DHP Presents Citizen Cob 1812 3500k 80CRI Vs 1812 3500k 90 CRI

[Photon Flinger]

Nice.

You might be able to get even a bit faster going with 3000k CCT in flower. I started a run from seed of a few hybrids and sativa strains under 3000k 90/90 CRI Veros around the same time as this run. The hybrids first cuts are now curing and finishing the second cuts this weekend. Sativas are still going but they are 12+ weeks normally. This cycle used a 12/12 light schedule from seed to find some good clones for a proper test next run.

It could be genetics or how long each of us like to push but in the end both have faster results with the higher CRI and that is what matters. Quality is top notch and I noticed a lot more inner canopy growth which is sure to bring quite a bit more in for the extra couple of weeks.

 

[The Dawg]

It could be genetics or how long each of us like to push but in the end both have faster results with the higher CRI and that is what matters. Quality is top notch and I noticed a lot more inner canopy growth which is sure to bring quite a bit more in for the extra couple of weeks.

Faster Flowering Times Is What I'm Also Seeing With The 90 Cri. They Start Faster Which In Turns Means They Also Finish Up Faster With No Loss In Weight. I'm Not Seeing Any Gain Either Rather Just The Faster Flowering Which Makes Perfect Sense

 

[verticalgrow]

Faster Flowering Times Is What I'm Also Seeing With The 90 Cri. They Start Faster Which In Turns Means They Also Finish Up Faster With No Loss In Weight. I'm Not Seeing Any Gain Either Rather Just The Faster Flowering Which Makes Perfect Sense

 

[NoFucks2Give]

Background: 3000K 80CRI, CLU028-1204C4-303M2K1
Foreground: 2700K 97CRI, CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4

The 2700K 97 CRI had about 6.5% less PAR than the 3000K CRI 80 @ 225mA.

The datasheet scales the curves individually. Here the same scale is used for both CoBs.

The data files are attached in a CSV format.






Measurements taken with a StellarNet Blue Wave at a height of abut 6".
Each CoB was powered with a Mean Well LDD 300H.

The 3000K 80 CRI had a forward voltage of 34.17 Volts @ 290mA
The 2700K 97 CRI had a forward voltage of 33.72Volts @ 290mA

 

[JimmyJames905]

Background: 3000K 80CRI, CLU028-1204C4-303M2K1
Foreground: 2700K 97CRI, CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4

The 2700K 97 CRI had about 6.5% less PAR than the 3000K CRI 80 @ 225mA.

The datasheet scales the curves individually. Here the same scale is used for both CoBs.

The data files are attached in a CSV format.


View attachment 3946247



Measurements taken with a StellarNet Blue Wave at a height of abut 6".
Each CoB was powered with a Mean Well LDD 300H.

The 3000K 80 CRI had a forward voltage of 34.17 Volts @ 225mA
The 2700K 97 CRI had a forward voltage of 33.72Volts @ 225mA

View attachment 3946254

Looks like 25-30% more 660nm on the 97 CRI

 

[NoFucks2Give]

Looks like 25-30% more 660nm on the 97 CRI

Between 650-670nm the 2700K has 35% more.

 

[JimmyJames905]

Between 650-670nm the 2700K has 35% more.

See I tried arguing this point with a guy on another site regarding the Vero 1750k. His view was "less photons less flowering". Despite the 1750 peaking at 650 and tapering off outside the visible range.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

Vero 1750k.

I received the Vero 1750 today along with the 3000K. I will get you the data. And I have the data for the Luxeon Fresh Meat 2200K.

 

[JimmyJames905]

Sweet.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

peaking at 650

I compared the Vero 1750 C RI 90, Citi 2700 CRI 90, and Luxeon 2200. Luxeon has no CRI.

Vero: BXRC-17E4000-F-24 1750K 97 CRI
Citi: CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4 2700K 97CRI
Luxeon: L2C5-RM001211E1900 220K




The Vero peaked at 635nm, Citi @ 637nm, and Luxeon @ 643nm
The Vero 1750 Vf measured 27V the other two, 34V.
All at 290mA using the same Mean Well LDD-300H LED driver. I would mover the driver from one to the next.

All are on the same scale and the scale is the same as the previous post with the Citi 3000K 80CRI.

The Luxeon Fresh Focus Red Meat L2C5-RM001211E1900 may have been damaged. It looks like a row or two were not lit. It has overheated and had the solder melt the power leads off multiple times.

The Citi 2700 CRI 97, is so much whiter due to the small part of the curve that is a little bit higher than the other two in the green region.. Keeping in mind the eye multiples green by 4x over red and 10x over blue.

It appears the Luxeon Red Meat is the big winner. It had a PAR flux about the same as 12 Deep Red (658nm) and 4 Deep Blue (451nm) Luxeon Rebel LEDs on a 12" strip with a Forward Voltage of 35.5V.

Took pictures of each reflecting off a white sheet of paper (97 bright).

 

[Jimmyclone42]

Very good info here Nofucks, where'd u find those luxeon meat chips? Solid data right here..
Cheers

 

[CobKits]

can you normalize those spectra? thanks

hard to call any of them a "big winner" - depends what youre going for i suppose

who says that extra white spectra is not of benefit? if reds and blues were everything wed all be using blurples instead of white cobs. the 90 cri citis not in your test def have a pink/orangish hue kinda between your pink cobs and white cobs)

 

[CobKits]

 

[JimmyJames905]

I compared the Vero 1750 C RI 90, Citi 2700 CRI 90, and Luxeon 2200. Luxeon has no CRI.

Vero: BXRC-17E4000-F-24 1750K 97 CRI
Citi: CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4 2700K 97CRI
Luxeon: L2C5-RM001211E1900 220K

View attachment 3946358


The Vero peaked at 635nm, Citi @ 637nm, and Luxeon @ 643nm
The Vero 1750 Vf measured 27V the other two, 34V.
All at 290mA using the same Mean Well LDD-300H LED driver. I would mover the driver from one to the next.

All are on the same scale and the scale is the same as the previous post with the Citi 3000K 80CRI.

The Luxeon Fresh Focus Red Meat L2C5-RM001211E1900 may have been damaged. It looks like a row or two were not lit. It has overheated and had the solder melt the power leads off multiple times.

The Citi 2700 CRI 97, is so much whiter due to the small part of the curve that is a little bit higher than the other two in the green region.. Keeping in mind the eye multiples green by 4x over red and 10x over blue.

It appears the Luxeon Red Meat is the big winner. It had a PAR flux about the same as 12 Deep Red (658nm) and 4 Deep Blue (451nm) Luxeon Rebel LEDs on a 12" strip with a Forward Voltage of 35.5V.

Took pictures of each reflecting off a white sheet of paper (97 bright).

View attachment 3946386

THis is great data. I run the 1750 V18 at 1050mA so the results might be a little different. And I use them in combination with "white" chips.
I have 50 of the 1750k coming in on the Vero 29 D Series on May 24. I might consider sending you one for testing. Your data is much more precise than mine. Lol.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3949401/

can you normalize those spectra?

What do you mean by "normalize"? These graphs are the PAR values at each wavelength when driven with a 290mA current. The purpose was to show the difference in flux at the same current and distance to the photon detector.

who says that extra white spectra is not of benefit?

I have seen a number of research papers that refer to white as inefficient, with unnecessary wavelengths. I do not agree with that but it is very clear deep red is the go to wavelength.

Plants grow fine under white light I will not dispute that. The research is very strong when it comes to deep red in the 650-690nm range. Most white LEDs lack the deep red wavelengths.

The LEDs I profiled above were the few I found with sufficient deep red wavelengths.

The benefits of the wavelengths between blue and red need more research. In a recent study BR and Yellow did better than BR and sunlight. Green, so far, has been found to be of benefit in limited uses and rarely preforms well with BR..

The majority of research indicates deep red is the most effective with some deep blue.

The photosynthesis rate is highest at deep red and deep blue.



When you buy a grow light you want the most bang for the buck. The bottom half of the above chart clearly shows the Photosynthesis Rate is highest with Deep Blue and Deep Red. That is where you put your money.

If you look at the big budget indoor farms, most of them have a magenta glow to them. Lettuce grows well under white florescent combined with BR in various growth stages. These big indoor farms have a big budget to get the most efficient. When they buy LED fixtures they are almost always Red and Blue.

I asked Professor Dr. T.A. Colquhoun who leads LED horticulture research at the University of Florida, "What colors would you recommend for a grow light?" and he replied "Deep Blue and Deep Red have always worked well for us".

I also asked Dr. Colquhoun if the McCree study is still valid today. He replied it does.

The attached PDF The Guiding Force of Photons.pdf was written ten years ago by Dr. Kevin Folta who is regarded as a preeminent authority in horticulture research:

The hallmark photoreversiblity is achieved from switching phytochromes between two conformational states. In darkness, phytochromes exist in a form known as Pr. This form is biologically inactive and has an absorption peak of approximately 660 nm.​

The attached paper titled ON THE ACTION SPECTRA OF PHOTOSYNTHESIS AND SPECTRAL DEPENDENCE OF THE QUANTUM EFFICIENCY:

The quantum efficiency showed a decrease after 695 nm (“red drop”) and before 650 nm.
The curve showed also a higher efficiency of the quanta absorbed by chlorophyll band the formation of a maximum
at 650 nm.​

The attached Plant responses to red and far-red lights, applications in horticulture.pdf has a table (Table 1) summarizing about 100 studies of horticulture lighting.

 

[NoFucks2Give]

I run the 1750 V18 at 1050mA so the results might be a little different

I used low current to avoid the effect of temperature which is dependent on thermal management.
I wanted to see the wall watt to quantum photon efficiency, that is why I included the forward voltages.
Earlier I had said the Vero 1750 looked like a "better deal" than the Luxeon Red Meat based on price and datasheet. That no longer looks to be true.

 

[JimmyJames905]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3949401/


What do you mean by "normalize"? These graphs are the PAR values at each wavelength when driven with a 290mA current. The purpose was to show the difference in flux at the same current and distance to the photon detector.



I have seen a number of research papers that refer to white as inefficient, with unnecessary wavelengths. I do not agree with that but it is very clear deep red is the go to wavelength.

Plants grow fine under white light I will not dispute that. The research is very strong when it comes to deep red in the 650-690nm range. Most white LEDs lack the deep red wavelengths.

The LEDs I profiled above were the few I found with sufficient deep red wavelengths.

The benefits of the wavelengths between blue and red need more research. In a recent study BR and Yellow did better than BR and sunlight. Green, so far, has been found to be of benefit in limited uses and rarely preforms well with BR..

The majority of research indicates deep red is the most effective with some deep blue.

The photosynthesis rate is highest at deep red and deep blue.

View attachment 3946528

When you buy a grow light you want the most bang for the buck. The bottom half of the above chart clearly shows the Photosynthesis Rate is highest with Deep Blue and Deep Red. That is where you put your money.

If you look at the big budget indoor farms, most of them have a magenta glow to them. Lettuce grows well under white florescent combined with BR in various growth stages. These big indoor farms have a big budget to get the most efficient. When they buy LED fixtures they are almost always Red and Blue.

I asked Professor Dr. T.A. Colquhoun who leads LED horticulture research at the University of Florida, "What colors would you recommend for a grow light?" and he replied "Deep Blue and Deep Red have always worked well for us".

I also asked Dr. Colquhoun if the McCree study is still valid today. He replied it does.

The attached PDF The Guiding Force of Photons.pdf was written ten years ago by Dr. Kevin Folta who is regarded as a preeminent authority in horticulture research:

The hallmark photoreversiblity is achieved from switching phytochromes between two conformational states. In darkness, phytochromes exist in a form known as Pr. This form is biologically inactive and has an absorption peak of approximately 660 nm.​

The attached paper titled ON THE ACTION SPECTRA OF PHOTOSYNTHESIS AND SPECTRAL DEPENDENCE OF THE QUANTUM EFFICIENCY:

The quantum efficiency showed a decrease after 695 nm (“red drop”) and before 650 nm.
The curve showed also a higher efficiency of the quanta absorbed by chlorophyll band the formation of a maximum
at 650 nm.​

The attached Plant responses to red and far-red lights, applications in horticulture.pdf has a table (Table 1) summarizing about 100 studies of horticulture lighting.

I always push the deep reds. Unfortunately I get two types of clients. Those that only want Cree and those that want to put 1000w of LED cob in a 3x3 tent. Lol

 

[tomate]

What do you mean by "normalize"?

I think what cobby ment is that each graph should be aligned that it peaks at 100% on the y-axis.

 

[3GT]

Thank for your contributions rat the luxeon red meat is out of my price range with my fixture having so many strips/cobs run soft, do you think these BXRC-27H1000-B-23 (2700k 97cri) would be worth it at about $5 a chip or save and get the luxeon red meat?

Cheers

 

[NoFucks2Give]

cri citis not in your test def have a pink/orangish

The 2700K 97 CRI citi appeared to have a pink glow that did not show well in the photo.

I buy CoBs as heat sources for thermal experiments so the light quality does not matter. I just thought I'd find additional uses for them.

The Citi have been problematic in that I am always changing the LED driver so use a quick connect/disconnect jumper. That did not work well as the power contacts are breaking off. I received four Citi CLU028-1204C4-273H7K4 on May 11th, and two of the four have a broken contact. Whereas the Luxeon L2C5-RM001211E1900 I received on Feb 1st and Feb 18th, are still working after much abuse. I will not be buying any more Citi.