. The private sector might have created prosperity with that money.

Keynesian economics fails becuase government misallocates resourses, and because government can't create wealth. It can only move it around. Spending isn't free. The stimulus may have created or saved some jobs, but they came at a high price -- the President's own study says $278,000 each. That price must be paid by individuals, either in the form of higher taxes or inflation.

Where is the FDA when we need it? Keynesians continue to sell very expensive medicine-despite having no good evidence that it works.
the government renovated the train station?? or did it hire private subcontractors to renovate a station that otherwise would crumble into rubble, while putting several good people to work????

the stimulus did NOT FAIL. no matter how much you choose to repeat it over and over and over and over.

it was a monumental success, and the only thing that failed about it was that it wasn't large enough....
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Start digging a hole, then filling it up again, at the end of the day have you created anything of value? The world works on making things of value and trading them for other things of value, Money is only used in furtherance of this ideal. When you make things of no value to anyone ( a train station that will just become a pile of rubble again) you are just wasting wealth, once wealth is gone you cannot get it back. Dollars are not wealth, they are just paper.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
If all the wealth sitting on the sidelines was actually in use, we would've had a V shaped recovery but because demand is depressed companies have no reason to invest that money expanding and so they don't; The government is the only player left, there is no crowding out in this type of demand driven downturn.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
You are right, everyone is waiting for the other shoe to drop before they invest again. Some have already started buying commodities, especially PM's due to their amazing ability to thwart inflation.
 
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