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Clean Clones

Discussion in 'Hydroponics / Aeroponics' started by Rahz, Jan 1, 2018.

  1.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Picked up some UC roots, SM-90 and Azos, another bacterial based solution with a different species. UC roots contains hypochlorous acid and after some reading it seems this form of chlorine is somewhat stable in solution between 5 and 6 ph which makes it a good bleach alternative.

    Cleanrootscandidates.jpg
     
  2.  
    Howard Burn

    Howard Burn Well-Known Member

    I have been using SM 90 as a foilar spray, the next two days the plants gain visible vigor and growth, got that fruity smell too
     
    zypheruk and Rahz like this.
  3.  
    Victor6634

    Victor6634 Well-Known Member

    I use clonex solution uc roots and hormex for cloning in a oxycloner works great
     
  4.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    It does smell like fruit loops. I can smell it without even opening the bottle. Do you spray it on flowering plants or just in veg?
     
    Howard Burn likes this.
  5.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Were you having issues prior to using the UC roots?
     
  6.  
    Victor6634

    Victor6634 Well-Known Member

    No never had issues saw medgrower1 video showing how to clone and that was what he was using along with the clonex solution and hormex and it worked awesome.uc roots just keeps everything nice and sterile . They develop roots like crazy
     
    Rahz likes this.
  7.  
    Howard Burn

    Howard Burn Well-Known Member

    Twice throughout my veg phase, after clones root, then about 5-6 weeks later before flower.... I know folks who have used it in flower, but anything spraying or moist on your buds after week3 of flower could create humidity or mold issues.
     
    Rahz likes this.
  8.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Looking at the Hydroguard vs Garden Friendly Fungicide, their guaranteed analysis uses two different methods so it's impossible to tell which is more concentrated. Hydroguard seems to measure the bacteria (spores I'm guessing since the solution is clear) in dry weight. The GFF lists the bacteria as 98% of volume and is an opaque brown liquid, so not just spores. There are other ingredients but not specified. At any rate, the usage rates for both products suggests the Hydroguard is a better value.

    Update on the root rot battle. The old roots that had quit growing have turned dark brown again. This suggests the Daconil was not effective at the concentration I used even when roots were mostly cleaned using the 4ppm bleach solution. I have cut most of the old roots away getting the worst of it which was below the water line. The new roots are still white and growing, but I don't know how that would have played out. I've switched out the water and this time added 1 Tbs of Banrot in 20 gallons of nutrient solution. This results in a much higher PPM than the Daconil and Banrot is listed for Pythium so I'll see how it looks in a few days.
     
    GroErr likes this.
  9.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    First round. All samples soaked in treatment at recommended rates + half strength Clonex solution, PHed to 5.6

    Rockwool cubes soaked for 1 hour, clone dipped in gel, inserted and transferred to tray inserts, labeled, placed under humidity dome.

    1- Plain water
    2- UC Roots
    3- Azos
    4- Root Shield
    5- SM-90
    6- Hydroguard
     
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  10.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Root rot in the veg area hasn't re-established but the Banrot seems to be killing the roots. Plants still seem healthy up top so it seems worthwhile to attempt a cure again. Plants are currently bubbling in 4ppm bleach in plain water. This treatment seemed to be effective while not harming the roots. pump/chiller will be cleaned with a heavy bleach solution while the rez get's scrubbed down again. I will be sure to rinse everything well to remove any residue of Bleach and Banrot.

    It's possible the Banrot would have been effective at a lower dose but I'm going to switch things up. At this point the plan is to introduce a massive amount of beneficial bacteria in an attempt to guard against pythium reestablishment.

    All clones are looking healthy (3 cuttings each which I didn't specify in the earlier post). RH has been 90-95% in the domes. I'll open the vents on them today. Will begin to check for roots at day 5.
     
    GroErr likes this.
  11.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    I was reading an account of a guy who fought off root rot using a combination of Pythoff and a copper sulfate product. He mentioned that DM Zone was possibly a copper sulfate product. Anyone know for sure what's in DM Zone? Anyway, after looking around a little bit it seems like using copper might be an effective strategy for cloning purposes so I'll look into getting ahold of a copper product for testing.

    He also mentioned using test strips for the Pythoff and having to use 1.5x the max strength to achieve the desired chloramine concentration. This is the second time I've read about chlorine based products not holding up, either due to degradation over time or the product not being made with the indicated levels. I've also read about certain other products not having the guaranteed analysis. In the end I hope the beneficial bacteria and/or fungi end up working the best. I think using it from the start and giving the bennies time to colonize the rockwool is the best strategy for transferring from the clone environment to the grow environment and avoiding root rot in the process.

    Day 3, all clones are still looking perky. RH under the dome now sitting around 80 with the vents cracked open. I'll check for water content this evening but suspect they'll be fine for a couple more days.

    Root Rot update, plants haven't recovered from the bleach treatment yet. Last time recovery was about 3 days so it's too soon to tell if they still have some life left in them. I ended up using 4x the recommended Hydroguard along with a tablespoon of Azos and a couple teaspoons of Root Shield, so 2 types of bacteria and trichoderma. If this fails I will begin to think a proper bennie tea is the only way to actually cure root rot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    GroErr likes this.
  12.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Root Rot update: No change in plants. If they're going to recover from the latest treatment tomorrow is the 3 day mark. If I don't see new root growth tomorrow I'll probably given the another 2-3 days. Reason being, previous treatment exhibited new root growth on day 3, and re-establishment of dark brown root rot at day 5. So tomorrow being day 3, if there are no roots I'll give them a couple more days to see if the rot returns. If it does not that would still be a good indication there is a reasonable alternative to brewing tea.

    Clean Clone update: Clones still looking perky at day 4. Tomorrow I will check for roots. I will also be doing re-hydration tomorrow. The cuttings that have been soaked in bennie solution will receive plain tap water while the UC Roots and SM-90 will be hydrated with their respective solutions. I'm concerned chlorine levels in the UC Roots samples will be dropping off pretty good at this point. Some level of chloramine should be present but I'm not sure it would be enough to carry through to the transplant. SM-90 in theory should be more stable but some of it could get rinsed out during re-hydration. Any opinions on this?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
    GroErr likes this.
  13.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Root Rot update: No new growth. Despite the tops still looking good I suspect the plants have been through too much for another recovery. The roots seem to be a little darker tan so I suspect the root rot will re-establish in the next day or two. Damn that pythium! I cleaned everything so well I feel that the source of continued infection is the roots themselves. Bennie products are spore products and just aren't going to be as good as a vigorous live culture of brewed tea. At some point in the future I may get into tea brewing again and be a little more scientific about it. It depends on how successful the cloning tests are at preventing infection.

    As I mentioned, I've had mixed results with tea in the past. I think a good way to give the tea a helping hand when infection is already present would be to replace the nutrient solution with plain water and 4ppm sodium hypochlorite and allow it to bubble in the roots for 4-5 hours. This would weaken the pythium at which point the water would be replaced with nutrient solution and brewed tea for the knockout punch. An important consideration, some species of bacteria and fungi don't do well when P levels are over 70 PPM so nutrient solutions should contain low P for at least a week or two while the tea works it's magic.

    I have another chiller, it's been soaking in bleach, 30,000 ppm sodium hypochlorite for the last week. I'll switch the chillers out along with new tubes, stones, etc. when I place new clones in the system. The only thing I'll need to clean is the tub itself. I may spray it down with acid.

    Clean Clones update: No roots showing yet at day 5. Cubes have been re-dipped. Vent's open half way now. Very little dehydration occurred under the dome, to the point rehydration wasn't really necessary. One of the Root Shield subjects show a slight grey discoloration on top of the rockwool. Whether it's a natural discoloration of the rockwool or trich I'm not sure yet. I've been dealing with trichoderma (as a pathogen) much longer than I've been playing with plants and I know how aggressive it can be so there's some concern the trich will end up eating the cuttings without any competition in the environment.

    At this point I will begin checking for roots daily. I'm already thinking about round 2. The top two or three contenders from round one will be going up against Banrot, Daconil and 100ppm peroxide and perhaps the Garden Friendly Fungicide to see how it measures up against Hydroguard. I've looked around for other products and there are several I'm considering.

    Great White: 15 different species of mycorrhizal fungi, 19 different species of beneficial bacteria, 2 species of trichoderma, plant vitamins and glycine all in one product

    Recharge: Loaded with Mycorrhizae,trichoderma, and beneficial bacteria with Kelp, Humic, Fulvic & Molasses - This is basically a powdered tea. It would be interesting to test it out brewed and nonbrewed.

    Ideal cloning temps are around 78 and my environment is around 73. I think I should continue the testing with the same conditions since these lower temps will hopefully produce a wider spread in rooting time and make it easier to pick winners, but I will likely purchase a heating mat at some point and do testing with it as well.
     
    GroErr likes this.
  14.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    Since 9AM this morning, in the span of 7 hours the roots went from tan to dark brown nasty. Wasn't expecting that. I have some rooted clones in a bucket cloner, roots nice and white and ready to go so I'll try again once everything has been sterilized.

    Just a few feet away in another tent I have 2 plants in bubble buckets, no chiller, no water circulation other than the air stones, almost 4 weeks into 12/12 and blooming like a boss.
     
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  15.  
    Budley Doright

    Budley Doright Well-Known Member

    Wow, an amazing effort to test different products and techniques :). I'm like chem when it comes to taking clones, nothing sterilized, use res water, although I now use cubes and domes exclusively. I had too many issues using bubble cloner and never powered up my spray cloner. Using the root riot cubes and dome I have 100% success and it's quick. But again great thread. I used hydroguard to cure a raging case of rot and after failing with bleach, h2o2, and shock, it was the one that did it. Another bonus, it seemed to help with growth through out the run. I would still use it but it's unavailable here now :(.
     
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  16.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    I think that's smart for people who have had pythium issues and I'm just about to retire my clone buckets. Domes are cheap and every cube starts as a non-infected growth medium.

    Doing a little more research I found two oomycete specific fungicides. Metalaxil and Benlate. Benlate isn't water soluble but Metalaxil is. Still, I'm going to try other fungicides as a last resort and am hopeful I can work out biological controls.

    An important point in that regard, I've just read that pythium thrives at temps of 60-68 degrees F. This may provide a partial explanation for why I have an infected system I've chilled at 68, and a non-infected system with no chiller and water staying at a constant 72-73 degrees. Furthermore, Trichoderma and many beneficial bacteria are hampered by sub 70 degree temps. I'll continue to incorporate chillers because temps will rise when it gets warmer but I'll be setting the temp to 72. There might be some concern that such temps will lower dissolved oxygen content, but there's not a lot of difference between 68 and 72 in that regard. Additionally the ideal temp for root metabolism is mid-upper 70s. So between those two functions there's an acceptable span of about 15 degrees... no real reason to keep temps in the 65-68 range especially if a biological control is being used.

    Having said that, 68 isn't a brick wall for pythium. It can cause damage well into the 70s. The main point here is that +70 degree temps seems to favor beneficials over pathogens. It's been cited that 90% of pathogen issues in hydroponics are pythium related. It's a problem in soils too when treated with chemical and even biological controls because the spores persist so long, but improving soil quality and proper irrigation are very useful in controlling pythium and other water molds in traditional media.

    I haven't checked the clones yet, but won't do a Clean Clone update until first sign of roots. BTW, roots in the bubble cloner are looking a little tan this morning... not even going to bother trying to grow them. Several weeks of running 4ppm bleach and scrubing/soaking the equipment in heavy bleach every 3 days and the pythium persists. The last changeout I added in some clonex solution because roots had formed and I wasn't ready to transfer them. Nutes neutralized the chlorine into chloramine and the pythium spores woke up. So the bubble cloner has been shut down and will bubble no more. If I were to continue to use that method I would purchase all new equipment or attempt to clean it all with either a strong acid or by simmering everything I could fit in a pot for 90-120 minutes. I'm not sure the pump would survive those temps but it would be worth a try. Moreso than all other methods, killing it with fire is ideal. Sterilization is typically done at 250F in an autoclave/pressure cooker with substrate at that temp for 30 minutes. However, steam sterilization (212F) can be effective if temps are held for longer periods. Substrates quickly reach 212 when submerged so a 90 minute simmer should be close to 100% effective against all living organisms and spores.
     
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  17.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

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  18.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    Have you tried running some physan 20 as part of your sterilization cycle in between runs? I use it to clean with but haven't ran it in my res with clones present.

    EDIT: I should mention that my room temps regularly exceed 80f, but I keep my cloner res at 72.4f
     
  19.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

  20.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    I have used Physan 20 before. It's been several years ago but I don't recall being impressed with it as a sterilization agent between grows or as a cure. It doesn't seem to kill pythium spores or disrupt a heavy infestation. It might work well as a preventative though. I would be willing to test it in the cloning trials. If I don't include it in Round 2 I will try to work it into round 3.
     

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