Creation Vs Evolution

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
You are the one making sweeping claims. I was HIGHLY SPECIFIC in my questions. They are ones that need to be answered, not ones that I want. And I might add, ones you fail to address in all of your posts. Still waiting to hear how random chemical reactions formed DNA that contains the instructions for complex organisms.
For the umpteenth time, lack of knowledge as to certain specifics does not make your belief any more valid. You keep asking for proof that we keep telling you doesn't exist. Just because YOU want answers to specific questions doesn't mean that we have THOSE answers. You hand wave at every other piece of evidence as not enough but that too is a tired old creationist tactic called moving the goal posts. As soon as we find damning evidence like Human Chromosome #2, IDers say that's not enough, give us more, yet they are denying good evidence for a hypothesis that has NO evidence and isn't even scientific. This is merely a version of god of the gaps fallacy.
Stop posting your opinions as if they are fact. Evolution is widely accepted, but not nearly as factually supported as most scientific theories. There is no doubt as to how photosynthesis or the TCA cycle works or most things in physics or chemistry. These are proven scientific theories. And we have many theories regarding genetics that are hardly debatable.
Any science degree you have should be revoked. This is complete and utter bullshit.
Photosynthesis, TCA, and every other metabolic process has been figured out based on indirect evidence, no stronger or weaker than the indirect evidence we have for natural selection. Atomic theory is still a theory and incomplete. Tell us exactly which genetic theories are 100% absolute proven.
Where evolution becomes a problem is when the underlying genetic OBSERVATIONS are extrapolated and an unproven cause is assumed.
The unobserved cause was hypothesized and evidence is continually being found to support this theory. Science works the same in all of these disciplines. Learn the history of how we learned things like germ theory, atomic physics, chemistry and genetics and you will find brilliant people making leaps of logical assumptions that continue to be shown correct by the evidence even though no direct observation of many of these things have ever been seen.
The fact is, we have a bunch of observations that may or may not be related in the way we think they are. For all we know, a space virus could have deposited a plethora of seeds that were designed with adaptability sequences in their DNA. Maybe, this seed was a master code sequence for everything on the entire planet and what we are seeing is merely what has sprouted.
Like many non-scientists, you have to learn the distinction between an idea that is consistent with the observations and one that is supported by them.
Like my analogy earlier, I can make the idea that angels are responsible for what we see as gravitation completely consistent with everything we now know, yet none of the observations actually support this idea.
Either way, you are making the same argument. You after all, are arguing that life has an intrinsic ability to adapt to its environment and maybe it does. What you refuse to accept is that this intrinsic ability may not be strictly accidental. in other words, you are claiming that without a doubt, you are certain that this extraordinary ability of nature had to have been purely accidental.
I'm not the one claiming anything without a doubt. I don't 'refuse to accept' anything. I say certain things are probably very unlikely however. I am saying that the evidence thus far point to common ancestry, natural selection and geologic time and no where do I see any evidence for an intelligent agent. Thinking about things that MAY be but lacking evidence is a waste of time. There are multitudes of possibilities to explain observations but only evolution by natural selection makes any sense given the information we have.
Given that we both acknowledge that life has this amazing ability one way or anther, what proof do you have that it is all purely accidental?
Learn the burden of proof fallacy. You keep making it.
 

Operation 420

Well-Known Member
Everything is relevant in the overall scheme of how things work. Numerology, astrology, geometry etc.. Everything is tied in. Trying to argue between science and religion is futile because they are one in the same.

Sacred Geometry. :bigjoint:
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
What is god of gaps reasoning?

Let us define this phenomenon as the perception of an unknown and the fabrication of a being which has attributes that give it the ability to solve the unknown. Example:

Perceived unknown: My car keys are nowhere to be found.
Fabricated explanation: They were taken by magic invisible car key gnomes.

Where did god of gaps reasoning come from?

As omnivorous social mammals, our psychology is such that we are curious and naturally dislike not knowing. We despise unknowns because we instinctively equate them with danger... which is a fine survival trait to have: "If you don't know, assume it's going to eat you" is probably what help keep our ancestors alive. Some unknowns are easily dispelled (such as exploring a cave to make sure it's empty of predators). Others are not... such as heavenly bodies, lightning, weather, seasons and the like.

Our ancestors invented gods, spirits and monsters to explain the phenomenon they could not understand. Lightning is random and frightening. Gods, though, have attributes and attributes are knowable and far less frightening.

As we are no different from our ancestors of 40,000 years ago, this instinct is still with us.

Is god of gaps reasoning logical?

Certainly. It uses deductive reasoning. It takes the perceived aspects of a phenomenon and comes up with a conclusion based on them.

If it's logicical than what's the problem?

It's not sound logic.

Remember that the statement "Superman has the ability to lift automobiles" is logical, but not sound. Superman isn't real and things that aren't real cannot lift things that are real.

Sound logic is valid reasoning based on true premises. In the case of god of gaps reasoning, the premises are not true: they're fabricated. They are invented by human beings.

So, the problem is that god of gaps reasoning does us no good. It cannot discern the truth and any truth it happens to find is purely incidental. The Greeks who said Zeus was responsible for lightning had no evidence and if Zeus had turned out to be real, it would have been purely by accident that the Greeks named him properly.

Wait. I'm still confused. What's the difference between god of gaps reasoning and deductive reasoning.

They're close, but what seperates god of gaps reasoning from valid deductive reasoning is the aspect of fabrication. Deductive reasoning is like detective work. We look for clues and base conclusions on those clues.

God of gaps reasoning is similiar, but fatally flawed: We look at the unknown and deduce from what we don't know rather than what we do know.

Let's look at an example. A detective finds a body in an apartment. The body has a bullett wound and is laying in a large puddle of blood. The hands are clutched to the bullett wound. There is a window next to where the body fell with a bullett hole in it which is angled from the rooftop above.

A detective will conclude that the victim most likely died from a gunshot wound inflicted by an individual with a rifle on top of the nearby building. He will not say who it was because he has no evidence.

A person using god of gaps reasoning would see that the person was dead and invent a fantastic story to explain how the individual died.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
Artificial life' breakthrough announced by scientists

Page last updated at 22:51 GMT, Thursday, 20 May 2010 23:51 UK



By Victoria Gill Science reporter, BBC News
The synthetic cell looks identical to the 'wild type' Scientists in the US have succeeded in developing the first living cell to be controlled entirely by synthetic DNA.
The researchers constructed a bacterium's "genetic software" and transplanted it into a host cell.
The resulting microbe then looked and behaved like the species "dictated" by the synthetic DNA.
The advance, published in Science, has been hailed as a scientific landmark, but critics say there are dangers posed by synthetic organisms.
Some also suggest that the potential benefits of the technology have been over-stated.
But the researchers hope eventually to design bacterial cells that will produce medicines and fuels and even absorb greenhouse gases.
The team was led by Dr Craig Venter of the J Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) in Maryland and California.

Craig Venter defends the synthetic living cell

He and his colleagues had previously made a synthetic bacterial genome, and transplanted the genome of one bacterium into another.
Now, the scientists have put both methods together, to create what they call a "synthetic cell", although only its genome is truly synthetic.
Dr Venter likened the advance to making new software for the cell.
The researchers copied an existing bacterial genome. They sequenced its genetic code and then used "synthesis machines" to chemically construct a copy.
div#ss-chromosome {float:right;margin-left:10px;} div#main-content div#story-body div#ss-chromosome h2 {margin:0;} div#main-content div#story-body div#ss-chromosome dl.dslideshow-entry img {margin:0;} How a synthetic cell
was created


The scientists "decoded" the chromosome of an existing bacterial cell - using a computer to read each of the letters of genetic code.
They copied this code and chemically constructed a new synthetic chromosome, piecing together blocks of DNA.
The team inserted this chromosome into a bacterial cell which replicated itself. Synthetic bacteria might be used to make new fuels and drugs.
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Dr Venter told BBC News: "We've now been able to take our synthetic chromosome and transplant it into a recipient cell - a different organism.
"As soon as this new software goes into the cell, the cell reads [it] and converts into the species specified in that genetic code."
The new bacteria replicated over a billion times, producing copies that contained and were controlled by the constructed, synthetic DNA.
"This is the first time any synthetic DNA has been in complete control of a cell," said Dr Venter.
'New industrial revolution' Dr Venter and his colleagues hope eventually to design and build new bacteria that will perform useful functions.
"I think they're going to potentially create a new industrial revolution," he said.
"If we can really get cells to do the production that we want, they could help wean us off oil and reverse some of the damage to the environment by capturing carbon dioxide."
WATTS WHAT...

Continue reading the main story
Even some scientists worry we lack the means to weigh up the risks such novel organisms might represent, once set loose
Susan Watts BBC Newsnight Read Susan Watts's thoughts Analysis from around the world Send us your comments
Dr Venter and his colleagues are already collaborating with pharmaceutical and fuel companies to design and develop chromosomes for bacteria that would produce useful fuels and new vaccines.
But critics say that the potential benefits of synthetic organisms have been overstated.
Dr Helen Wallace from Genewatch UK, an organisation that monitors developments in genetic technologies, told BBC News that synthetic bacteria could be dangerous.
"If you release new organisms into the environment, you can do more harm than good," she said.
"By releasing them into areas of pollution, [with the aim of cleaning it up], you're actually releasing a new kind of pollution.
"We don't know how these organisms will behave in the environment."
Continue reading the main story
The risks are unparalleled, we need safety evaluation for this kind of radical research and protections from military or terrorist misuse
Julian Savulescu Oxford University ethics professor Profile: Craig Venter Q&A: The meaning of synthetic life Ethics concern over synthetic cell
Dr Wallace accused Dr Venter of playing down the potential drawbacks.
"He isn't God," she said, "he's actually being very human; trying to get money invested in his technology and avoid regulation that would restrict its use."
But Dr Venter said that he was "driving the discussions" about the regulations governing this relatively new scientific field and about the ethical implications of the work.
He said: "In 2003, when we made the first synthetic virus, it underwent an extensive ethical review that went all the way up to the level of the White House.
"And there have been extensive reviews including from the National Academy of Sciences, which has done a comprehensive report on this new field.
"We think these are important issues and we urge continued discussion that we want to take part in."
Ethical discussions Dr Gos Micklem, a geneticist from the University of Cambridge, said that the advance was "undoubtedly a landmark" study.
But, he said, "there is already a wealth of simple, cheap, powerful and mature techniques for genetically engineering a range of organisms. Therefore, for the time being, this approach is unlikely to supplant existing methods for genetic engineering".
The ethical discussions surrounding the creation of synthetic or artificial life are set to continue.
Professor Julian Savulescu, from the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics at the University of Oxford, said the potential of this science was "in the far future, but real and significant".
"But the risks are also unparalleled," he continued. "We need new standards of safety evaluation for this kind of radical research and protections from military or terrorist misuse and abuse.
"These could be used in the future to make the most powerful bioweapons imaginable. The challenge is to eat the fruit without the worm."
The advance did not pose a danger in the form of bio-terrorism, Dr Venter said.
"That was reviewed extensively in the US in a report from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and a Washington defence think tank, indicating that there were very small new dangers from this.
"Most people are in agreement that there is a slight increase in the potential for harm. But there's an exponential increase in the potential benefit to society," he told BBC's Newsnight.
"The flu vaccine you'll get next year could be developed by these processes," he added.
 
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