Democratic Rep Jeff Van Drew meets with Trump to bend the knee.

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
One of the economic lessons from the Soviet Union was from farmers.

There was a reduction in the field production rates, turned out the farmers had no incentive to do much more than not be yelled at by the government, so the fields would look great on the outer rings near the roads that the 'managers' would drive and the inside was shit. We have better tech to watch people now, but at the end of the day it is the same, people work harder when they have something to gain (or lose) from it. Any ceiling is going to eventually be arbritrary and counter productive.

I disagree with the 'it isn't working bit'. This is a great propaganda trick:



Notice, 50.3% down to 42.2% is being shown here as the Median, or just the very middle number and the area around it (which seems stupid but whatever without have the full dataset it is all smoke and mirrors).

So they use this to say the size has fallen.

View attachment 4437490
50.3% of 205.1 million is 103.1million people, 42.2% of 309.3million is 130.5 million people

So 30 million people have been added to the middle class (according to this measure) since 1970.



This is how this propaganda game is played. Which argument are you trying to make, mangle facts to fit it, write bullshit articles with these stats, and sell it (by having online tools flood every feed you read with it) to you in whatever 'camp' you decide to be in.

I can either say, 30 million people have been added to the middle class since the civil rights movements of the 70's.

or as in the 50 years that those libs took over, the middle class has shrunk by 8%!
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50% of 310 million people would make 155 million earning middle class wages instead of 131 million today.

I think perhaps the 20 million people who could have earned a middle class wage would mean a stronger economy today.
 
too larry

too larry

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
. . . . . . . the NJ guy too seems to be siding with Trump, so there might still be some rooting that she needs to figure out in the house too so she knows how deep it is. . . . . . .
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The NJ flip flopper looked at the poles. Nothing more. 24% of likely Dem primary voters in his district supported him, while 60% supported anyone but him. He's just trying to keep his seat. I doubt it will work. The GOP is not real big on folks who leave, then come back.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Communist Dreamer said:
Limiting yearly earnings so you don't make $2 billion a year, is hardly absolutism.
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That is absolutely absolutism, absolutely every dollar after 2 billion in your example is unable to be earned by a individual, so they would have no reason to continue to grow their industry the next year because they would not earn anything more. It is the same as the farmers in Soviet Russia.
Communist Dreamer said:
There's also a compromise that I think is a good idea, and better than what we currently have.

It's called maximum liquid wealth. Where an individual after earning a maximum amount has to invest the excess to investments that benefit others, not their business ventures directly. But they can only dip into those investments and convert them to liquid wealth, if during any year their liquid wealth is below the maximum allowed.

That would give the person an incentive to become more altruistic by consequence, because they'd want their humanitarian investments to thrive, just in case their personal greedy enterprise happens to fail. So it's still a win for them, and a win for all of humanity.

It also satisfies your complaint that those who want to but can't because of this limitation, which would no longer exist as an excuse, since you're still free to make as you want, but not just for your own personal greed.
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Who knows, there may be some utopian future that we just magically all agree to, but we have a pretty great system already that has worked extremely well. It is not the government's fault that us humans decided to slash and burn our forests, and pollute everything because we never considered long run costs of environmental damage.

I would argue that the liquid wealth thing you describe is already mostly being done, most income of the super wealthy is handled by teams of investors and money managers and is used to fund other businesses needs all the time.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
50% of 310 million people would make 155 million earning middle class wages instead of 131 million today.

I think perhaps the 20 million people who could have earned a middle class wage would mean a stronger economy today.
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That is where I was saying the mean/median/mode thing, without that we really are not able to draw much understanding outside of 25% of the population is on either side of that number that chart reported.

It might be that more people are higher in the middle of the 'middle class income' than ever before instead of the other way around, it could basically be anything and is nonsense trying to draw real insight from unless you really are in some kind of in-depth report that is highlighting something with that chart.

But it makes great propaganda because you can invent any story you want based on it.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
That is where I was saying the mean/median/mode thing, without that we really are not able to draw much understanding outside of 25% of the population is on either side of that number that chart reported.

It might be that more people are higher in the middle of the 'middle class income' than ever before instead of the other way around, it could basically be anything and is nonsense trying to draw real insight from unless you really are in some kind of in-depth report that is highlighting something with that chart.

But it makes great propaganda because you can invent any story you want based on it.
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The facts say that those 20 million people who would be making a middle class wage instead of their current lower wages have given all those gains in the economy to the 1%.

Instead of 20 million people who are better able to care for themselves and put the money into food, shelter and minor luxuries, a few thousand are buying mega-yachts and purchasing lobbyists. Personally, I don't think the trade-off was worth it.

Higher taxes on the wealthy funding increased spending on health care for those who need it as well as education, research, reducing carbon emissions, food and shelter for those in need would be better use of that money. Cuts in defense might be in order too.
 
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BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
That is absolutely absolutism, absolutely every dollar after 2 billion in your example is unable to be earned by a individual, so they would have no reason to continue to grow their industry the next year because they would not earn anything more.
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Honestly, who cares about the woes of some asshole not being able to earn more than 2 billion per year? Very low on my give-a-fuck-o-meter.

Maybe those business/corporation owners could pony up the true societal cost their businesses instead of sticking the bill with the middle class. Healthcare, childcare, education, infrastructure are all built/maintained so people can work and consume.

There is a cost to being wealthy, and the middle class is paying the lions share on behalf of the rich. That has to change, and I don't much care how the rich feel about it.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
Honestly, who cares about the woes of some asshole not being able to earn more than 2 billion per year? Very low on my give-a-fuck-o-meter.

Maybe those business/corporation owners could pony up the true societal cost their businesses instead of sticking the bill with the middle class. Healthcare, childcare, education, infrastructure are all built/maintained so people can work and consume.

There is a cost to being wealthy, and the middle class is paying the lions share on behalf of the rich. That has to change, and I don't much care how the rich feel about it.
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I am happy to go back to before Ronald Regan and the rest of the rich white guys slashed the tax brackets:

 
Dr.Amber Trichome

Dr.Amber Trichome

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I understand freedom is dawning there and legalization might make it worth moving back one day. Ya could eventually be able to openly grow some award winning plants there, they do call it "The Garden State" at least on the licence plates! :lol:

Having a grow in Oklahoma might be stressful, not exactly a pot friendly place, people have been put away for life over pot in places like that! The Devil's weed with its roots in Hell kinda stuff...
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Yes indeed, I do hope the garden state might pull through one day and legalizes it for the sake of all my family and friends that live there and use the herb religiously. Growing in Oklahoma is not stressful at all. It’s practically legal here with the most liberal medical laws in the nation. Oklahoma is now the 3rd top selling marijuana state in the nation and there are thousands of dispensarys in this state, it’s booming big time. Every where you drive you will see marijuana billboards advertising. I have a med card and I grow and smoke legally and don’t worry about growing because i have a super stealth grow set up. But in Tulsa Oklahoma there is a serious problem with dispensary crime and burglary’s. Someone drove thier car straight through the dispensarys window to knock down the wall to steal everything inside . a couple weeks ago 5 masked men with guns broke into a dispensary and handcuffed , muzzled and tied up a budtender to a chair with rope and stole everything inside including all the cash , weed, medibles , concentrates, gummies, Everything and got away. Tulsa is a very dangerous place with lots of crime. Yesterday a girl was in a domestic dispute with her boyfriend in a Dispensary about weed and she ran out of the dispensary and was running out into the street ran across the street and got hit by a car and died.
 
Dr.Amber Trichome

Dr.Amber Trichome

Well-Known Member
too larry said:
lol If the ability to buy gummies is how we judge the justness of states, Florida is like North Korea.
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Yes . Florida absolutely sucks. I lived in Clearwater for a year. What a loser Scientology town. Jersey got serious problems. They have cops patrolling he beaches all day long checking beach badges. And if you don’t have one you get kicked off. The Ez highway pass for tolls costs over $250 a month. Did you hear about the terrorist shooting killing the Jewish folks in Jersey City this past week?
 
too larry

too larry

Well-Known Member
Dr.Amber Trichome said:
Yes . Florida absolutely sucks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Did you hear about the terrorist shooting killing the Jewish folks in Jersey City this past week?
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Yes, so sad. I heard they were the black equivalent of white supremacists. We live in crazy times. Where guns are easy to get and hate is just a click away.
 
Communist Dreamer

Communist Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
50% of 310 million people would make 155 million earning middle class wages instead of 131 million today.

I think perhaps the 20 million people who could have earned a middle class wage would mean a stronger economy today.
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I don't know where you get those numbers. 51% make less than middle class, 44% make middle class, and 5% over middle class. Which equates to: 75.48 million under middle class, 65.12 million middle class, and 7.4 million over middle class. Or somewhere near those numbers. Depending on how you define middle class.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
www.c-span.org

President Announces Democratic Representative Van Drew is Joining the GOP

President Trump welcomed Representative Jeff Van Drew to the Republican Party at the White House. The New Jersey lawmaker recently switched from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party and had voted against the two articles of impeachment against President Trump. Representative Van Drew...
www.c-span.org www.c-span.org

Jeff Van Drew to Donald Trump: "You have my undying support. And always."
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
www.c-span.org

President Announces Democratic Representative Van Drew is Joining the GOP

President Trump welcomed Representative Jeff Van Drew to the Republican Party at the White House. The New Jersey lawmaker recently switched from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party and had voted against the two articles of impeachment against President Trump. Representative Van Drew...
www.c-span.org www.c-span.org

Jeff Van Drew to Donald Trump: "You have my undying support. And always."
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So Bernie can run as a democrat, fracture the party and hand power to the GOP, but when one fucking democrat with little relevance or name recognition comes out as a Trumptard, it's supposed to be news we can use?

Didn't you make a thread about Ojeda?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
www.npr.org

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump

Yes, Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for President Trump could have cost Hillary Clinton the election. But then, about the same share of Republican primary voters defected to Clinton.
www.npr.org www.npr.org

It's closer to 1 in 8, twelve fucking percent.

Fully 12 percent of people who voted for Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., in the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries voted for President Trump in the general election.
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