Capitalism and health care

medicineman · Oct 3, 2007

A Crisis of Capitalism?

In his interview with John Bogle, Bill Moyers cites this article from THE NEW YORK TIMES. which examines more than 1,200 nursing homes purchased by large private investment groups.

The piece, "At Many Homes, More Profit and Less Nursing" reports that:

"The TIMES analysis shows that managers at many other nursing homes acquired by large private investors have cut expenses and staff, sometimes below minimum legal requirements..."
"...In recent years, large private investment groups have agreed to buy 6 of the nation's 10 largest nursing home chains, containing over 141,000 beds, or 9 percent of the nation's total."

The article further details residents from one home who died from what family members call negligent care, while investors profited millions.

Bogle calls this a "national disgrace," contending that:

"There are some things that must be entrusted to government and some things that must be entrusted to private enterprise. "

Do you agree?

7xstall · Oct 3, 2007

"There are some things that must be entrusted to government and some things that must be entrusted to private enterprise. "

Do you agree?

yes! health care must never be entrusted to the same people who spend billions on holes, millions on bridges to nowhere. it must never be entrusted to the corrupt politicians who take millions of dollars from con men or who legislate no bid contracts. only a fool would suggest that.

great article, med, let's make sure that existing laws are enforced so that people who mistreat those under their care do some hard time in the slammer.

it's so nice to see how, over the past seven years, so many corrupt corporate bosses and execs are actually getting their due!

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medicineman · Oct 3, 2007

7xstall said:
"There are some things that must be entrusted to government and some things that must be entrusted to private enterprise. "
Do you agree?

yes! health care must never be entrusted to the same people who spend billions on holes, millions on bridges to nowhere. it must never be entrusted to the corrupt politicians who take millions of dollars from con men or who legislate no bid contracts. only a fool would suggest that.

great article, med, let's make sure that existing laws are enforced so that people who mistreat those under their care do some hard time in the slammer.

it's so nice to see how, over the past seven years, so many corrupt corporate bosses and execs are actually getting their due!

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I think you missed the point. That is what private medical does, Cut care and increase pricing, The profit motive you know. Besides where did it say those assholes got punished, it didn't. It just pointed out the perils of private medical. More money-less care is the norm. As opposed to government run medical where the profit is not the driving force and maybe the patients well being would become paramount as it is in the VA., at least in the VA where I recieve my care.

7xstall · Oct 3, 2007

the same thing applies to government health care. what do they do when budgets are cut? cut care i would assume. what do they do when stuff gets out of hand and innocent people suffer? make excuses and form committees.

the private sector is much faster, much more agile and more advanced than government can or ever will be. the primary goal of every successful businessman i have ever met is not profit, it's improving some aspect of people's lives. those care facilities were not started by someone wanting to cash in by neglecting old people. someone who was profit centered got in the way and i bet they found themselves out the door. that doesn't happen with government.

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medicineman · Oct 3, 2007

7xstall said:
the same thing applies to government health care. what do they do when budgets are cut? cut care i would assume. what do they do when stuff gets out of hand and innocent people suffer? make excuses and form committees.

the private sector is much faster, much more agile and more advanced than government can or ever will be. the primary goal of every successful businessman i have ever met is not profit, it's improving some aspect of people's lives. those care facilities were not started by someone wanting to cash in by neglecting old people. someone who was profit centered got in the way and i bet they found themselves out the door. that doesn't happen with government.

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Who in the hell have you been hanging out with, Jesus? "The primary goal of every business man I've ever met is not profit" HaHaHaHoHoHoHeHeHe~LOL~>Me thinks you are delusional!!!! You bet they found themselves out the door? HaHaHaHoHoHoHeHeHe~LOL~, yeah I'll bet NOT!!! Government has oversight. It is up to the citizens to make it work. Private business has no oversight and no moral premis except profit. Profit is the only goal of the corporation, it has no conscience. Unless embarassed in the public forum to the point of government intervention they will do anything to minimize costs and maximize profits, period. Patient care is a cost, Duhhh!

7xstall · Oct 3, 2007

have you ever sat down and talked to any millionaires? i thought you said that concrete company owner was a good guy?

of course profit is the icing on the cake, but what inspired them to get involved? how far do you think people can get on nothing but greed? in this world of runaway government/private hybrid corporations the greed can build empires but that wouldn't happen without government props.

speaking of Jesus, you've just given me a new insight. i would argue that government represents the love of money as an institution. what did He say... render unto....? government is the mechanism that men of less character use to live out their lust for money vicariously. think about it, through government the poor seek to steal from the rich... it's all about money in an ADD/tangential way... very cool.

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medicineman · Oct 3, 2007

7xstall said:
have you ever sat down and talked to any millionaires? i thought you said that concrete company owner was a good guy?

of course profit is the icing on the cake, but what inspired them to get involved? how far do you think people can get on nothing but greed? in this world of runaway government/private hybrid corporations the greed can build empires but that wouldn't happen without government props.

speaking of Jesus, you've just given me a new insight. i would argue that government represents the love of money as an institution. what did He say... render unto....? government is the mechanism that men of less character use to live out their lust for money vicariously. think about it, through government the poor seek to steal from the rich... it's all about money in an ADD/tangential way... very cool.

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Man, you are one toke over the line. "Render unto caesar what is caesars and unto God what is Gods" You call that stealing. Well I guess then I'm a thief by proxy. Yeah my ex boss was a great man and very rich, but he was the exception, not the norm. I've observed rich assholes from the outside looking in and they are a sorry bunch. My Boss was a cut above those dickheads. He knew where he came from but the business was still about the profit, don't delude yourself, he wasn't doing it for the good of mankind. I agree that business owners provide jobs and a service to society. they just need a conscience, an awareness of humanity, and a lot less of self. There is no solution as it is a dog eat dog world, and only the tough survive. Trying to do life like Jesus said will get you killed in a heartbeat. Turn the other cheek and get a knife in the ribs. I woulde like to see Jesus's world, but not now, it's not possible. Peace is only a fleeting parable once dreamed about by children. Todays children are more into gangs and violence. I don't know how to shield my grandkids from this without leaving the country. There are peaceful places on this planet, places where the white man has not infected yet, but they are getting scarce.

ViRedd · Oct 3, 2007

The article further details residents from one home who died from what family members call negligent care, while investors profited millions.

Bogle calls this a "national disgrace ...

So, the author cites one home and calls that a national disgrace? Leave it to Bill Moyers to compound the negative to make a point for socializing our entire medical system.

Vi

7xstall · Oct 4, 2007

ViRedd said:
The article further details residents from one home who died from what family members call negligent care, while investors profited millions.

Bogle calls this a "national disgrace ...

So, the author cites one home and calls that a national disgrace? Leave it to Bill Moyers to compound the negative to make a point for socializing our entire medical system.

Vi

yep, that too.

as bad as it is - these things happen. government or private, there are enough slack ass sorry people in the world to impact decent, good people every day of the week. enveloping institutions to government is not a sure fire way to avoid this stuff. look at Challenger, no private company would have launched on that day...

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medicineman · Oct 4, 2007

ViRedd said:
The article further details residents from one home who died from what family members call negligent care, while investors profited millions.

Bogle calls this a "national disgrace ...

So, the author cites one home and calls that a national disgrace? Leave it to Bill Moyers to compound the negative to make a point for socializing our entire medical system.

Vi

Get used to it VI, It's a comin, And the rich will have to subsidize the poor, Oh woe is me, you are really not a christian like you profess are you VI? I mean helping the poor is very distasteful to you. Your charity meter would explode. Since I've never had an excessive amount of money, maybe I am closer to that poverty line, in point of fact, I am. So it allows me to see clearly how rich assholes horde their money and preach Jesus while acting like the true devils they really are. Hail Jesus, but stay the fuck away from my money. I see a lot of you heathens heading south' into the burning lake of fire~LOL~.

7xstall · Oct 4, 2007

Get used to it VI, It's a comin, And the rich will have to subsidize the poor, Oh woe is me, you are really not a christian like you profess are you VI? I mean helping the poor is very distasteful to you. Your charity meter would explode. Since I've never had an excessive amount of money, maybe I am closer to that poverty line, in point of fact, I am. So it allows me to see clearly how rich assholes horde their money and preach Jesus while acting like the true devils they really are. Hail Jesus, but stay the fuck away from my money. I see a lot of you heathens heading south' into the burning lake of fire~LOL~.

why do you do that kind of shit? don't you ever get tired of disrespecting yourself?

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medicineman · Oct 4, 2007

why do you do that kind of shit? don't you ever get tired of disrespecting yourself?
Are you fucking insane? the only person I'm disrespecting here is VI. He constantly posts how he is making money hand over fist, yet contends the poor are a bunch of lazy bastards, and deserve no help from him. It is that kind of mind set that I disrespect, and with that drivel you just posted, my respect for you is waning.

7xstall · Oct 4, 2007

well, it looked to me like you were disrespecting yourself by being a judgmental asshole. none of what you said had any negative effect on Vi, only you.

for all you know he will come on here and post a scan of his tax return showing $195,000 in contributions to some charity for deformed kids or something.

you don't have to make personal attacks all the time. it's funny sometimes but usually not.

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medicineman · Oct 4, 2007

7xstall said:
well, it looked to me like you were disrespecting yourself by being a judgmental asshole. none of what you said had any negative effect on Vi, only you.

for all you know he will come on here and post a scan of his tax return showing $195,000 in contributions to some charity for deformed kids or something.

you don't have to make personal attacks all the time. it's funny sometimes but usually not.

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Who knows what the real VI is like, I only go by his presentation of himself here on this site. You can call me an asshole if you are so disposed. 'm sure I've called you worse. The point wasn't me disrespecting me, but disrespecting what VI has presented on this site. He is old enough to know better, you are not.

closet.cult · Oct 4, 2007

o.k. so, let's all pretend we're rich asshole bosses who are hording our dollars because we work hard for them.

what do we owe the poor in the nation? how much of our earnings is a poor person entitled to?

7xstall · Oct 4, 2007

medicineman said:
Who knows what the real VI is like, I only go by his presentation of himself here on this site. You can call me an asshole if you are so disposed. 'm sure I've called you worse. The point wasn't me disrespecting me, but disrespecting what VI has presented on this site. He is old enough to know better, you are not.

we're never going to all see eye to on everything. i might not have walked with the dinosaurs but i do know that's a fact. these arguments and debates make us think and help us be able to consider the other points of view that are out there. no one comes into the political forum to experience homogeneous discourse of shallow topics. yeah, we get mad and call names but to make an entire post about nothing really subtracts from the otherwise valuable aspects of these discussions.

those of us in this forum - we're the thinkers of this country, we're the people who actually make a difference. we're the pebble cast into the pond because we take part, we explore beyond the headlines. (some more than others - lol)

let's just beat the shit out of each peacefully.

.

medicineman · Oct 4, 2007

closet.cult said:
o.k. so, let's all pretend we're rich asshole bosses who are hording our dollars because we work hard for them.

what do we owe the poor in the nation? how much of our earnings is a poor person entitled to?

Having never been a rich asshole boss, (I've been the Boss, but never the asshole boss, well anyway I don't think so, and definently not rich) I find it rather difficult to get my mind around this, I might be OK with the asshole part as I've been called worse, but never been rich. What does Jesus say? Pretty much he says give it away and follow him. I don't think I'd go that extreme, but a rich person could do a lot more to help those less fortunate than a poor person I have my favorite charities and give what little I can, unfortunately my meager giving does not do much to change the world, just makes me feel better. 10% to the church and 50% above your existence level comforts sounds about right, get with the program, ~LOL~. No church, 60%.

7xstall · Oct 5, 2007

closet.cult said:
o.k. so, let's all pretend we're rich asshole bosses who are hording our dollars because we work hard for them.

what do we owe the poor in the nation? how much of our earnings is a poor person entitled to?

this is a tough question, imo. this question is like asking how much water the ocean owes to a particular fish! lol

we owe the poor what our conscience allows us to owe the poor, nothing more and nothing less. no one is licensed to tell us what that is because we're all different.

as a society we owe dignity to those who are poor because of circumstances beyond their control. you can't put a dollar amount on that but it would consist of allowing private charities more room to assist the people that need help. there are so many hoops and hassles created by our gargantuan federal government that it's hard to help them.

we all witnessed the fiasco in the news not long ago when it literally took an act of congress to let a charity give money to the widows of dead miners. how sad that really is, and just think of the damage that event did to all private charities.

.

medicineman · Oct 5, 2007

7xstall said:
this is a tough question, imo. this question is like asking how much water the ocean owes to a particular fish! lol

we owe the poor what our conscience allows us to owe the poor, nothing more and nothing less. no one is licensed to tell us what that is because we're all different.

as a society we owe dignity to those who are poor because of circumstances beyond their control. you can't put a dollar amount on that but it would consist of allowing private charities more room to assist the people that need help. there are so many hoops and hassles created by our gargantuan federal government that it's hard to help them.

we all witnessed the fiasco in the news not long ago when it literally took an act of congress to let a charity give money to the widows of dead miners. how sad that really is, and just think of the damage that event did to all private charities.

.

So, what about the selfish assholes that wouldn't give a cent. I'll bet there are way more of those than generous people. So you would stop food stamps, aid to poor children, Medicare, school lunch programs, basically all the poor programs and rely on private charity? What a dreamer. I see your Idol; Bush, vetoed the Childrens medical bill while spending a hundred times more on Iraq.Thats how your charity would work, veto, please. Government is supposed to be there to provide for their people that which they cant provide for themselves, while helping them to provide for themselves, education, equal opportunities etc.. I know you'll argue that government should stay away from helping people and leave that to charity, so around and round we go.

7xstall · Oct 5, 2007

medicineman said:
So, what about the selfish assholes that wouldn't give a cent. I'll bet there are way more of those than generous people. So you would stop food stamps, aid to poor children, Medicare, school lunch programs, basically all the poor programs and rely on private charity? What a dreamer. I see your Idol; Bush, vetoed the Childrens medical bill while spending a hundred times more on Iraq.Thats how your charity would work, veto, please. Government is supposed to be there to provide for their people that which they cant provide for themselves, while helping them to provide for themselves, education, equal opportunities etc.. I know you'll argue that government should stay away from helping people and leave that to charity, so around and round we go.

so you don't want the poor to have good jobs and actually earn money to take care of their family? you don't want the people who want to help the poor to be able to do so? you would rather have government programs waste money that could be used to help people that are poor? i see who your idol is, he's holding a hammer and sickle in each hand and he wants everyone to worship the government.

that socialized pandering piece of crap law was nothing but an obstacle to the many state and private programs that are already being developed.

anyway, those who wouldn't give a cent are entitled to do so, med. that's what you don't get. forcing people to give money away is theft.

here's another fact for you: government is not supposed to be there for people, people are supposed to be there for people. you have been assimilated by the borg. i want to help the poor, get the government out of the way!

as a society we owe dignity to those who are poor because of circumstances beyond their control. you can't put a dollar amount on that but it would consist of allowing private charities more room to assist the people that need help. there are so many hoops and hassles created by our gargantuan federal government that it's hard to help them.

we all witnessed the fiasco in the news not long ago when it literally took an act of congress to let a charity give money to the widows of dead miners. how sad that really is, and just think of the damage that event did to all private charities.

.

Capitalism and health care

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