Do you flush? Do you kill the lights prior to harvest?

SimonD said:

Agree 100%. I'll go as far as to say that one almost has to conduct his own experiments and outline/streamline the relevant functions of his operation. I mean, anyone with a half-way comprehensive education can bluntly see that much of what's asserted in this field is outright crap. Wishful thinking. Stupid people relying on dubious correlations. Define it any way you like. It doesn't change.

FWIW, I grow in soil and do not flush, no dark period, never measured pH.

Simon

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no shit I know you do pretty damn good but you never measure your ph? do you use lime or anything? and just straight tap water without adjusting ph or nothing? also do you use chemical nutes or organic? and you just use pro-mix right?

k0jin links please? I searched ur name and after the 5 posts of 'nutrients arent stored in the calyx' I stopped looking and wasnt going to go thru the next 100 or so to see if they are the same. It would be helpful to people if they didnt have to go thru 100 threads of 'do a search' . How do you have the patience to keep typing the same thing instead of just linking to your information and be done with it lol. If you could it would be much appriciated.

bluntmassa1 said:

no shit I know you do pretty damn good but you never measure your ph? do you use lime or anything? and just straight tap water without adjusting ph or nothing? also do you use chemical nutes or organic? and you just use pro-mix right?

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B'cuzz Pro-Mix right into the pots; I add Perlite to BX. Jack's Classic All-Purpose in veg and JC Blossom Booster in bloom. Water straight out of the tap. That's it.

Simon

SimonD said:

B'cuzz Pro-Mix right into the pots; I add Perlite to BX. Jack's Classic All-Purpose in veg and JC Blossom Booster in bloom. Water straight out of the tap. That's it.

Simon

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Man, I had phd checked my water quite a few times a few years ago. Starting around 6 months ago, I started having issues with my plants. I kept coming up with "reasons" and the issues just kept continuing. Finally I threw my hands up, went and got a pool ph testing kit, rechecked my water....
Somehow my tap water had changed. I am guessing with as dry as things were this summer they may have switched to a different well. Either way my tap water went from a neutral ph of 7 for the past several years to almost 9.5. I had long ago adjusted my soil with additives to work with my 7 ph water so I didnt need to constantly check it. Because I thought everything was all good in that department I went through 1 full batch and most of the 2nd batch trying to remedy issues that basically was do to crazy tap water ph.
After that, I will regularly check my tap water ph just to make sure there are no suprises.

connoisseurde420 said:

k0jin links please? I searched ur name and after the 5 posts of 'nutrients arent stored in the calyx' I stopped looking and wasnt going to go thru the next 100 or so to see if they are the same. It would be helpful to people if they didnt have to go thru 100 threads of 'do a search' . How do you have the patience to keep typing the same thing instead of just linking to your information and be done with it lol. If you could it would be much appriciated.

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Are you kidding me? Did you not say you had read this thread?
I have linked to my sources not just in this thread but in countless other threads.
You said you have read this thread, yet somehow you haven't read what I've posted in this thread, since you haven't noticed I've made a comprehensive post with links and sources.

I have linked the information many times before, in so many different thread where people like you who can't be bothered to do simple research, ask the same questions, whining over the same lack of evidence when in fact it's right in front of them.

I'm not going to repeat myself again, I already have re-posted the links 5 times in the past week alone.
I can't copy paste the same information every time some lazy guy can't even be bothered to read what's directly in front of him.
You said you had read this thread which is obviously a lie since you are still asking for links and sources when I've copy pasted the same info I've been posting for the past 5 months in this very thread.

I can't take you seriously if you can't even be bothered to tell the truth.
The level of arrogance and ignorance you show by ignoring information posted right in the same thread in which you whine over no evidence being posted is beyond me.
I don't get how you could be this ignorant.
Perhaps you are just trolling because a person surely can't be this ignorant?
You can't possibly be taken seriously if you say there's no evidence when in fact there's evidence in the very thread you posted in?
Right I forgot facts don't matter to you guys, reason and logic doesn't matter.

Who cares if I posted the sources and references in this very thread, we can all just pretend I never did, just like you're doing now right?
Who cares if all the information is right here in this thread (and several other threads), let's just pretend I never posted any evidence, it's much easier to win an argument by being ignorant than thinking for yourself right?
Sitting there giving each other likes and virtual high fives over your perceived cleverness.



To sum up: The information, links, sources and references are all posted IN THIS THREAD.
It was posted BEFORE you asked your question. BEFORE you claimed you had read the thread (which you clearly haven't).

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Arjan of Greenhouse seeds flushes. He wins cannabis cups. Just saying...

Also, I cant force myself to read any more of k0ijns post there just to long. Do you really think the guy talks like that? Lol sounds a little geeky, ya know. Just saying...

Also SimonD never checks ph and uses tap but hes a pro!? LMFAO!!

Hey Rumple, just let k0ijn justify all the money he spent on his education. No biology degree, or laboratory filled with scientists, then your tests must be "facile" lol aka worthless. K0ijn, Just talk normal man.

*This post will self destruct within 24hrs LMAO!!!!!

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What a great argument..
You can't be bothered to read so you just resort to calling me a geek.
It makes me question whether you have ever read a substantial book if you can't even get through a few paragraphs on a forum post.

I never spent one penny on my education. But kudos on your assumption.
It's the wonderful thing about living in a free country, we get paid to go to University and school is free.


I never said that, don't twist my words.
It's like the time when I said "In my professional opinion" and you thought I meant I was a professional grower. You have a serious problem with understanding the meaning of words and phrases.
What I'm saying is that you cannot talk about doing nutrient experiments as 'real science' if you cannot even measure the nutrient levels or have any idea what's going on inside the plant.
You guys are comparing simple experiments to complex experiments, as if they are the same.
Your premise is ignorant beyond belief.


The reason some of your posts are being deleted is because they are off topic and/or offensive.
You have this nack of acting like a petulant child while whining if anyone does anything to you.

mr. green thumb 01 said:

Also SimonD never checks ph and uses tap but hes a pro!? LMFAO!!

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Please stop trying to troll me. When you can pull what I do, feel free to laugh all you want.

Simon

Tried flushing and not flushing....no difference.tried extended darkness before harvest versus no darkness....no difference

althor said:

Man, I had phd checked my water quite a few times a few years ago. Starting around 6 months ago, I started having issues with my plants. I kept coming up with "reasons" and the issues just kept continuing. Finally I threw my hands up, went and got a pool ph testing kit, rechecked my water....
Somehow my tap water had changed. I am guessing with as dry as things were this summer they may have switched to a different well. Either way my tap water went from a neutral ph of 7 for the past several years to almost 9.5. I had long ago adjusted my soil with additives to work with my 7 ph water so I didnt need to constantly check it. Because I thought everything was all good in that department I went through 1 full batch and most of the 2nd batch trying to remedy issues that basically was do to crazy tap water ph.
After that, I will regularly check my tap water ph just to make sure there are no suprises.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. We all have to do what we must. In my case, there's no reason to adjust or alter anything. The plants don't need further input; the garden runs like a machine. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. lol

Simon

Rumple said:

I never said I was checking molecular chemistry or uranium enrichment in my grow room. And you don't need to do that stuff to measure results and debunk grow myths. The science I am doing has nothing to do with why, I only focus on results/outcome. Then a simple blind human study (in this case) is all I need to see what works in my grow room. Not NASA but effective. You can go on and on about why I get my results, but it won't change them and I don't really care. Perhaps it has to do with one of the many variable's (nutrients, strain, cycle time, or that old lady next door), but I am only interested in making a good product. I will let others come up with the "why" answers and cold fusion.

BTW: I have access to a fully equipped lab (almost never use it), we even have an electron microscope (used for checking metal grain structure). Perhaps I can get a few trichome photos with it.

Click to expand...

I know you didn't and I wasn't trying to twist the meaning of your words.
I'm simply stating that to know about nutrients and how they affect the plant, you need to measure nutrient levels, storage etc.
You need a lot of detailed information before you can make assumptions about how nutrients behave and how plants react to them.

I know you just focus on the outcome, which is fine but it's not conclusive.
The case you experience could be a 1/100 fluke, or it could be other variables affecting the outcome.
There are so many other possibilities.

I agree that scientists should come up with the answers but we need to follow what science tells us when it does come up with answers.
Or at least we need to accept that it's scientific facts.

You don't have to use the information or change your grow but you cannot deny the information.

Do you have access to a chromatography system? It'd be exciting to see what your plants consist of compared to other grows.

k0ijn said:

What a great argument..
You can't be bothered to read so you just resort to calling me a geek.....

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Honestly I dont know why you bother to tell you the truth. OK I do actually know why you bother because you want someone who is new to cannabis growing to get some actual pertinent data rather then a bunch of passed down fairy tales that become the popular "solution". I understand that.

But believe me, anyone that wants to find real scientific data will search it out. I was one of those that just believed whatever was the popular grow paradigm. I soon realized that many of those were simply just myths and fairy tales parroted from generations of growers that had the same stupid shit fed to them when they started. It is an endless cycle but it is what it is.

It is easy to decipher when you think about it. Those that fail to even want to let go of their beliefs come with no real arguments, refuse to even consider exploring scientific data that may threaten their beliefs, continue to misrepresent any counter to their belief and become fiercely defense when their belief is threatened.

I mean look at who you are having a discussion with here. They fully admit they are not interested in reading your position because it is too long. So do you really think they would be willing to read a longer, and even more boring, paper on plant botany? They also are not only attacking you, they are attacking anyone else that disagrees with them or states a different position. You cannot have a proper discussion with someone when they can only resort to countering you with every logical fallacy in the book.

akula said:

Honestly I dont know why you bother to tell you the truth. OK I do actually know why you bother because you want someone who is new to cannabis growing to get some actual pertinent data rather then a bunch of passed down fairy tales that become the popular "solution". I understand that.

But believe me, anyone that wants to find real scientific data will search it out. I was one of those that just believed whatever was the popular grow paradigm. I soon realized that many of those were simply just myths and fairy tales parroted from generations of growers that had the same stupid shit fed to them when they started. It is an endless cycle but it is what it is.

It is easy to decipher when you think about it. Those that fail to even want to let go of their beliefs come with no real arguments, refuse to even consider exploring scientific data that may threaten their beliefs, continue to misrepresent any counter to their belief and become fiercely defense when their belief is threatened.

I mean look at who you are having a discussion with here. They fully admit they are not interested in reading your position because it is too long. So do you really think they would be willing to read a longer, and even more boring, paper on plant botany? They also are not only attacking you, they are attacking anyone else that disagrees with them or states a different position. You cannot have a proper discussion with someone when they can only resort to countering you with every logical fallacy in the book.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your view on this and I agree with your reasoning.
But I won't stop making it easier for people to find factual and pertinent information just because a few steadfast believers don't agree with science.
They can hate on me all they want, it won't stop the march of progress.

These kinds of pre-harvest flushing 'discussions' have been going on for years and it never seems to end.
And I agree, it's not a real discussion when one side uses every fallacy in the book.
In many ways it's similar to an argument with a religious fundamentalist.

But I have had people PM me who said they actually learned something from reading the stuff I've written and the books and studies I link and refer to.
Even some who say they have started to take up the discussion with other people because they have real references to quote and real science to back up their statements.
And that makes it all worth it tbh.

We need to get the facts out in the air, no matter how tough it might be.
Same way with religion, we can't let people stifle truth or ignore facts.
Facts matter and so does science, we owe almost everything we take for granted these days to science.

Spreading these studies, publications and relevant books is a good way of showing people the real data.
And in the end it's hopefully worth it.

I dont know if anyones said this yet but i read a while ago on here about this very matter.

One man (former small time crop farmer) said that no one in the farming industry uses any type of flushing agent before harvest, nor do they cut nutrients before they harvest to decrease "nute taste" and would only cut nutrients before harvest to save a few bucks.

I have adopted this mentality and figured if the people who grow our corn, apples, oranges, grapes, and other fruits and vegetables dont do this then what makes marijuana so different? i understand were smoking it but if the "flush theory" was true than we would taste "nutes" in our veggies and fruits, thus making it undesirable, thus causing farmers to "flush" the last few days/weeks.

Although... people who grow corn and other products are concerned about weight and size and total amount of fruit, like any marijuana grower, so those chemicals could be dangerous to us and they put that aside for the increase in profit. in which case if every fruit, veggie, or grain grown without this "flush" would be just as dangerous if not more dangerous than smoking some marijuana that wasnt flushed.

Also think about it like this. Imagine a raw potato, take a big bite out of it. taste anything? maybe some dirt and an offputting taste, lets assume for the time being that these are "chemicals" which they are just not dangerous or taste reducing.

Take that same potato and boil it or steam it until cooked. dont add salt. just boil, rinse, then take a big bite out of it.

It may not taste how you prefer but there is a distinct difference. The "cooking" process is basically an accelerated "curing" by which the starches are converted to other flavorful compounds which make the potato desirable.

So in the end if we could accelerate the rate at which chlorophyll was broken down then we would never have this debate and everyone would just do that to get the best tasting bud... since we cant we can only leave it up to proper growing methods, coupled with steady drying and curing.

Now as for the extended dark exposure, i do it based on small evidence ive found with a strain ive flowerd about a dozen times. It had some effect but then again my tolerence and growing experience has increased over those times so if it does do anything its evened out for me hahaha

but thats just my 2 cents... or 32 cents but either way its my opinion and id love to hear any comments about it. Restart this discussion.

Because its not about whos right or wrong but whats best.

^^
Arjan? Really? The biggest shyster in the business? Lmao.

Don't know if its been posted in this thread, but here's some facts about flushing.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/409622-truth-about-flushing.html

And some facts about Arjan. If he's so awesome, why rig the cup?
http://www.coffeehouseculture.com/E-zine/Issue One/E-zine Pages/Issue One Pages/Page 03/P03PT02.html

Uncle Pirate - yes that's a great cannabis specific paper showing how plant biology and botany discredit the entire practical-practice of pre-harvest flushing. It has also been cycled through cannabis grow forums for years hundreds if not thousands of times. If you are someone that was serious about finding out about the benefits of flushing, you most likely came across it. What does that say about those that still continue to argue that pre-harvest flush is a mandatory practice? That they are not actually researching anything and basing their grow on faith, or they are unable or unwilling to read and comprehend it.

The same goes for your other point Arjan and GHS. Arjan is a marketer and lost his breeder talent, shantibaba, many years ago. Arjan and GHS have been riding on their old rep and the money and time they spend in marketing to stay in the game for many years. The CC is simply a marketing event anyways and the best seed marketing companies win every year and not necessarily always the best strains. So saying you are copying Arjan growing is like saying you are trying to make your high school wrestling team by copying Hulk Hogans moves.

Ok, now Arjan does not know how to grow marijuana? And a bunch of you know more about growing weed than him? You all should be able to win the cub next year. Can't wait.

Rumple said:

Ok, now Arjan does not know how to grow marijuana? And a bunch of you know more about growing weed than him? You all should be able to win the cub next year. Can't wait.

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I know of the scandal about him fixing the Cannabis Cup but I think he still knows how to grow.
I'm not sure if he's to be trusted with anything he says though since he has lied and cheated in the past.

He certainly doesn't have integrity.

Have you guys watched any of green houses grow videos?

I watch em when i get bored and want a little info.

Theyre pretty good but you can tell arjan is trying to sell the shit out of em.

IMO ghs doesnt need that. ive ran a few of there strains (mostly from freebies) and im always surprised at how close they are to what they are describing.

There chemdawg isnt the real chemdawg but it has all the characteristics that they claim it does.

Maybe i just get lucky because i hear alot of freebies dont pop and ive never had a problem with any of em.

Also ill be running ghs KINGS KUSH shortly. and ill be able to dedicate my full time and effort into bring the best out of that.

stop by to see the results in a few weeks/months.

Rumple said:

Ok, now Arjan does not know how to grow marijuana? And a bunch of you know more about growing weed than him? You all should be able to win the cub next year. Can't wait.

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I've met some great growers, i've known some great growers, i've read books from great growers, but there isn't a single one of them that i agree with on every single aspect of growing.

I'm not going to say Arjan is an idiot but just because he says somethings doesn't mean shit to me. I've been doing this long enough, i don't need to follow anyone's lead.. Once you can say that, you won't need to bring other people on your side into your argument...

budbro18 said:

Have you guys watched any of green houses grow videos?

I watch em when i get bored and want a little info.

Theyre pretty good but you can tell arjan is trying to sell the shit out of em.

IMO ghs doesnt need that. ive ran a few of there strains (mostly from freebies) and im always surprised at how close they are to what they are describing.

There chemdawg isnt the real chemdawg but it has all the characteristics that they claim it does.

Maybe i just get lucky because i hear alot of freebies dont pop and ive never had a problem with any of em.

Also ill be running ghs KINGS KUSH shortly. and ill be able to dedicate my full time and effort into bring the best out of that.

stop by to see the results in a few weeks/months.

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their is no way in hell all his plants are as described atleast on their thc and cbd percents and yields. I've watched them grow videos they have on their site they grow from clone and while they claim 20% thc they test their clones and for the most part their just barely breaking 10% thc and they are not growing from seed but clone that right their is enough for me to not buy from them plus they only sell fems and the yields they get in those grow videos are far from what they advertise. they may have some stable seeds but their full of shit for the most part.

A lot depends on who is growing it. Perhaps they know something about growing weed you don't. It is possible.

[I've been doing this long enough, i don't need to follow anyone's lead..
Once you can say that, you won't need to bring other people on your side into your argument...

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I guess I will always be learning from others and asking folks I respect for advice and opinions.
I'm not at your super high level it seems, so I may never be saying the stuff you do (sucks to be me)... but you keep doing what you're doing.
I don't see this as an argument (like you do) I see it as a few growers having some dialog about methods and posting opinions.

K0ijn pretty much covered everything I wanted to say...

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Who brought that name into the argu.. I mean discussion?

Bazinga!