Trump is the iceberg, the Democratic party is the Titanic, and progressives are the lifeboat

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I don't like the idea of revolution but if there is to be one, I'd suggest we start shooting the rich first.
The good news is that the donor class is only a few thousand people. If we confine the violence to them, bloodshed would be minimised and change would come rapidly.

THIS IS SARCASM.

To be clear, I don't advocate violence. My point is that a tiny fraction of our population has bought our political system and is running a massive propaganda campaign against the rest of us for purposes of profit and personal power.

About 3000 out of a population of about 300,000,000 = .00001 or one in ten thousand. If that's not the definition of oligarchy, tell me what is?!
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
http://www.ozy.com/pov/why-international-leadership-is-slipping-through-americas-hands/76293?utm_source=OZYAPP&utm_medium=ANDROIDPDB&utm_campaign=DD

Thanks to the extremist tendencies of the ultra rich in America running our country according to their whims, we are losing our standing in the world, and our security at home.

Many would say it doesn't matter, but I say the relative peace and prosperity the world has enjoyed for the last 70 years speaks for itself.

'government BY the people, FOR the people.' ... NOT the dollar, or the Donald.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Your solution is to simply shrug and continue to support a political machine that doesn't respond to your needs.

That's not my idea of a solution.

A left wing version of the Tea Party would win in a landslide. After all, the right wing version had less sorry and look where the Republicans are today? Hint; EVERYWHERE.
Your idea of a solution NEEDS wide spread acceptance first.

You talk to republicans here. You'll need some to flip.

And no, a left wing version of the teaparty isn't winning much in this political climate.

How did the right wing version do?

I've been around long enough to see how slow change is.

All I ever hear are solutions that sound simple. You never take into consideration the damn obstacles. The other side isn't going to just roll over. They trust in fake news, ffs!

edit: nobody wants to touch my question about how Sanders or Clinton would get anything passed through our current congress. Obama was blocked for 6 years.
 
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Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
Your idea of a solution NEEDS wide spread acceptance first.

You talk to republicans here.

And no, a left wing version of the teaparty isn't winning much in this political climate.

How did the right wing version do?

I've been around long enough to see how slow change is.

All I ever hear are solutions that sound simple. You never take into consideration the damn obstacles. The other side isn't going to just roll over. They trust in fake news, ffs!
Globally, dropping all raciest, class and gender issues and focus.

"we are the world, la de da da da"

Air & Water is the one thing we all have in common and China is errr, we are killing 4400 tax payers a day.
edit
Oh,not to derail, where's the lifeboats? sorry
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Your idea of a solution NEEDS wide spread acceptance first.

You talk to republicans here. You'll need some to flip.

And no, a left wing version of the teaparty isn't winning much in this political climate.

How did the right wing version do?

I've been around long enough to see how slow change is.

All I ever hear are solutions that sound simple. You never take into consideration the damn obstacles. The other side isn't going to just roll over. They trust in fake news, ffs!

edit: nobody wants to touch my question about how Sanders or Clinton would get anything passed through our current congress. Obama was blocked for 6 years.
A Progressive party is a stick to whip the establishment with until they move, just like the tea party was. And the tea party worked, or haven't you noticed the Republican dominance at State and Federal levels?
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
A Progressive party is a stick to whip the establishment with until they move, just like the tea party was. And the tea party worked, or haven't you noticed the Republican dominance at State and Federal levels?
I don't think the majority of the republicans currently in power identify with the teaparty. Majority would be more establishment.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I don't think the majority of the republicans currently in power identify with the teaparty. Majority would be more establishment.
Yet the tea party was very effective in providing support for an ever harder rightward turn.

I think the same strategy applied to the left would be even more effective as it would reflect the needs and desires of a much larger group of voters.
 

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
Yet the tea party was very effective in providing support for an ever harder rightward turn.

I think the same strategy applied to the left would be even more effective as it would reflect the needs and desires of a much larger group of voters.
Now we need a product. Marketing distribution......death by breathing perhaps?
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Yet the tea party was very effective in providing support for an ever harder rightward turn.

I think the same strategy applied to the left would be even more effective as it would reflect the needs and desires of a much larger group of voters.
We're so far to the right (that started in the '80's) it will take that long to get back to the center again.

I'm happy when any Democrat wins, it's always the best option for me, in this ass backward state.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
edit: nobody wants to touch my question about how Sanders or Clinton would get anything passed through our current congress. Obama was blocked for 6 years.
I don't think Clinton would have been very successful at getting effective policy passed. I think she would have been similar to but slightly worse than Obama's administration because they're bought by the same donors. The best thing she had to offer was "Well, at least it's not a Republican..", meaning things like the EPA, and PP most likely wouldn't have been touched and there wouldn't be any Muslim ban. But things like campaign finance reform, single payer healthcare, infrastructure spending, etc. wouldn't have been priorities.

Sanders would have shamed both establishment Democrats and Republicans into supporting his policies because he knew he had the majority of American support on his side. We've been over the facts dozens of times, healthcare, college, foreign policy, LGBT rights, etc., on virtually every issue he has support from the majority of the American people, conservative and liberal. So you get someone like Joe Manchin voting against effective climate change policy, Sanders goes to West Virginia and has a talk with Joe about how if he doesn't get onboard, he will use all of the resources available to him to primary him in his next senate race and support his opponent. When Sanders would give interviews to the media, he would name all the Democratic congressmen who oppose his policy, then bring up how much of their political contributions came from the oil & gas industry. Either Manchin and other establishment Democrats roll over or they won't be Democratic politicians much longer. You do the same thing with Republicans.

You force it through with strong leadership from the top with a specific goal and constant political pressure from the bottom, from voters doing exactly what they've been doing protesting Trump, showing up to town halls and calling these politicians out on their lies to their face. If Sanders is out there every single day like he was during the campaign and like he still is today even though he's not running for anything, talking policy and putting political pressure on politicians who vote against the American people's interest, the American people will hear him and listen to him and all of these empty suits would have no way to defend against it.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
We're so far to the right (that started in the '80's) it will take that long to get back to the center again.

I'm happy when any Democrat wins, it's always the best option for me, in this ass backward state.
Give me some examples of ways you believe the country is "so far to the right" when it comes to what Americans support
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You can either support workers or corporations. You can't support both

This is the fundamental problem facing the establishment wing of the Democratic party; they want to court big donors, but when they do, they fail to represent their progressive base, so they abandon them

Keep taking corporate bribes and keep losing or turn to the voters and give them an actual progressive reason to vote for you
Incrementalism got us where we are today- which is far, far to the right of where this country was 20 years ago. I agree with pada in that it's a failed strategy and that it's time for something different.
You don't have a solution. I don't know why you keep talking about this.

Republicans aren't going to change campaign finance laws so, the only path for now is to stymie them and work to get them out of office.

You say Democrats won't. But Sanders is working with Democrats to do just that. The amendment to repeal Citizen's United that Bernie tried to get through congress in 2015 was voted for unanimously by Democratic Congressmen it failed on equally united GOP votes against. Last year, Clinton campaigned with repeal of Citizen's United. I don't see how your belief lines up with facts.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
I don't think Clinton would have been very successful at getting effective policy passed. I think she would have been similar to but slightly worse than Obama's administration because they're bought by the same donors. The best thing she had to offer was "Well, at least it's not a Republican..", meaning things like the EPA, and PP most likely wouldn't have been touched and there wouldn't be any Muslim ban. But things like campaign finance reform, single payer healthcare, infrastructure spending, etc. wouldn't have been priorities.

Sanders would have shamed both establishment Democrats and Republicans into supporting his policies because he knew he had the majority of American support on his side. We've been over the facts dozens of times, healthcare, college, foreign policy, LGBT rights, etc., on virtually every issue he has support from the majority of the American people, conservative and liberal. So you get someone like Joe Manchin voting against effective climate change policy, Sanders goes to West Virginia and has a talk with Joe about how if he doesn't get onboard, he will use all of the resources available to him to primary him in his next senate race and support his opponent. When Sanders would give interviews to the media, he would name all the Democratic congressmen who oppose his policy, then bring up how much of their political contributions came from the oil & gas industry. Either Manchin and other establishment Democrats roll over or they won't be Democratic politicians much longer. You do the same thing with Republicans.

You force it through with strong leadership from the top with a specific goal and constant political pressure from the bottom, from voters doing exactly what they've been doing protesting Trump, showing up to town halls and calling these politicians out on their lies to their face. If Sanders is out there every single day like he was during the campaign and like he still is today even though he's not running for anything, talking policy and putting political pressure on politicians who vote against the American people's interest, the American people will hear him and listen to him and all of these empty suits would have no way to defend against it.
It's a nice thought pada, but I don't think 'shaming' is an effective strategy.

You couldn't shame those who preach fake news. They're on an entirely different level.

You notice how many talk radio stations are conservative? People listen to and believe that shit.

As far as Manchin, he's from W.Va. isn't he? Land of the coal? I'd rather see him there than an R.

Maybe living in nice liberal Cali makes you think other states could be like that. Most republicans here call me a communist. I had a guy go insane because we had 7 Obama signs in my yard in 2012.

It's just not that easy. If it was, Trump wouldn't have squeaked through to the presidency.

On the bright side, we continue to get more votes nationally, not that it helps much. But it does prove the majority nationwide leans a little left. But those critical pockets of republicans in their gerrymandered areas continue to fuck things up.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It's a nice thought pada, but I don't think 'shaming' is an effective strategy.

You couldn't shame those who preach fake news. They're on an entirely different level.

You notice how many talk radio stations are conservative? People listen to and believe that shit.

As far as Manchin, he's from W.Va. isn't he? Land of the coal? I'd rather see him there than an R.

Maybe living in nice liberal Cali makes you think other states could be like that. Most republicans here call me a communist. I had a guy go insane because we had 7 Obama signs in my yard in 2012.

It's just not that easy. If it was, Trump wouldn't have squeaked through to the presidency.

On the bright side, we continue to get more votes nationally, not that it helps much. But it does prove the majority nationwide leans a little left. But those critical pockets of republicans in their gerrymandered areas continue to fuck things up.
Maybe Pada was one of those kids who always got what he wanted as a kid by crying?

I dunno. Learning to live with people who think and act differently than me was, I thought, part of being an adult. He's what? 29 or something? How did he get that old and retain the childish idea everybody is like himself? Or gain such an incredible sense of self confidence without any real accomplishment? From what he says, it's not as if he's a mover and shaker in his community.

I worked for a long time in big corporation. More than a hundred thousand of employees worldwide. Had to learn to work with people who didn't always agree with me. When I was wrong they helped me to the path. When they were wrong, I still had to learn what and why they thought so that I could help them. Learning to listen is an important skill. Accepting differences that don't matter is too.

you and I figured it out. It's not as simple as giving a speech, is it?
 
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