Are there any smart Trump supporters?

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
You can't even explain how someone could determine if a person under the age of 18 has developed the wherewithal to give consent, so how could you possibly determine if anyone has been harmed by having their consent that you have no way of determining is legitimate delegitimized?

Yes, 'if' they can, but how can someone determine the 'if' part? You yourself argue the wherewithal to give consent arrives at different people at different ages, so how is any third party to know for sure if that moment has arrived for a 16 year old that engages in sex with a 30 year old? Are we just expected to take the 16 year old's word for it? How do we know he/she wasn't coerced into it by the 30 year old?

It's likely different for different people, just as you say, but by having no legal definition (18 ), there is no way to prosecute those individuals that coerce kids into things through manipulative means.

So what's worse, in your opinion; A. a 17 year old who has developed the wherewithal to give their consent being restricted until they turn 18 from the things their consent requires, or B. a 16 year old who has not developed the wherewithal to give their consent being coerced into sex by an adult?
Your first paragraph amounts to an admission that you are willing to deny SOME people the right of self determination, even those who clearly possess the wherewithal to self determine.

The rest of your post attempts to justify your extinguishing of at least SOME peoples rights.

I understand the fundamental difference between is that you think in the collective and I think of ALL individuals as possessing rights.



If you oppose coercion so much, how is it that you embrace coercion when it is the OPERATIONAL FOUNDATION of
government ?

It is an absolute given that by using coercion as your primary tool, you can't then eliminate it.

In your example, BOTH parties, the 17 year old who is denied a right and the 16 year old who is assaulted are victims.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Peace.
 
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Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Your first paragraph amounts to an admission that you are willing to deny SOME people the right of self determination, even those who clearly possess the wherewithal to self determine.

The rest of your post attempts to justify your extinguishing of at least SOME peoples rights.

I understand the fundamental difference between is that you think in the collective and I think of ALL individuals as possessing rights.



If you oppose coercion so much, how is it that you embrace coercion when it is the OPERATIONAL FOUNDATION of
government ?

It is an absolute given that by using coercion as your primary tool, you can't then eliminate it.

In your example, BOTH parties, the 17 year old who is denied a right and the 16 year old who is assaulted are victims.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Peace.
Why can't you answer direct questions with direct answers?


-How could you determine if anyone has been harmed by having their consent that you have no way of determining is legitimate delegitimized?

That's a question, answer that

-You yourself argue the wherewithal to give consent arrives at different people at different ages, so how is any third party to know for sure if that moment has arrived for a 16 year old that engages in sex with a 30 year old? Are we just expected to take the 16 year old's word for it? How do we know he/she wasn't coerced into it by the 30 year old?

There's another one, let's see if you can answer that

What's worse, in your opinion;

A. a 17 year old who has developed the wherewithal to give their consent being restricted until they turn 18 from the things their consent requires

B. a 16 year old who has not developed the wherewithal to give their consent being coerced into sex by an adult?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
i call a lot of people delusional, as in they have a flimsy grasp on reality, but i think rob roy may have a clinical condition, like a god complex or something.

once my wife gets home i will describe his symptomology to her and see what knd of disease she thinks he may have.
 

Blunted 4 lyfe

Well-Known Member
i call a lot of people delusional, as in they have a flimsy grasp on reality, but i think rob roy may have a clinical condition, like a god complex or something.

once my wife gets home i will describe his symptomology to her and see what knd of disease she thinks he may have.
Don't bother, Rob Roy just wants to fuck 10 year olds anytime he feels like it.

N4L
 

DutchKillsRambo

Well-Known Member
I finally met my first real life Trump supporter last night, and it wasn't who I would have expected.

I was pretty drunk at the hotel having a smoke outside with the night manager, and earlier in the night I had called the Trump hotline because well, I was drunk and wanted to fuck with a campaign organizer on the phone. I never got through and gave up shortly, but the whole recording was pretty damn funny.

Anyway, I brought it up outside with the manager, and he said basically "well I support him because something has to be done about Muslim terrorism." This was a Black guy, mid-20's, with a decent job, otherwise pretty normal and cool dude. Not who I would have guessed honestly.

I lasted about 2 minutes of trying to tell him literally everything in your life is more dangerous than Islam unless you live in Syria, but then gave up. He was obstinate in the belief Islamic fuckbags are the biggest threat to America, and I'm sure that view is far from unique.

Then I got the shits because for some reason I ate at Applebee's, but there was seriously fuck all to eat in the vast wastelands of CNY.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
i call a lot of people delusional, as in they have a flimsy grasp on reality, but i think rob roy may have a clinical condition, like a god complex or something.

once my wife gets home i will describe his symptomology to her and see what knd of disease she thinks he may have.

A person such as yourself who believes in two opposing things at once, will always be troubled by people like me, who point out the inconsistency of that.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Why can't you answer direct questions with direct answers?


-How could you determine if anyone has been harmed by having their consent that you have no way of determining is legitimate delegitimized?

That's a question, answer that

-You yourself argue the wherewithal to give consent arrives at different people at different ages, so how is any third party to know for sure if that moment has arrived for a 16 year old that engages in sex with a 30 year old? Are we just expected to take the 16 year old's word for it? How do we know he/she wasn't coerced into it by the 30 year old?

There's another one, let's see if you can answer that

What's worse, in your opinion;

A. a 17 year old who has developed the wherewithal to give their consent being restricted until they turn 18 from the things their consent requires

B. a 16 year old who has not developed the wherewithal to give their consent being coerced into sex by an adult?



1) First, I'd want a consistent definition and description of what "harm" is and further who can make that claim and what is their basis ? I'd say in the context of this particular conversation harm occurs when one party(or parties) acts as if they are the authority for another persons choices. So, that's the first thing I'd review, to see if that happened or not, if I were arbitrating a dispute between an alleged assailant and a person claiming victim status.

Why would I be involved in other peoples business is the followup question to you? Why is it MY business, to decide what other people do ? Isn't the onus on the person claiming victim status to present their unique case to show whether they were victimized or not ?

2) Was force or duress involved would be a good place to start. Why is a third party involved in the first place....did somebody invite them, or did they intervene forcibly?

3) What's worse? The worst thing is to believe as you do that there must be a choice BETWEEN the two and those two choices are the ONLY choices and that the solution lies in one of those choices. I find neither of those choices acceptable, as both deprive a person of something and potentially create a victim.

So, the answer is "none of the above".

Sometimes when a simple answer will suffice, you reject my answer as impractical. So, here's a blank statement for you , "choosing the lesser of two evils, is still choosing evil".
 

FauxRoux

Well-Known Member
Why can't you answer direct questions with direct answers?


-How could you determine if anyone has been harmed by having their consent that you have no way of determining is legitimate delegitimized?

That's a question, answer that

-You yourself argue the wherewithal to give consent arrives at different people at different ages, so how is any third party to know for sure if that moment has arrived for a 16 year old that engages in sex with a 30 year old? Are we just expected to take the 16 year old's word for it? How do we know he/she wasn't coerced into it by the 30 year old?

There's another one, let's see if you can answer that

What's worse, in your opinion;

A. a 17 year old who has developed the wherewithal to give their consent being restricted until they turn 18 from the things their consent requires

B. a 16 year old who has not developed the wherewithal to give their consent being coerced into sex by an adult?
I've asked that about 6 times too....it always gets responded to with "then you support coercion". Never touching on how the distinction is to be made.

1) First, I'd want a consistent definition and description of what "harm" is and further who can make that claim and what is their basis ? I'd say in the context of this particular conversation harm occurs when one party(or parties) acts as if they are the authority for another persons choices. So, that's the first thing I'd review, to see if that happened or not, if I were arbitrating a dispute between an alleged assailant and a person claiming victim status.

Why would I be involved in other peoples business is the followup question to you? Why is it MY business, to decide what other people do ? Isn't the onus on the person claiming victim status to present their unique case to show whether they were victimized or not ?

2) Was force or duress involved would be a good place to start. Why is a third party involved in the first place....did somebody invite them, or did they intervene forcibly?

3) What's worse? The worst thing is to believe as you do that there must be a choice BETWEEN the two and those two choices are the ONLY choices and that the solution lies in one of those choices. I find neither of those choices acceptable, as both deprive a person of something and potentially create a victim.

So, the answer is "none of the above".

Sometimes when a simple answer will suffice, you reject my answer as impractical. So, here's a blank statement for you , "choosing the lesser of two evils, is still choosing evil".
You would be faaar better off simply saying its your ideal and you have no idea how it would work. Because quite frankly your attempts to dodge the question and still stay relevant in the conversation are....well...not so great. An admition there would help you retain some semblance of credibility.

Your answers are clearly made of simple avoidance. If you are incapable of defining even the basest of nuances that your entire world view relys on then it couldn't have been very important to you in the first place as you clearly haven't put much thought into it.

And not to be rude.....but this is starting to sound more and more like someone regurgitating someone else's manifesto that the reader didn't fully grasp. Or at least a reader not objective enough to notice the inconsistencies in the logic before pontificating the message.
 
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Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I've asked that about 6 times too....it always gets responded to with "then you support coercion". Never touching on how the distinction is to be made.


You would be faaar better off simply saying its your ideal and you have no idea how it would work. Because quite frankly your attempts to dodge the answer and still stay relevant in the conversation are....well...not so great. An admition there would help you retain some semblance of credibility.

Your answers are clearly made of simple avoidence. If you are incapable of defining even the basest of nuances that your entire world view relys on then it clearly wasnt very important to you in the first place as you clerely haven't put much thought into it.

http://voluntaryist.com/


I don't NEED to know how to run your life. I only NEED to know, it's not my business to, the rest follows that....
 

FauxRoux

Well-Known Member
http://voluntaryist.com/


I don't NEED to know how to run your life. I only NEED to know, it's not my business to, the rest follows that....
But you NEED to know where me running my life ends and you attempting to run my life begins to know the distinction in the first place. (Or in the case of a child more specifically).

Understand?

It requires an awareness in "other" then yourself....of where those lines are in order to respect them.

And even if YOU would? Not everyone else will.

Period.

I'm glad you're a moral person. Not everyone is and that's who laws are made for. ( well....sigh....mostly...)

But since you are incapable of showing your work and your whole world view really boils down to just another cult type belief system based on a principle of faith over logic....its kind of a moot point.

I hope a version of what you believe IS someday possible. I would just prefer personal accountability to play a role in it. Cause what you suggest seems to omit every opportunity for it though lack of definition.

I'll sum up your world view simply.

Individual liberty = no external control = better world.

That's only slightly better then....... Underpants = ? = money.....

P.S...yes I looked at the site. What I'm asking for is what THE SITE claims its for. Namely.... "Statement of Purpose: Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society"...

There is no strategy in what you propose. That's our whole issue here. You suggest an ideal end result with no tangible (or even basic explanation) as to how we get there.

So if this is your goal? "Voluntaryists seek to delegitimize the State through education".

We're all ears...educate us. And by educate I mean teach me through logical discourse and proven works. Show me a well thought out alternative to the current system I can join and make a difference with.

Otherwise how are you any better then the average politician spouting idealism with no follow through? Because I require MORE then good intentions to follow something.

I'm no sheep. Not for any politician, or religious leader or even the well intentioned activist.

I....require....more.
 
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Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
But you NEED to know where me running my life ends and you attempting to run my life begins to know the distinction in the first place. (Or in the case of a child more specifically).

Understand?

It requires an awareness in "other" then yourself....of where those lines are in order to respect them.

And even if YOU would? Not everyone else will.

Period.

I'm glad you're a moral person. Not everyone is and that's who laws are made for. ( well....sigh....mostly...)

But since you are incapable of showing your work and your whole world view really boils down to just another cult type belief system based on a principle of faith over logic....its kind of a moot point.

I hope a version of what you believe IS someday possible. I would just prefer personal accountability to play a role in it. Cause what you suggest seems to omit every opportunity for it though lack of definition.

I'll sum up your world view simply.

Individual liberty = no external control = better world.

That's only slightly better then....... Underpants = ? = money.....

Thank you for confirming that voluntary human interactions are better than involuntary ones.

If you get the time, perhaps you'll browse the voluntaryist website.


External controls are not so good. Defined boundaries which facilitate peace for individuals usually are. Therein lies the answer. Peace.
 

FauxRoux

Well-Known Member
Thank you for confirming that voluntary human interactions are better than involuntary ones.

If you get the time, perhaps you'll browse the voluntaryist website.


External controls are not so good. Defined boundaries which facilitate peace for individuals usually are. Therein lies the answer. Peace.
I edited my above post to address your "website" before your response....

I'm a little dissapointed by your broken record and its utter lack of substance.

Its shit like this that tanked nearly every meaningful movement in the u.s. over the 20th century.

I appreciate your passion, now go do the homework.

External controls are not so good. Defined boundaries which facilitate peace for individuals usually are. Therein lies the answer. Peace.
Hmmm...defined boundaries huh? Sounds like a system I'm already familiar with...:wink:
 
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Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
1) First, I'd want a consistent definition and description of what "harm" is and further who can make that claim and what is their basis ? I'd say in the context of this particular conversation harm occurs when one party(or parties) acts as if they are the authority for another persons choices. So, that's the first thing I'd review, to see if that happened or not, if I were arbitrating a dispute between an alleged assailant and a person claiming victim status.
In order to reach the conclusion that any harm has been committed by restricting someone's consent, you need a way to determine if a person has developed the wherewithal to give their consent. That is what I'm asking you, how do you objectively determine that?

You can't say whether or not someone was harmed by having their consent restricted until you can figure out if they're even able to give their consent to begin with, so how do you figure that out?
Why would I be involved in other peoples business is the followup question to you? Why is it MY business, to decide what other people do ? Isn't the onus on the person claiming victim status to present their unique case to show whether they were victimized or not ?
We're talking about the age of consent, so this is an issue that has to do with young people who cannot give their consent and adults who can and the line between them. For the younger people who cannot give their consent, other people, namely - parents - are legally responsible for them, it is their job to decide what they do until they can legally decide for themselves. We are not talking about controlling what anyone does who can legally decide for themselves what to do, since kids can't, that's how it has to work. There's a reason 10 year old kids don't get to pick what's for dinner.

The reason kids can't legally give their consent until they're 18 is because it has been determined by medical science and research the age when all or most parts of the brain a person needs to understand all the nuances of consent have developed, and they have at least 18 years of life experience. Now you can argue with that number all you want, I would love to read your research that shows a different number is better. But if you can't show that, then you have no basis to argue 18 is any better or worse than 10, which I think is why you can't answer these questions directly.

2) Was force or duress involved would be a good place to start. Why is a third party involved in the first place....did somebody invite them, or did they intervene forcibly?
How can you determine if force or duress was involved if you can't determine if the 16 year old can give their consent?

Say the third party was the 16 year old's parents, they caught their kid with a 30 year old having sex in their room. The father want's to press charges, but the 16 year old said it was all consentual. Does the father have any legal course of action to take against the 30 year old?

3) What's worse? The worst thing is to believe as you do that there must be a choice BETWEEN the two and those two choices are the ONLY choices and that the solution lies in one of those choices. I find neither of those choices acceptable, as both deprive a person of something and potentially create a victim.

So, the answer is "none of the above".

Sometimes when a simple answer will suffice, you reject my answer as impractical. So, here's a blank statement for you , "choosing the lesser of two evils, is still choosing evil".
I asked you what's 'worse', you can think they're both bad if you want, I'm asking you which one you think is worse?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
In order to reach the conclusion that any harm has been committed by restricting someone's consent, you need a way to determine if a person has developed the wherewithal to give their consent. That is what I'm asking you, how do you objectively determine that?

You can't say whether or not someone was harmed by having their consent restricted until you can figure out if they're even able to give their consent to begin with, so how do you figure that out?
We're talking about the age of consent, so this is an issue that has to do with young people who cannot give their consent and adults who can and the line between them. For the younger people who cannot give their consent, other people, namely - parents - are legally responsible for them, it is their job to decide what they do until they can legally decide for themselves. We are not talking about controlling what anyone does who can legally decide for themselves what to do, since kids can't, that's how it has to work. There's a reason 10 year old kids don't get to pick what's for dinner.

The reason kids can't legally give their consent until they're 18 is because it has been determined by medical science and research the age when all or most parts of the brain a person needs to understand all the nuances of consent have developed, and they have at least 18 years of life experience. Now you can argue with that number all you want, I would love to read your research that shows a different number is better. But if you can't show that, then you have no basis to argue 18 is any better or worse than 10, which I think is why you can't answer these questions directly.


How can you determine if force or duress was involved if you can't determine if the 16 year old can give their consent?

Say the third party was the 16 year old's parents, they caught their kid with a 30 year old having sex in their room. The father want's to press charges, but the 16 year old said it was all consentual. Does the father have any legal course of action to take against the 30 year old?


I asked you what's 'worse', you can think they're both bad if you want, I'm asking you which one you think is worse?

You can't objectively determine something to be a constant for everyone when the subjects (people) are variable.*

Your point about protecting people is well intended, but I would prefer any unintended consequences default to the liberty of the person who CAN consent. To do otherwise violates THOSE individuals rights, that's a certainty.

If you start off knowing the basis of your proposed "protection" already has two flaws built into it I question the efficacy of it.

The first flaw is the system you use in order to allegedly "protect" people from coercion, uses coercion as a primary means to operate. That is undeniable and contradictory.

The second flaw is we know if you set an arbitrary age limit, that at least some people who can consent are not permited to. Denying a person WITH the wherewithal control of their own body and choices, is a form of institutionalized slavery.

It's not up to me to set a standard for how other people will live. I don't have that right. I only have a right to use defensive force if other people try to control my life. That is true for everyone.

As far as answering your "what if" legal scenarios, I don't care. It was once legal to buy and sell human beings, so seeking answers to moral dilemmas from arbitrary legal scribblings is hoping your pet blind squirrel can bring you home some nuts.




* I can think of an exception, which is that it is constant that none of us have the right to run others lives for them.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
But you NEED to know where me running my life ends and you attempting to run my life begins to know the distinction in the first place. (Or in the case of a child more specifically).

Understand?

It requires an awareness in "other" then yourself....of where those lines are in order to respect them.

And even if YOU would? Not everyone else will.

Period.

I'm glad you're a moral person. Not everyone is and that's who laws are made for. ( well....sigh....mostly...)

But since you are incapable of showing your work and your whole world view really boils down to just another cult type belief system based on a principle of faith over logic....its kind of a moot point.

I hope a version of what you believe IS someday possible. I would just prefer personal accountability to play a role in it. Cause what you suggest seems to omit every opportunity for it though lack of definition.

I'll sum up your world view simply.

Individual liberty = no external control = better world.

That's only slightly better then....... Underpants = ? = money.....

P.S...yes I looked at the site. What I'm asking for is what THE SITE claims its for. Namely.... "Statement of Purpose: Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society"...

There is no strategy in what you propose. That's our whole issue here. You suggest an ideal end result with no tangible (or even basic explanation) as to how we get there.

So if this is your goal? "Voluntaryists seek to delegitimize the State through education".

We're all ears...educate us. And by educate I mean teach me through logical discourse and proven works. Show me a well thought out alternative to the current system I can join and make a difference with.

Otherwise how are you any better then the average politician spouting idealism with no follow through? Because I require MORE then good intentions to follow something.

I'm no sheep. Not for any politician, or religious leader or even the well intentioned activist.

I....require....more.



What Voluntaryism Means to Me
By Carl Watner
(June, 2014)

I don’t have any special qualifications to define ‘voluntaryism,’ except that I have been publishing THE VOLUNTARYIST newsletter since its inception in 1982, and am a long-time student of the concept. Both in historical tradition and in contemporary usage, voluntaryism coincides with my personal philosophy of non-violence and non-participation in politics. With special thanks to all the voluntaryists of the past who have contributed to this tradition, I offer the following personal statement of belief:

1. I condemn all invasive acts and reject the initiation of violence. This is what many today call ‘libertarianism.’

2. I assert that the State acts aggressively when it engages in taxation and coercively monopolizes the provision of public services. Many disagree with this assertion, but those who agree with it would generally label themselves ‘anarchists.’

3. This anarchist insight into the nature of the State - that the State is, inherently and necessarily, an invasive institution - serves to distinguish the anarchist from the libertarian, for my purposes here. In other words, not all libertarians are anarchists, since some libertarians view limited taxation and limited government as non-invasive and legitimate.

4. I hold the doctrine, which is common among anarchists, that all the affairs of people should be conducted on a voluntary basis. I do not argue for the specific form that voluntary arrangements will take; only that coercion be abandoned so that individuals in society may flourish.

5. The burden of proof is on those who attempt to justify the State (in whatever form) since they are trying to prevent people from peacefully using their own property in accord with their own desires.


6. Although it is not incumbent upon them to do so, some anarchists try to present their vision of a future stateless society. Based on these ‘visions,‘ we find many different types of anarchists. Two chief issues which have divided anarchists historically and theoretically are the questions of 1) how property will be owned in a stateless society; and 2) what means will be used to remove the State from our lives.

7. I am an individualist-anarchist because I recognize the validity of the self-ownership and homesteading axioms. The individualists advocate private ownership - both in property for personal consumption, as well as in the means of production. Collectivist-, communist-, and syndicalist- anarchists, on the other hand, support some sort of communal/community ownership of the means of production.

8. Like all voluntaryists, past and present, I commit myself to shunning participation in the electoral system, and also reject violent means of fighting or sabotaging the State. Violence is no substitute for convincing argument. People must come to the conclusion that the State is not a necessary social institution. Rejection of the political means and violence is premised on the voluntaryist insight that governments depend on the cooperation of those they rule. Etienne de a Boetie, a mid-16th Century Frenchman, was probably the first to call attention to this observation: If enough people withdraw their consent, the State will fall of its own accord. The Voluntaryist Statement of Purpose explains it thusly:
Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society. We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy. Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

9. Thus, graphically displayed, there would be a large circle labeled “libertarians.” Then there would be a smaller circle within the libertarian circle, which would be labeled “anarchists,” and within the anarchist circle would be yet a smaller circle labeled “voluntaryists,” for those anarchists who reject electoral politics and embrace peaceful change.

10. I think that H. L. Mencken pretty well summarized my sentiments, when he wrote in THE FORUM of September 1930:

“I believe that all government is evil in that all government must make war upon liberty and that the democratic form is at least as bad as any of the other forms. But the whole thing may after all be put very simply:

I believe it is better to tell the truth than lie;

I believe it is better to be a free man than a slave; and

I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for reading what you did, perhaps you missed the part above, which might help answer your questions. I hilited some that I thought answered one of your questions.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
it's super creepy how you can't stop preaching to us about how low the age of consent should be, and refuse to state that 10 years old is off limits.

Except you're lying. I never said the age should be fixed, since the age ISN'T fixed in reality, only legislatively. You already agreed to that. If you fix an age you then OMIT at least some people, you are also then admitting that you think it's okay to control some people via legislation who ARE capable of making those determinations themselves.

In other words, you took the PROHIBITIONIST STANCE.


Also, I'll remind you that your idea these things MUST be legislated and that is the only way to conduct things like this, is a contradiction and proves you believe in two opposing things at once.

First you say you want to protect people who don't have the ability to consent. Then the first thing you do is use a system, which ISN'T based in consent to pass a law, PREVENTING some people, who by your admission who CAN consent from doing so....


It's so cute when both sides of your mouth move at once like that.
 
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