Anyone else celebrating our small success? BAILOUT FAILS IN HOUSE.

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
Boy that was close.. and Pelosi going onto the floor to switch votes over- PATHETIC. The news is all one sided now blaming people for why it didn't pass.. they're going to try to pass this again for sure..

I am celebrating our small victory here though- hold stead, this isn't over.

Back to the phones, got Congress aids to call and bitch at.. ABSOLUTELY NO BAILOUTS FOR WALLSTREET. :fire:
 

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
It's a HUGE success. Socialism was defeated in congress, for once.
Only reason I said small is because they're getting ready as quickly as possible to ram another version of the bailout through.. it's not over yet.. but a surprising success!! You better believe after all the calls the Congressmen have gotten they are scared to vote for it.. :fire: They should be..

Anyways, cookie party at my place tonite!! Woo whoo.

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Thank you to tall the Congressmen who voted HELL NO to the bailout.. nice to see them doing their job for a change..
 

desertrat

Well-Known Member
all it takes is one look at the stock market today to see that the bailout is not solely about wall street. there are going to be lots of regular people who will lose their life savings and their jobs if there isn;t something done to remove the overhang of bad paper in our financial system.

imagine 10% unemployment and inflation. it could get really ugly. naked capitalism is not something this country is prepared for or has had for over 70 years. if you don;t let the socialists fix it now the fix will be much more onerous down the line.

be practical guys. this stuff really counts.
 

ccodiane

New Member
all it takes is one look at the stock market today to see that the bailout is not solely about wall street. there are going to be lots of regular people who will lose their life savings and their jobs if there isn;t something done to remove the overhang of bad paper in our financial system.

imagine 10% unemployment and inflation. it could get really ugly. naked capitalism is not something this country is prepared for or has had for over 70 years. if you don;t let the socialists fix it now the fix will be much more onerous down the line.

be practical guys. this stuff really counts.
Dude, you're 185 days too early......try again then.
 

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
Yea.. sure, inflation and making everyone's dollar worth less is going to fix this? LOL.. please..:roll: it will only delay the problem and make it worse

Bad business decisions cause problems, yes, people will lose money, yes- but propping up bad business decisions by just printing more money is even worse..
 

desertrat

Well-Known Member
Dude, you're 185 days too early......try again then.
guess i would be more willing to do that if my life savings weren't evaporating before my eyes. and if i didn't sincerely believe that any cure down the line will be even more socialistic in practice and tone. do you really want some lib pointing to a deep recession, stock market failure, housing meltdown, high inflation and unemployment and saying that in the interests of the country all strategic industries will be nationalized?

sometimes you need to fight a tactical battle to get what you eventually want. it is no time to promote free market principles when the general perception is that those principles got us in this situation. the time to make those arguments was earlier, showing that it was the free market perverted by government intervention that was causing the coming crisis. repubs lost the high ground by not making it a big issue and insisting that the economy was on solid ground.
 

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
Those pieces of shyt! the Fed is pumping money into the global economy no matter what we say.. surprise surprise.. Our dollar value is going to keep skidding down hill at this rate of just printing fiat money..

Fed Pumps Further $630 Billion Into Financial System (Update3)
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide
 

UnderPhire

Well-Known Member
rofl just heard that if they win the election, palin has a 1/5 chance of becoming president due to death of old age of mccain
 

UnderPhire

Well-Known Member
-moved from t n' t

rofl.... you made your bed, now sleep in it. When there are problems on main street its not a federal problem, business is business, if the larger mortgage companies bit off more they can chew then r.i.p Serves them right for taking advantage of a crippled economy with low rates, bottom line people got house loans that should not have, now they can't pay, not our problem, it's yours.

 

UnderPhire

Well-Known Member
Irrelevant imo ^. But i'm not about to argue with a fellow smoker. I'll agree to disagree. But for sake of debate, i'm guessing your voting republican?
 

ViRedd

New Member
I'm hoping that some REAL statesmen will stand before the Congress/Senate and tell the freaking truth for a change.

I'm happy the bill didn't pass. Its time for Americans to wake up to the the real worth of paper investments; investments made with paper money and paper credit.

It looks to me as though there were several Democrats and a larger number of Republicans in Congress who grew a couple of Palins today.

Vi
 

Bongulator

Well-Known Member
If they don't pass this bailout, and you work for someone else (a company, a boss, whatever), then your job is in great jeopardy. Plan accordingly.

I was thinking, you know who is going to do fine no matter what? If we don't do something to alleviate the pain by reigniting the credit markets, and everything goes to hell, no jobs, no credit for homes or cars or municipal improvements or student loans or anything, one group that will absolutely be fine are the Amish. I shit you not. They don't need utilities, they build their own homes and barns and stuff, they're not dependent on credit, they have their own transportation that doesn't require gas, and they grow their own food.

Basically, if we pass this bill, we'll still suffer a recession. If we don't, it may be WAY worse than that. The ripple effects are already beginning, and spreading. As businesses shut down, people lose their jobs. Unemployment grows, and the people who WERE paying their mortgage, now suddenly out of a job, default on theirs, making things worse. As more people are unemployed, there is less need for as many businesses, so more go out of business, dumping more people on the street. And on and on it could go, a vicious cycle.

This has happened before in Sweden and Japan. Both countries, like ours, had no real choice but to let the government step in and bail things out with taxpayer dollars. But the results were completely different.

In Sweden, they acted QUICKLY, nationalized a few banks, bought up defaulted mortgages. Then over five years they sold all that stuff as their economy recovered. In the end, Sweden's taxpayers kicked ass on their bailout investment, and they are roaring along just fine now. They still have part of one bank left to sell, and they're asking about $45 billion for it. The total cost of their bailout was $10 billion. They made huge profit on their bailout.

Japan waited much longer to react to the problem. The result of being slow to do anything caused them to drop into a huge recession that lasted most of a decade. They call it 'the lost 90s' or 'the lost decade'. Their cost was $170-ish billion, and they didn't get much of that back. Even today, Japan's economy STILL hasn't recovered to 1994 levels.

So, the question isn't, do we have to do something. Of course we do. If we don't, we're basically laying down in a grave and helping shovel dirt over ourselves. The question is which model do we follow: Sweden's (act quickly) or Japan's (act slowly). How quickly we react and get this bill passed will dictate whether we're in a recession for 2 years, or if even after 15 or 20 years we still haven't recovered. Heck, we might not EVER recover if we don't do anything.
 

SomeGuy

Well-Known Member
Heck, we might not EVER recover if we don't do anything.

Personally I think it is about time the people said NO to this kind of shit. I am starting to think this is exactly what we need. Perhaps it will change corporate America for the better. We need to stop bailing out these greedy little ass hats. NONE of the politicians or CEOs care about us. They care about money and power. Ive lost LOTS of money on this thing in my retirement fund and so have others I know and there is no way I would back this bailout regardless. I think the message was pretty clear in the vote this morning, a lot of people are fed up.
 

Bongulator

Well-Known Member
You'll lose a whole lot more out of your retirement fund if nothing is done. That's the whole point: to protect the people. It's ancillary that some companies will benefit too.

I personally have no vested stake in this, so I'm pretty objective. I hate the idea of bailouts, but I also hate the idea of losing our superpower status, maybe permanently, and plunging into 10-20 years of economic doldrums. Neither option is particularly appealing, but the bailout seems the least harmful. If we do it quickly and wisely, as Sweden did when they had a very similar problem, then we (the taxpayers) could make money on the deal. Maybe a lot, although as a percentage we wouldn't do as well as Sweden at this point, because we're reacting rather slowly and Sweden reacted quickly. Japan reacted slowly when they had a very similar problem, and they're still worse off than they were 15 years ago.

Either way, I am definitely planning for the worst. No matter what, we seem destined for a recession. Without some speedy liquidity injection, we'll probably end up something like Japan did, ten years or so of pain. With no liquidity injection at all, who knows, we might end up a second-rate country forever.
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Only reason I said small is because they're getting ready as quickly as possible to ram another version of the bailout through.. it's not over yet.. but a surprising success!! You better believe after all the calls the Congressmen have gotten they are scared to vote for it.. :fire: They should be..

Anyways, cookie party at my place tonite!! Woo whoo.

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Thank you to tall the Congressmen who voted HELL NO to the bailout.. nice to see them doing their job for a change..
Ha! You could be our daughter, you know that? That's the FIRST thing I said when Dave told me (I was getting my therapeutic massage when the news broke, I didn't find out til I got home and called him). :D

Thank you to all the people who really could be arsed!
all it takes is one look at the stock market today to see that the bailout is not solely about wall street. there are going to be lots of regular people who will lose their life savings and their jobs if there isn;t something done to remove the overhang of bad paper in our financial system.

imagine 10% unemployment and inflation. it could get really ugly. naked capitalism is not something this country is prepared for or has had for over 70 years. if you don;t let the socialists fix it now the fix will be much more onerous down the line.

be practical guys. this stuff really counts.
For me, it is being practical.

For me, it is impractical for the Secretary of the Treasury to gain new powers to acquire assets with no oversight.

For me it is impractical to simply come up with a number of dollars to throw at a problem without a real plan, with real caveats, for ensuring this bonanza isn't abused, misused, or misspent.

So, for me, despite knowing that, no matter what, something is going to give, I feel that pragmatism is of utmost importance and acting in haste with the usual American tactic of thinking that throwing money at a problem is going to solve it could not be more anathema to the ideas of pragmatism and practicality.
If they don't pass this bailout, and you work for someone else (a company, a boss, whatever), then your job is in great jeopardy. Plan accordingly.

I was thinking, you know who is going to do fine no matter what? If we don't do something to alleviate the pain by reigniting the credit markets, and everything goes to hell, no jobs, no credit for homes or cars or municipal improvements or student loans or anything, one group that will absolutely be fine are the Amish. I shit you not. They don't need utilities, they build their own homes and barns and stuff, they're not dependent on credit, they have their own transportation that doesn't require gas, and they grow their own food.

Basically, if we pass this bill, we'll still suffer a recession. If we don't, it may be WAY worse than that. The ripple effects are already beginning, and spreading. As businesses shut down, people lose their jobs. Unemployment grows, and the people who WERE paying their mortgage, now suddenly out of a job, default on theirs, making things worse. As more people are unemployed, there is less need for as many businesses, so more go out of business, dumping more people on the street. And on and on it could go, a vicious cycle.

This has happened before in Sweden and Japan. Both countries, like ours, had no real choice but to let the government step in and bail things out with taxpayer dollars. But the results were completely different.

In Sweden, they acted QUICKLY, nationalized a few banks, bought up defaulted mortgages. Then over five years they sold all that stuff as their economy recovered. In the end, Sweden's taxpayers kicked ass on their bailout investment, and they are roaring along just fine now. They still have part of one bank left to sell, and they're asking about $45 billion for it. The total cost of their bailout was $10 billion. They made huge profit on their bailout.

Japan waited much longer to react to the problem. The result of being slow to do anything caused them to drop into a huge recession that lasted most of a decade. They call it 'the lost 90s' or 'the lost decade'. Their cost was $170-ish billion, and they didn't get much of that back. Even today, Japan's economy STILL hasn't recovered to 1994 levels.

So, the question isn't, do we have to do something. Of course we do. If we don't, we're basically laying down in a grave and helping shovel dirt over ourselves. The question is which model do we follow: Sweden's (act quickly) or Japan's (act slowly). How quickly we react and get this bill passed will dictate whether we're in a recession for 2 years, or if even after 15 or 20 years we still haven't recovered. Heck, we might not EVER recover if we don't do anything.
I actually agree with most of what you say, however, and this is a big however, I don't think that you mean to imply that Sweden simply acted in haste without giving proper thought to how their bail-out was to be handled, do you? I think there's likely more to the picture with both these example countries, although I know nothing of the individual situations. I still think there's more than meets the eye, and would like further details of how they framed and implemented their plans.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
guess i would be more willing to do that if my life savings weren't evaporating before my eyes. and if i didn't sincerely believe that any cure down the line will be even more socialistic in practice and tone. do you really want some lib pointing to a deep recession, stock market failure, housing meltdown, high inflation and unemployment and saying that in the interests of the country all strategic industries will be nationalized?

sometimes you need to fight a tactical battle to get what you eventually want. it is no time to promote free market principles when the general perception is that those principles got us in this situation. the time to make those arguments was earlier, showing that it was the free market perverted by government intervention that was causing the coming crisis. repubs lost the high ground by not making it a big issue and insisting that the economy was on solid ground.
Life is a bitch, desertrat, but I know the feeling. I'm getting bent over and raped in the markets, but I figure as long as I'm buying, maybe there's a random chance that after 7 years of misery I'll emerge in a stronger position.

Of course, it helps that my perception is that the economy is really just fine. People are still working (except wall st people), and for the most part people are still buying (consumers.... :: shrugs :: ) so it is still functioning. Yeah, a lot of people are slowing down their purchasing, but who's to say that that's necessarily a bad thing. This country needs more savings, and less debt.

More savings at a lower and middle class level any way. The rich have mountains of cash, but I don't see any need to take their cash, nor any justification for it. I would like to have mountains of cash one day too, (and a Silo filled with stock certificates to go swimming in would be bloody awesome, as long as they are still worth something :-) ).

Besides, we have to swallow the fact that we can't borrow our way out of trouble sooner or later, and frankly, I'd rather it be sooner.
 
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