Light Quantity vs Light Quality Evidence ... Just for 4 u gg lol!

Do you think quantity is more important than quality


  • Total voters
    122

Johnnycannaseed1

Well-Known Member
Whoa are folk hitting 2.5+gpw... If so then they cannot be doing that on just LED vs HID efficiency alone, and that kinda throws it back to spectrum playing a role in such increase because I cannot see any other major factors, unless of course someone else can?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
And that again just adds to the evidence that spectrum plays a major role, because that is the key difference between HPS and modern COB LEDs.

With HPS it was all about hitting 1g/w (strain dependent of course) but that was the magical target to try and aim for.

With LEDs its all about seeing if the boat can be pushed to 2g/w

GPW is something even the naysayers cannot dismiss although I am sure they will try:lol:

Edit I must confess after thinking about this that LEDs ability to convert a higher amount of electrical energy into useable light when compared to HIDs is probably the main reason for increased GPW figures although at this stage I am not discounting that spectrum could increase yields. But this does not account for variance in colour, taste and aroma nor how spectrum affects plant morphology, and how that in itself could affect overall yield. Maybe instead of arguing we should collectively put our heads together in order to create a set of experiments that can definitively answer these questions, any suggestions feel free to throw them out there folks!
I've been running exactly the experiments you suggest for years now.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Keep your 1 gpw HPS. Have fun buying and replacing those bulbs every year if you want to stay above 0.5 gpw.

Personally I'm going to stick with a 1.8 gpw system and I'll replace it when the efficiency is obsolete and people are hitting 2.5+ gpw. One thing you'll never see is a COB grower replacing one because it broke or died out.
Nah, I've broken them. It wasn't the chip's fault, though!
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
plants clearly use this energy for something.as a gardener at the university once told me " I don't understand all these fancy theories. I need to let my plants tell me what they want".but I guess the LED crowd know more than the designer of plants. plants use light for a lot more than just photosynthesis. plant have close to 400 pigments that we have been able to identify and we are still learning what they do in plants.
Not sure what you are arguing about, because you can simply lookup a grow report of someone using one of those blurple fixtures and see them grow plants with blue and red leds only.

Anyway, the point you were trying to make that McCree curves have any meaning on what plants need is simply untrue.

It's like humans can eat just loads of different things. Yet we don't need to eat all of it.

Or sugar and fat are things that gives us the most energy. That doesn't mean we should eat those in proportion to how much energy they give us compared to other foods.

Does that help understand the McCree curves a little better?
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Like your BS claim of those plants in the other thread being bleached by the light, even though the leaves were perfectly fine... you really do talk some major crap o_O

Clearly critical thinking and reading is beyond your mental capacity so I suggest you sit this one out;-)
Yes, those plants were very obviously bleached and the leaves were clearly NOT fine. The leaves in the top were completely white and the ones below were yellowed proportional to how close to the light they were!

The fact that you can't even understand simple things like that, goes a long way to explain how you think your epic fail of an "experiment" proves anything. Lol and then you claim I lack critical thinking. That's the essence of what I am. I see bullshit, I shovel it away.

Buying a scientific tool like a quantum meter doesn't turn you from a tool into a scientist. I'll bet even your quantum meter is one of those "cheap" Apogee things (or worse) which is so inaccurate that it's completely useless for experiments like this (if it would actually have been performed properly).
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Sweet:)... What sort of figures are you hitting and have you noticed improvements/differences with regards to overall quality taste/aroma/looks ?
I've pulled honest to goodness 2 pounders from my COB LED runs. Recently I got 25oz from a plant grown in a 5 gallon bucket of soilless mix and fed my standard recipe of dry hydroponic nutrient salts.

People can tell the difference between COB LED grown product and that grown under my 860W CDM Allstart lamps- from across the room.

Frost, density, weight, aroma, flavor and potency are all better. This isn't just my own opinion, it comes from all those who've looked at and tried both.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Ok. And thanks for the kind words.
Going from tried n true HPS to anything else is going to involve a learning curve, but for a counterintuitive reason; HPS spectrum is so mismatched to the plant's needs that it takes a fair amount of adjustment to get used to anything else!

For example, I've recently learned how important heat is to plants. They must have it to transpire and thus draw nutrients up with this water. HPS emits so much excess heat that most growing strategies are designed around mitigating its effects. When such heat removal strategies become unnecessary with different lighting, some confusion can result on the part of the grower.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
You read wrong, I meant I would replace current COBs when it reaches this point, which should be in about 5 years.

Well, you can drive Vero 29's @ 5w a piece and maybe do 2.5 gpw.
Funny thing though, at some point leds will get too efficient and, unless you live somewhere very warm, you will need to add a heater to reach the required temperature in the grow room. Which defeats the purpose of increasing efficiency to some extent.

In actual led vs HPS test grows done by universities, this problem was already apparent with current generation leds (2.3umol/s/J) in green houses.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Funny thing though, at some point leds will get too efficient and, unless you live somewhere very warm, you will need to add a heater to reach the required temperature in the grow room. Which defeats the purpose of increasing efficiency to some extent.

In actual led vs HPS test grows done by universities, this problem was already apparent with current generation leds (2.3umol/s/J) in green houses.
Really? Can you post a link or two? I'd like to read up.
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Going from tried n true HPS to anything else is going to involve a learning curve, but for a counterintuitive reason; HPS spectrum is so mismatched to the plant's needs that it takes a fair amount of adjustment to get used to anything else!

For example, I've recently learned how important heat is to plants. They must have it to transpire and thus draw nutrients up with this water. HPS emits so much excess heat that most growing strategies are designed around mitigating its effects. When such heat removal strategies become unnecessary with different lighting, some confusion can result on the part of the grower.
Your grand opinion of how science and technology work is getting ridiculous. I just can't let mis information like this go.

We can use air cooled hoods to remove the "excess" heat from our awful HPS bulbs and have them run as cool as we want. My 315 open reflector is putting off the same heat at least and has to be blown away from the canopy and exhausted which is not as efficient in my little room.

Also the HPS bulbs many of us use have a much better spectrum than an old streetlight and grow fantastic plants. And although I have seen an improvement from the ceramic bulb I believe it is the Uv that is causing the potency and psychoactivity increase as there is only a little more blue light.

And the blue light in a Hortilux Super HPS has already been increased dramatically.

And your ceramic bulbs have a better spectrum, intensity and some Uv over your cobs so if the weed isn't better under them than your cold cobs you are doing something to affect the outcome. Or your room is not right.

Results are as such in our industry ty.

HPS last. Then enhanced HPS and metal halide. Cobs next haveing more terpenes on average and first for everything in lab tests is ceramic metal halide. Best spectrum and uv. And an average of 4% increase in thc.

You could grow better weed (if you are good enough for the light source to matter) with a good bluple and some t-5's.

I have not even seen a recommended horticultural light yet that has cobs. Only on weed forums. But I will concede that HPS started as streetlights too and advanced. And cobs may too.

And the other led is too. But they are going with specific wavelength bulbs in addition to full range "white" ones for the best spectrum for plant growth and it is adjustable for different stages.

And it took a few days of observation to get amazing results from my new LEC 315. I must have been confused because of the amazing change in growth. Lol.

And you should know. My Hortilux 600's grow a bigger better put together bud and with more penetration through the canopy for better developed buds all through. The ceramic as stand alone would hurt my results. It's weak for intensity. They are better for supplemental lighting. Or I need twice as many.

Sorry man. But you say you have 30 years of experience and are involved in the industry in one post and you don't know basic electronics or basic plant science in the next.

And none of your plant pics show a plant healthy enough for you to determine results of any kind.

I have been trying to be nice after another forum expert got upset with me. But he has no real results or actual knowledge either. You are the resident Cob expert on his website aren't you?

Some people have 20 years of experience doing what they love. And some people only really have 1 year of experience repeated 20 times.

That's what you forum experts are like. All of the info being argued is out there. Weed has not been an unknown cultivar for many years.

Maybe 20 more years will help?
 
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frica

Well-Known Member
I have not even seen a recommended horticultural light yet that has cobs. Only on weed forums. But I will concede that HPS started as streetlights too and advanced. And cobs may too.
?
A reason is that when produced on a bigger scale, reflow soldering the LEDs on a panel costs less than having to screw in individual cobs.
COBs are easy for DIY and small scale.

Any bigger scale and it's easier to just put the LEDs in an oven to have them soldered on a board.
Mid power leds are just as efficient anyway.

If you want UV, you can always use a mercury vapour lamp as supplemental lighting.
A regular T5 doesn't deliver enough UVB, and the amount of UV it puts out degrades very quickly over time.
Though terrarium T5s that are designed to put out UVB/A or
http://download.p4c.philips.com/lfb/c/comf-2775/comf-2775_pss_en_aa_001.pdf
are fine though.


 
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MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
A reason is that when produced on a bigger scale, reflow soldering the LEDs on a panel costs less than having to screw in individual cobs.
COBs are easy for DIY and small scale.

Any bigger scale and it's easier to just put the LEDs in an oven to have them soldered on a board.
Mid power leds are just as efficient anyway.

If you want UV, you can always use a mercury vapour lamp as supplemental lighting.
A regular T5 doesn't deliver enough UVB, and the amount of UV it puts out degrades very quickly over time.
Though terrarium T5s that are designed to put out UVB or
http://download.p4c.philips.com/lfb/c/comf-2775/comf-2775_pss_en_aa_001.pdf
are fine though.


Interesting point about the manufacturing.

The uv has been improved in t-5's. Hortilux and others have specific uv and uv added bulbs that do test sufficiently for uv penetration at a greater distance.

I'm good with my newly purchased 315 LEC for spectrum and I really don't want high levels of uv in my room for health reasons.

Seems for yield cost and quality the commercial HPS supplemented with cmh growers have the right idea in my opinion.

But I am sure led is the future. Everything is circuit boards like you pointed out. Even most of the wires in our vehicles have been replaced by them.
 

frica

Well-Known Member
Interesting point about the manufacturing.

The uv has been improved in t-5's. Hortilux and others have specific uv and uv added bulbs that do test sufficiently for uv penetration at a greater distance.

I'm good with my newly purchased 315 LEC for spectrum and I really don't want high levels of uv in my room for health reasons.

Seems for yield cost and quality the commercial HPS supplemented with cmh growers have the right idea in my opinion.

But I am sure led is the future. Everything is circuit boards like you pointed out. Even most of the wires in our vehicles have been replaced by them.
With supplemental UV lighting the nice thing is that you can just turn them off when you inside the room, and still have the other lights on.

UV-B leds exist, but those are currently way too expensive.
http://www.qphotonics.com/Deep-UV-light-emitting-diode-350-500uW-295nm.html

Also Hortilux recommends replacing their "PowerVEG FS+UV" lights every 8-12 months.
UV output degrades very quickly with fluorescents.
Luckily you don't need a lot of supplemental UV lighting anyway.
 

Stephenj37826

Well-Known Member
A reason is that when produced on a bigger scale, reflow soldering the LEDs on a panel costs less than having to screw in individual cobs.
COBs are easy for DIY and small scale.

Any bigger scale and it's easier to just put the LEDs in an oven to have them soldered on a board.
Mid power leds are just as efficient anyway.

If you want UV, you can always use a mercury vapour lamp as supplemental lighting.
A regular T5 doesn't deliver enough UVB, and the amount of UV it puts out degrades very quickly over time.
Though terrarium T5s that are designed to put out UVB/A or
http://download.p4c.philips.com/lfb/c/comf-2775/comf-2775_pss_en_aa_001.pdf
are fine though.



Check out these for UV(caution these are bad ass)

http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Hey this setup only generates 2052 Heat watts and is 61.5% Efficient. One day I might get my flower room fitted with this setup Growmau5 has whit how the lights move up and down on a lift. I would be happy with the amount of heat that would be in the room. I wouldn't need AC unless it was sealed.


CXB3590CD36V3500K 150 COBS @1.05A ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
150 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 5671.28
Cobs power watts: 5331
Total voltage forward: 5078
Total lumens: 1039545
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 2951
Total PPF: 13722.15
PPFD based on canopy area: 984.69
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 19.67
Cob efficiency: 61.5%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 35.54
Voltage forward per cob: 33.85
Lumens per watt: 195.0
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 2052
umol/s/W / CRI: 4.65 / Estimated
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 2439 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 813 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $2.42
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $306.75
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $459.87
Cost per cob: $47.62
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $7143
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $1610
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $536
 

Johnnycannaseed1

Well-Known Member
Yes, those plants were very obviously bleached and the leaves were clearly NOT fine. The leaves in the top were completely white and the ones below were yellowed proportional to how close to the light they were!

The fact that you can't even understand simple things like that, goes a long way to explain how you think your epic fail of an "experiment" proves anything. Lol and then you claim I lack critical thinking. That's the essence of what I am. I see bullshit, I shovel it away.

Buying a scientific tool like a quantum meter doesn't turn you from a tool into a scientist. I'll bet even your quantum meter is one of those "cheap" Apogee things (or worse) which is so inaccurate that it's completely useless for experiments like this (if it would actually have been performed properly).

There you go with your research, I will do you one better because I have Actually witnessed it in Actual grows.

Get ready to be proven wrong numbnutso_O

Did you notice the plant is at the end of flower tell me something what happens to nitrogen deficent leaves at the end of flowering do they not in fact look exactly like the ones in pic 3 below?

Also tell me if it is bleaching alone in pic 3 then why are the leaves structurally in tact with no signs of burning as would be the case with too much light?

The 2 pics below clearly show what the onset of bleaching looks like, note the uneveness of the discolouration and how pronounced it is as opposed to pic above where the leaves are uniformally discoloured, and only lightly so and this is exactly what I mean about you lacking the ability to correctly interpret what you are seeing/reading!






Albino Mj is the result of a Genectic mutatuion known as Variegation

To quote;

"Botanists and other experts from the plant world arrived and cleared up all possible doubts: “It's called ‘variegation’ and is probably one of the most striking mutations that can be witnessed in the cannabis world.” This anomaly occurs when the genes that control the production of chlorophyll are not expressed correctly, giving rise to plants with albino characteristics.

When this mutation takes place there appear plants that are totally white, or with incredible patterns, coloured or colourless. It all depends on the cause of the albinism: if it is due to a double albino gene the whole plant is white. If it comes from a malfunction of the genes that regulate chlorophyll production, it will feature patterns or areas as white as snow."

The plant below is clearly an albino type and if you were half the expert you pretend to be, then you would have realized this Fact!

 
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